Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are

That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.

His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.

The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.

TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.

Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.

Rose    8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose    2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo   1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant   3.5 Drives at 46%

I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.

There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.

Once again this is where coaching comes in. A lot of this is about the spots players end up in due to the design and focus of the offensive scheme. How Hornacek chooses to use Rose will have a huge impact on his efficiency. It will also help to have talent like Melo and KP out there that teams will have to be concerned with at all times.

Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.

Month	 GP	MIN	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%
October	 3	32.1	5.7 	15.3 	37.0	0.0	1.3	0.0	2.3	3.0	77.8
November 10	32.7	5.4 	15.3 	35.3	0.6	2.6	23.1	1.9	2.4	79.2
December 14	32.9	6.4 	15.4 	41.4	0.7	2.5	28.6	1.9	2.8	66.7
January	 13	30.4	7.4 	15.7 	47.1	0.5	1.8	29.2	2.3	2.4	96.8
February 8	33.1	8.5 	19.4 	43.9	0.8	2.4	31.6	4.1	4.9	84.6
March	 15	30.0	7.1 	15.3 	46.1	1.0	2.5	40.5	1.5	2.1	71.0
April	 3	34.3	5.7 	15.0 	37.8	0.0	1.7	0.0	1.7	2.0	83.3

He had better shooting but not good shooting. I calculated his TS% during that improved stretch a while ago and it was .515 (about 30 points below the league average). He needs to do better than he did during this better portion of last year. I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't expect best case scenarios to unfold in general and I definitely don't with this organization. We'll see. Yeah, it's possible, Nix.

Keep this in mind when looking at Rose's shooting last season. The 1st day of practice and he suffers his injury:

Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose suffered an orbital fracture after being elbowed in the face during practice Tuesday and will require surgery. A timetable for his recovery and return is expected after surgery is complete on Wednesday.

Rose averaged 17.7 points and 4.9 assists last season but missed 31 games in part due to another knee procedure midseason.

If you can't understand how that combination of injuries and missed time could negatively impact his shooting when he came back wearing the mask then I don't know what to say. That would seem to me that you are unwilling to imagine that it set him back and that he's more than capable of improving with a full season of work. He's not coming off of any surgery this summer which should help him tremendously in preparing for next season!!! He hasn't been able to do that in years. I do not accept that this is simply who he is not because i'm not going to ignore the extenuation circumstances of surgeries setting back his ability to work on his conditioning and skills.

Also, on this Knicks team he'll have much better support IMO. He didn't have a Melo or KP for that matter. That will make a difference for him and his presence will help them as teams are much more distracted defensively.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Why I am not pushing for an A+:
Disappointed we couldn't keep DWill. I love reclamation stories and he would have made that bench fairly scary in a proven way at SF, as opposed to some of the hopes and dreams we have now.

Hernangomez/KP
LT
DWill
Holiday
Jennings

To me, that would have been a fairly decent Defensive lineup, along with enough firepower to push some third quarter leads, and/or hold off an opponents third quarter surges.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

So you wouldn't want to trade for this?

Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?

Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.

Player	      Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Derrick Rose  CHI   66	32 34 31.8  8.9	   2.8	5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9  76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6  6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.

OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.

Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.

Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.

Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are

That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.

His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.

The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.

TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.

Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.

Rose    8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose    2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo   1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant   3.5 Drives at 46%

I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.

There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.

Once again this is where coaching comes in. A lot of this is about the spots players end up in due to the design and focus of the offensive scheme. How Hornacek chooses to use Rose will have a huge impact on his efficiency. It will also help to have talent like Melo and KP out there that teams will have to be concerned with at all times.

Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.

Month	 GP	MIN	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%
October	 3	32.1	5.7 	15.3 	37.0	0.0	1.3	0.0	2.3	3.0	77.8
November 10	32.7	5.4 	15.3 	35.3	0.6	2.6	23.1	1.9	2.4	79.2
December 14	32.9	6.4 	15.4 	41.4	0.7	2.5	28.6	1.9	2.8	66.7
January	 13	30.4	7.4 	15.7 	47.1	0.5	1.8	29.2	2.3	2.4	96.8
February 8	33.1	8.5 	19.4 	43.9	0.8	2.4	31.6	4.1	4.9	84.6
March	 15	30.0	7.1 	15.3 	46.1	1.0	2.5	40.5	1.5	2.1	71.0
April	 3	34.3	5.7 	15.0 	37.8	0.0	1.7	0.0	1.7	2.0	83.3

He had better shooting but not good shooting. I calculated his TS% during that improved stretch a while ago and it was .515 (about 30 points below the league average). He needs to do better than he did during this better portion of last year. I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't expect best case scenarios to unfold in general and I definitely don't with this organization. We'll see. Yeah, it's possible, Nix.

I'm attempting to put things in perspective. I don't look at things in a vacuum. I agree Rose's shooting wasn't anything special, but it was progress and that was during the season when it's harder to make that kind of progress. He will have had a FULL offseason to work on his conditioning and shooting technique.

Keep this in mind when looking at Rose's shooting last season. The 1st day of practice and he suffers his injury:

Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose suffered an orbital fracture after being elbowed in the face during practice Tuesday and will require surgery. A timetable for his recovery and return is expected after surgery is complete on Wednesday.

Rose averaged 17.7 points and 4.9 assists last season but missed 31 games in part due to another knee procedure midseason.

If you can't understand how that combination of injuries and missed time could negatively impact his shooting when he came back wearing the mask then I don't know what to say. That would seem to me that you are unwilling to imagine that it set him back and that he's more than capable of improving with a full season of work. He's not coming off of any surgery this summer which should help him tremendously in preparing for next season!!! He hasn't been able to do that in years. I do not accept that this is simply who he is not because i'm not going to ignore the extenuation circumstances of surgeries setting back his ability to work on his conditioning and skills.

Also, on this Knicks team he'll have much better support IMO. He didn't have a Melo or KP for that matter. That will make a difference for him and his presence will help them as teams are much more distracted defensively.

Oh I can imagine anything. I can imagine that he is better than his MVP year. The problem is that an extensive injury history usually doesn't predict future improvement. It usually predicts more injuries.

2011-12 season playoffs, Rose tears his Left ACL 
Misses all of 2012-13. misses 82 games
Comes back in 2013-14. November 2013 tears his Right Meniscus plays in only 10 games
Comes back in 2014-15. Feb 2015 tears Right Meniscus again plays in only 51 games
Comes back in 2015-16. Breaks his Orbital - plays in only 66 games

If you look at Rose's history, he's really only played in 127 out of a possible 328 regular season games! He's had 3 procedures but not a lot of wear and tear over the last 4 years. It's not like he's played a full 82 plus playoffs for 4 straight years and accumulating more wear. IMO people could be overstating the issues because of the missed games, but that doesn't mean the injury history will stop Rose from regaining his form.

The Knicks checked out Rose's Knees and were extremely happy with what they saw. It's possible that Rose can have a bounce back season with a full offseason of conditioning and skills work, minus having to deal with another recent surgery as he's had in the past seasons. He's yet another year removed from the surgery which is often when you see a player start to fully regain their conditioning and strength.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

shinmen wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Exactly. People seem not to quite understand. The PLAN is to WIN. They aren't just gonna be patient with bad players. The entire point of Free Agency is to try and get better QUICKLY!!! Boston adds KG and Allen both at older ages.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

My only reservation is Rose. I fear if he plays good for us, he gets a max contract, the following year the team has potentially 3 injury prone big contracts on the roster for 3 to 4 years. It would set us back 3 years before we can hope to be respectable again.

nixluva wrote:

shinmen wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Exactly. People seem not to quite understand. The PLAN is to WIN. They aren't just gonna be patient with bad players. The entire point of Free Agency is to try and get better QUICKLY!!! Boston adds KG and Allen both at older ages.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

My only reservation is Rose. I fear if he plays good for us, he gets a max contract, the following year the team has potentially 3 injury prone big contracts on the roster for 3 to 4 years. It would set us back 3 years before we can hope to be respectable again.

It's entirely possible that Rose's luck could change and he has a nice stretch of years without another major injury. Gotta see how he looks. Like I said, he hasn't really had much WEAR and TEAR the last 4 years. You have to actually play games to get that. In a weird way his legs could be very fresh next year. Also I don't foresee Rose logging too heavy a workload in the regular season. The key is to get him to the post season strong and health. Horny has enough depth to keep Rose's minutes down.

yes. It is entirely possible, however its improbable (as bonn has tried to explain).

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

shinmen wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Exactly. People seem not to quite understand. The PLAN is to WIN. They aren't just gonna be patient with bad players. The entire point of Free Agency is to try and get better QUICKLY!!! Boston adds KG and Allen both at older ages.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

My only reservation is Rose. I fear if he plays good for us, he gets a max contract, the following year the team has potentially 3 injury prone big contracts on the roster for 3 to 4 years. It would set us back 3 years before we can hope to be respectable again.

It's entirely possible that Rose's luck could change and he has a nice stretch of years without another major injury. Gotta see how he looks. Like I said, he hasn't really had much WEAR and TEAR the last 4 years. You have to actually play games to get that. In a weird way his legs could be very fresh next year. Also I don't foresee Rose logging too heavy a workload in the regular season. The key is to get him to the post season strong and health. Horny has enough depth to keep Rose's minutes down.

yes. It is entirely possible, however its improbable (as bonn has tried to explain).

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

shinmen wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Exactly. People seem not to quite understand. The PLAN is to WIN. They aren't just gonna be patient with bad players. The entire point of Free Agency is to try and get better QUICKLY!!! Boston adds KG and Allen both at older ages.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

My only reservation is Rose. I fear if he plays good for us, he gets a max contract, the following year the team has potentially 3 injury prone big contracts on the roster for 3 to 4 years. It would set us back 3 years before we can hope to be respectable again.

It's entirely possible that Rose's luck could change and he has a nice stretch of years without another major injury. Gotta see how he looks. Like I said, he hasn't really had much WEAR and TEAR the last 4 years. You have to actually play games to get that. In a weird way his legs could be very fresh next year. Also I don't foresee Rose logging too heavy a workload in the regular season. The key is to get him to the post season strong and health. Horny has enough depth to keep Rose's minutes down.

yes. It is entirely possible, however its improbable (as bonn has tried to explain).

We're talking about 2 different things. I think it's highly probable that Rose will have a better season in terms of his shooting efficiency next year. As for his being able to stay healthy that is another issue. As long as we're only talking about minor bumps and bruises then that's OK. We just don't want another major issue requiring surgery and significant time missed. Rose had the face surgery but not another knee surgery so that's good news. Anyone can get smashed in the face and break a bone. That has nothing to do with his knees.

you still danced around this.

Its highly improbably that Rose will return to being a good player.

Is it probable that he will shoot more efficiently next year? Its almost impossible not to ... its like saying that it was probable that the knicks would have a better year last year vs. the (tank) year before.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

shinmen wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

If we got Jennings, kept Lopez and perhaps kept D Williams & maybe still added Courtney Lee - to me, that might have been the kind of incremental improvement we needed, get to 40 wins+/- and then add a late lottery/Mid 1st round pick to the mix for the following year, and then maybe be in play for Westbrook.

And then the play off drive starts then.

But, hey, we're just keyboard GMs.

So you think a 40 win roster is going to entice Westbrook? Cmon man... you are just not watching the NBA or paying attention.

However I have a simple retort, and I asked Bonn this in another thread and he ducked it. If you believe in incremental improvement I have a very simple question. Knicks win 41 games with this roster next year. Based on your expectation that is a successful correct?

I am probably naive to think before these moves we had a shot at Westbrook. I'd like to think if we had a solid foundation with parts that were in place playing a system, and improving- that and max dollars might be enough.

But I'm not a swing for the fences thinker, not with our franchise as it stands with the base of talent.

That is why to answer your question - if the Knicks win 41 games with this roster, no, I don't judge that successful. It needs to be better. Phil has gone all in (minus future draft picks, at this stage) and gambled in a big way, turning over the roster for what, the 5th or 6th time in the last 5/6 years?

He's signed Noah & Lee to big money. Melo, Noah & Lee together take up 55% of our cap. I just think that is unbalanced and creates issues down the line when these players at the wrong side of their athletic careers start to inevitably break down.

To me, with the moves Phil has made, he better win more than 41 games and they better make the play offs.

Based on the talent and resources we had, I felt we weren't anywhere close to being able to be in a win now position.

And worse, this franchise has been stuck in the dump because our owner has had a win now at any and all cost mentality.

Look, I like Phil and I like that he has pushed Dolan out of the picture. I just don't like I see what appears to be a repeat of past sins.

On paper, this squad looks improved. But we've thought and said that before.

Phil has gone all in by sacrificing what? Grant and Lopez and Calderon? Those are the player you are holding against Phil's "ALL IN?"

I am sorry man, but that doesn't hold any water to with at all. I mean you are literally saying if we traded Lopez, Grant and Jose well we better be good! As far as the roster turnover who are the guys you lament losing? We didn't add win now players. Willy is signed for 4 years (rookie). Kuz is signed for 2 years (26 year old 4x all star in EU). Jennings and Rose are rentals with an option to buy and Rose/Jennings/Lee/Holiday replaces Jose/Langston/Grant/Afflalo.

Sorry I need you to better explain what was sacrificed for this team to be excluded from your incremental is good plan.

You are right.. the roster has been flipped 3x. Its a rebuild. First time was a cleanse and the last two both times the team got better. Much better.

Exactly. People seem not to quite understand. The PLAN is to WIN. They aren't just gonna be patient with bad players. The entire point of Free Agency is to try and get better QUICKLY!!! Boston adds KG and Allen both at older ages.

Champion 2007-08 Celtics

Rk	Player	         Age ▾	G	GS	MP	
1	Paul Pierce	 30	80	80	2874
2	Ray Allen	 32	73	73	2624
3	Kevin Garnett	 31	71	71	2328
4	Rajon Rondo	 21	77	77	2306
5	Kendrick Perkins 23	78	78	1912
6	James Posey	 31	74	2	1821
7	Eddie House	 29	78	2	1480
8	Tony Allen	 26	75	11	1373
9	Brian Scalabrine 29	48	9	512
10	Leon Powe	 24	56	5	809
11	Glen Davis	 22	69	1	940
12	Sam Cassell	 38	17	1	299
13	P.J. Brown	 38	18	0	209
14	Scot Pollard	 32	22	0	173

This isn't some wild and unprecedented approach. Phil has himself had teams with a similar structure and age ratio MANY times in his career.

My only reservation is Rose. I fear if he plays good for us, he gets a max contract, the following year the team has potentially 3 injury prone big contracts on the roster for 3 to 4 years. It would set us back 3 years before we can hope to be respectable again.

It's entirely possible that Rose's luck could change and he has a nice stretch of years without another major injury. Gotta see how he looks. Like I said, he hasn't really had much WEAR and TEAR the last 4 years. You have to actually play games to get that. In a weird way his legs could be very fresh next year. Also I don't foresee Rose logging too heavy a workload in the regular season. The key is to get him to the post season strong and health. Horny has enough depth to keep Rose's minutes down.

yes. It is entirely possible, however its improbable (as bonn has tried to explain).

We're talking about 2 different things. I think it's highly probable that Rose will have a better season in terms of his shooting efficiency next year. As for his being able to stay healthy that is another issue. As long as we're only talking about minor bumps and bruises then that's OK. We just don't want another major issue requiring surgery and significant time missed. Rose had the face surgery but not another knee surgery so that's good news. Anyone can get smashed in the face and break a bone. That has nothing to do with his knees.

you still danced around this.

Its highly improbably that Rose will return to being a good player.

Is it probable that he will shoot more efficiently next year? Its almost impossible not to ... its like saying that it was probable that the knicks would have a better year last year vs. the (tank) year before.

Can he stay healthy enough to play well and make it to the postseason? That is obviously the big question and separate from his ability to improve over the summer.