Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:fishmike wrote:BigRedDog wrote:mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential. Still really good data and solid research.
Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.
Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.
From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.
It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.
Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer. For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.
Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.
This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.
That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?
why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.
Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.
We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.
calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.
Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.
if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!
Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.
So the answer is you cant answer the question, or wont. Yes or no, did the Knicks improve the PG spot this offseason? This should not be that hard.
I don't think there is any chance you get a yes or no answer but I will weigh in and maybe a visual example will help get you a response. Yes!
You can't know right now if it will end up being an upgrade since you can't know how healthy Rose will be, what his mindset will bet, etc. At best, it's fair to ask mreinman *how likely* he thinks it is that it will end up being an upgrade, a downgrade, or a wash. Obviously, the future deals with probabilities, not known outcomes.
I think that this concept is too complicated for crush and fish ... yes or no or nothing. Variables, statistics and probabilities are for geeks and freaks, right? YES or NO please 
I am not sure what the percentages are for him becoming a player that is different from the last three years. I think chances are that he will be close to the same and not have a significant improvement and that is IF he stays healthy.
Losing Rolo and Grant for him was a layden move but maybe that is just me ... perhaps I am missing something and he really is a good player and my eyeballs are just missing his intangibles.
so do you sit through life, do nothing at all and then calculate what *might* have been a good decision or not?You know something about basketball? I want your opinion... yes or no. Do you think the Knicks upgraded PG?
Do you navigate your life via statistical analysis? Or do you have you formed any opinions in your years on this Earth? I am interesting in your opinion. Shall I ask the question again?
BTW... your a ****ty dancer 
I think that the trade down graded the team. And, you know exactly where I stand but you are just trying to play dumb jock and do some chest pounding with a 7 2 OS.
This is just cut and paste: If we get current Rose then we down graded and of course you know its not just at PG, we gave away 2 assets to try to hit on 7 2 OS.
But don't worry, as bad as rose plays, Nix will certainly post lots of charts and fluffy data to make the stink smell like roses.
(btw, of course I would have traded Calderon for Rose heads up and I am sure that even you can figure out why (statistically).
Holy avoidance and deflection
not at all, its a stupid non yes/no question.
why is it that only Bonn gets exactly what I am saying?
You and Bonn are not making fully fleshed out arguments! Now you haven't actually commented on the points I'm making in addition to the stats I've posted. I'm not making simplistic arguments. I'm actually looking at the background circumstances behind the stats. You and Bonn are only looking at numbers in a vacuum and dismissing all the other valid but often intangible factors.
In your approach we look at the numbers and totally ignore the extenuating factors. Most players coming off knee surgery and long layoffs tend to underperform. So it's no surprise that Rose struggled coming back from his each time he had surgery. Then add in the layoff from the Facial surgery and double vision before he finally took off the mask and again it makes sense his numbers were bad. None of this proves Rose is now a bad player. It's just logical that dealing with the layoff and double vision messed him up. Now he finally has a full summer for the first time in years to properly prepare. So it's not unreasonable to think that will help him to be better next season.
What context have I ignored? It's the other way around. You're ignoring that some contextual factors like injury history tend to reoccur at high rates. You're looking at the context but then ignoring its relevance to the present.
If you have data or evidence that Rose's misses are helping his team, please post it.
Your comment about Rose playing at a faster pace is worth discussing. In theory, it could help the team but there is also nothing inherently better about playing at a fast pace. You could end up just missing shots more quickly. Do faster paced teams tend to score more efficiently or win more games? If so, do we have specific players that statistically perform better in fast paced offense? Did Rose's teammates put up better numbers with him on than off the floor? Show me all this context that I'm missing. I want evidence not blind speculation. Without it, I'm not impressed by 20 points on 20 shots a game. If you're injured and can't make a shot, do other things to help your team. Don't chuck 20 shots a game if you're hitting at 39.6%.
First of all let's clarify things cuz you're mixing all kinds of factors.
1. No one is suggesting that Rose has played well since his 1st ACL injury and subsequent Meniscus and Orbital surgeries. In each case he's been trying to regain not only his former physical condition but also his skill level. So yes his jumper hasn't been as sharp as it should be but as i've pointed out he's often been coming back to play after an offseason of work that wasn't normal. Rehab is not the same as being healthy enough to actually work on ELITE conditioning. That's why a guy like Melo looked bad when he started the season or back when he came back from injury in the past. It's normal for that to happen to players.
In Rose's case he's been on a long cycle of Surgery and Rehab but not like now where he's finally going into an offseason NOT marred by surgery, where he can work on better conditioning and improve his skills. So NO. No one is suggesting you should be impressed with Rose taking 20 to make 20 pts. The idea is to try and get the best Rose next season. Not the guy this year that was trying to come back ill prepared from another surgery.
2. I did provide some evidence that playing faster as Hornacek intends to have this team play, is the best thing for Rose.
2014-15 Playoffs
Field Goals 2 Point Field Goals 3 Point Field Goals
Shot Clock Range GP G Freq FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq 2FGM 2FGA 2FG% Freq 3PM 3PA 3P%
24-22 12 5 2.1% 0.1 0.4 20.0 20.0 2.1% 0.1 0.4 20.0 0.0% 0.0 0.0 -
22-18 Very Early 12 11 8.5% 0.9 1.7 55.0 62.5 7.3% 0.7 1.4 47.1 1.3% 0.3 0.3 100
18-15 Early 12 11 18.4% 1.7 3.6 46.5 51.2 13.7% 1.3 2.7 50.0 4.7% 0.3 0.9 36.4
15-7 Average 12 12 44.0% 3.1 8.6 35.9 39.3 31.2% 2.5 6.1 41.1 12.8% 0.6 2.5 23.3
7-4 Late 12 10 12.0% 1.0 2.3 42.9 48.2 8.5% 0.8 1.7 45.0 3.4% 0.3 0.7 37.5
4-0 Very Late 12 10 11.5% 0.7 2.3 29.6 38.9 6.8% 0.3 1.3 18.8 4.7% 0.4 0.9 45.5
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/shots/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=PlayoffsWhat Rose needs to do is increase the percentage of Very Early to Early shots he takes and reduce the shots he takes with only 15-7 seconds left. That is going to be not just on him but Hornacek and the rest of the players to run the floor with Rose and get in position to get more Early Offense. This coming season Rose should benefit from being able to have more time for conditioning and skills training and also having a better roster around him. The same goes for Melo and KP as well.
3. People need to stop acting like Rose is simply a bad player, as if he's NEVER played well. I guess we should just forget the MVP level he played at when he was healthy and at peak conditioning and form. This is the best chance he's had since then to actually come into a season prepared rather than dealing with an offseason of mostly rehab and diminished skills and feel from not being able to workout hard and not playing.
4. Hornacek should be a key factor in that he wants to play with more a faster pace, aggressiveness and greater spacing. with the talents of the players on this team that should really have a very positive impact on this team's efficiency. Not to mention a team that has more athletic defenders, which should lead to more fast breaks. Overall my point is that it's not just gonna be one thing that makes a difference next season. It's how all the changes will come together to impact how this team and the individual players perform.
7/15/2016 10:16 AM
