fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

The money is meaningless at this point. Why people keep going back to this is beyond me. Rose won't stop the Knicks from adding whatever talent they need this summer. They still have over $30 mil of cap to work with. That should be enough to add a couple of solid FA's that fill our needs a SG and C.

Not talking about this summer. Im talking about what happens if Rose signs a max deal and his production ends up being close to what we have seen the last 4 years, namely him being one of the worst if not the worst PG in the league.

Whatever the max will be, 25-30 million a year in cap room for 5 years would be flushed down the toilet. We couldnt make the playoffs year after year in part because Curry's contract was dead cap space. That cap room could not be used to upgrade the roster.

don't think that will happen.

I am worried if Rose has a decent year and we max him based on weak fools gold.

So if Rose is an all star next year better to let him walk? Just part ways to be safe?

walk vs. max? I don't give him the max unless he wins the mvp

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

and for every grant hill story there are 20 Brandon Roy's.

We aren't locked into Rose long term so it's really just a case of Rose proving he can still do it. The Knicks need him to pick up his efficiency at the rim and from 3. I'm pretty darned sure that's what they'll be working with him on the rest of this summer. Shooting is a skill that Rose can improve on with work. We're not looking for him to suddenly become Steph Curry. Just make decent improvement. If he can get his 3pt% up to about 34% that would be good. He doesn't have to be great just solid. Hornacek is an Analytics guy and will work with Rose to understand where he's most efficient. Hornacek is also a shooting coach and perhaps he's able to help his players in that regard as well.

so this will be the first time that he will work with a shooting coach? No one else cared that he can't shoot?

I don't understand you and your negative take at all. You should be jumping for Joy over Hornacek but your jaded and negative take doesn't allow you to even recognize a victory when you have it. Hornacek is a fully modern coach. We know he's going to use every tool available to try and help our team become more efficient.

Who knows what and who Rose worked with in the past? I do know who we have as our head Coach now and what he focuses on. Perhaps you simply don't respect that but Hornacek clearly is what you claim to believe in. He applies Analytics and maybe he'll be more successful working with Rose than some others have been.

Hornacek told Arizona Sports 98.7 FM that ball movement will improve once his players commit to placing the pass above the shot on their collective list of priorities.

“When we do drive or make a quick move, [I'd like] the pass comes out there quicker for somebody else," Hornacek said. "I think we take one or two more extra dribbles and then we try to pass out. We could move it quicker."

The Suns are not quite as reluctant sharing the ball as their assist numbers make it appear. Phoenix ranks 18th in the league in passes per game, according to SportVU tracking. Again, there is plenty of room for improvement, but it also shows the assist numbers are a little more about shot-making and a little less about an aversion to sharing.

“We’re in the middle of the pack," Hornacek said. "We have the analytics and SportsVU cameras that show the amount of passes…we’re not great at it and that’s what we want to strive for, is to move the ball.”

Analytics have also helped Hornacek good option for two-man games, knowledge that is essential in his guard-centric, pick-and-roll offense. He admitted that the information analytics provide can sometimes overwhelm with possibilities and information, but that they've been revealing both for him and his players.

“There’s a lot of good stuff in there and it’s stuff we can use with the players," Hornacek said. "For example, they think they’re great one-on-one players, but if you show them that they’re shooting 37 percent, then they say, ‘oh, well okay. Maybe I’m not.’”

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/arizona-sports-hornacek-talks-passing-analytics

I like Hornacek but I don't think that he is a magician.

IMO it doesn't take much to raise a shooting % up from bad to solid. The difference is often a couple more made shots and the type of shots you take has a HUGE impact on the efficiency. Hornacek tries to help his players to focus on what will help them be most efficient and he tailors plays to help foster that. Also Horny mentioned working with Rose on his leg strength which most likely is the biggest reason for his poor 3pt shooting the last 2 years. Getting Rose up to about 34% from 29% seems reasonably achievable to me. No Magic Necessary.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

The money is meaningless at this point. Why people keep going back to this is beyond me. Rose won't stop the Knicks from adding whatever talent they need this summer. They still have over $30 mil of cap to work with. That should be enough to add a couple of solid FA's that fill our needs a SG and C.

Not talking about this summer. Im talking about what happens if Rose signs a max deal and his production ends up being close to what we have seen the last 4 years, namely him being one of the worst if not the worst PG in the league.

Whatever the max will be, 25-30 million a year in cap room for 5 years would be flushed down the toilet. We couldnt make the playoffs year after year in part because Curry's contract was dead cap space. That cap room could not be used to upgrade the roster.

don't think that will happen.

I am worried if Rose has a decent year and we max him based on weak fools gold.

So if Rose is an all star next year better to let him walk? Just part ways to be safe?

walk vs. max? I don't give him the max unless he wins the mvp

Oh... and the Knick win 50 games, lose in the conf finals to the Cavs and Rose is an all star. You let him walk just roll the dice you can get a guy in FA?

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

and for every grant hill story there are 20 Brandon Roy's.

We aren't locked into Rose long term so it's really just a case of Rose proving he can still do it. The Knicks need him to pick up his efficiency at the rim and from 3. I'm pretty darned sure that's what they'll be working with him on the rest of this summer. Shooting is a skill that Rose can improve on with work. We're not looking for him to suddenly become Steph Curry. Just make decent improvement. If he can get his 3pt% up to about 34% that would be good. He doesn't have to be great just solid. Hornacek is an Analytics guy and will work with Rose to understand where he's most efficient. Hornacek is also a shooting coach and perhaps he's able to help his players in that regard as well.

so this will be the first time that he will work with a shooting coach? No one else cared that he can't shoot?

I don't understand you and your negative take at all. You should be jumping for Joy over Hornacek but your jaded and negative take doesn't allow you to even recognize a victory when you have it. Hornacek is a fully modern coach. We know he's going to use every tool available to try and help our team become more efficient.

Who knows what and who Rose worked with in the past? I do know who we have as our head Coach now and what he focuses on. Perhaps you simply don't respect that but Hornacek clearly is what you claim to believe in. He applies Analytics and maybe he'll be more successful working with Rose than some others have been.

Hornacek told Arizona Sports 98.7 FM that ball movement will improve once his players commit to placing the pass above the shot on their collective list of priorities.

“When we do drive or make a quick move, [I'd like] the pass comes out there quicker for somebody else," Hornacek said. "I think we take one or two more extra dribbles and then we try to pass out. We could move it quicker."

The Suns are not quite as reluctant sharing the ball as their assist numbers make it appear. Phoenix ranks 18th in the league in passes per game, according to SportVU tracking. Again, there is plenty of room for improvement, but it also shows the assist numbers are a little more about shot-making and a little less about an aversion to sharing.

“We’re in the middle of the pack," Hornacek said. "We have the analytics and SportsVU cameras that show the amount of passes…we’re not great at it and that’s what we want to strive for, is to move the ball.”

Analytics have also helped Hornacek good option for two-man games, knowledge that is essential in his guard-centric, pick-and-roll offense. He admitted that the information analytics provide can sometimes overwhelm with possibilities and information, but that they've been revealing both for him and his players.

“There’s a lot of good stuff in there and it’s stuff we can use with the players," Hornacek said. "For example, they think they’re great one-on-one players, but if you show them that they’re shooting 37 percent, then they say, ‘oh, well okay. Maybe I’m not.’”

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/arizona-sports-hornacek-talks-passing-analytics

I like Hornacek but I don't think that he is a magician.

IMO it doesn't take much to raise a shooting % up from bad to solid. The difference is often a couple more made shots and the type of shots you take has a HUGE impact on the efficiency. Hornacek tries to help his players to focus on what will help them be most efficient and he tailors plays to help foster that. Also Horny mentioned working with Rose on his leg strength which most likely is the biggest reason for his poor 3pt shooting the last 2 years. Getting Rose up to about 34% from 29% seems reasonably achievable to me. No Magic Necessary.

why can't rondo do this? Wade? Derozen? MCW?

you make it like its simple ... work out the legs, press a couple of buttons and voila!

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

The money is meaningless at this point. Why people keep going back to this is beyond me. Rose won't stop the Knicks from adding whatever talent they need this summer. They still have over $30 mil of cap to work with. That should be enough to add a couple of solid FA's that fill our needs a SG and C.

Not talking about this summer. Im talking about what happens if Rose signs a max deal and his production ends up being close to what we have seen the last 4 years, namely him being one of the worst if not the worst PG in the league.

Whatever the max will be, 25-30 million a year in cap room for 5 years would be flushed down the toilet. We couldnt make the playoffs year after year in part because Curry's contract was dead cap space. That cap room could not be used to upgrade the roster.

don't think that will happen.

I am worried if Rose has a decent year and we max him based on weak fools gold.

So if Rose is an all star next year better to let him walk? Just part ways to be safe?

walk vs. max? I don't give him the max unless he wins the mvp

Well, sure. Jose Calderon will be a free agent and the advanced metrics prove he's a better player, so you want to have that money available

don't forget Amare... the WS/48 KING. We could resign them both for a reunion tour

WS48 misses the mark badly on defense. I said that numerous times by keep kindergartening

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

The money is meaningless at this point. Why people keep going back to this is beyond me. Rose won't stop the Knicks from adding whatever talent they need this summer. They still have over $30 mil of cap to work with. That should be enough to add a couple of solid FA's that fill our needs a SG and C.

Not talking about this summer. Im talking about what happens if Rose signs a max deal and his production ends up being close to what we have seen the last 4 years, namely him being one of the worst if not the worst PG in the league.

Whatever the max will be, 25-30 million a year in cap room for 5 years would be flushed down the toilet. We couldnt make the playoffs year after year in part because Curry's contract was dead cap space. That cap room could not be used to upgrade the roster.

don't think that will happen.

I am worried if Rose has a decent year and we max him based on weak fools gold.

So if Rose is an all star next year better to let him walk? Just part ways to be safe?

walk vs. max? I don't give him the max unless he wins the mvp

so if he plays 72 games next year and puts up 20ppg/8assists and has a WS/48 of .160 you let him walk for nothing and had it over to Langston? Or you pay him 5/$100? (big money, short of max)

Oh... and the Knick win 50 games, lose in the conf finals to the Cavs and Rose is an all star. You let him walk just roll the dice you can get a guy in FA?

thats not max but would be a tough call. I would possibly pay him if he met a number of requirements but I just don't think that he will return to that player. I am assuming / hoping that he will be somewhat better in a contract year but still well below average and no where near a WS of .160.

I much prefer deciding what talent is worth paying for than wondering how to get it in the first place!

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

and for every grant hill story there are 20 Brandon Roy's.

We aren't locked into Rose long term so it's really just a case of Rose proving he can still do it. The Knicks need him to pick up his efficiency at the rim and from 3. I'm pretty darned sure that's what they'll be working with him on the rest of this summer. Shooting is a skill that Rose can improve on with work. We're not looking for him to suddenly become Steph Curry. Just make decent improvement. If he can get his 3pt% up to about 34% that would be good. He doesn't have to be great just solid. Hornacek is an Analytics guy and will work with Rose to understand where he's most efficient. Hornacek is also a shooting coach and perhaps he's able to help his players in that regard as well.

so this will be the first time that he will work with a shooting coach? No one else cared that he can't shoot?

I don't understand you and your negative take at all. You should be jumping for Joy over Hornacek but your jaded and negative take doesn't allow you to even recognize a victory when you have it. Hornacek is a fully modern coach. We know he's going to use every tool available to try and help our team become more efficient.

Who knows what and who Rose worked with in the past? I do know who we have as our head Coach now and what he focuses on. Perhaps you simply don't respect that but Hornacek clearly is what you claim to believe in. He applies Analytics and maybe he'll be more successful working with Rose than some others have been.

Hornacek told Arizona Sports 98.7 FM that ball movement will improve once his players commit to placing the pass above the shot on their collective list of priorities.

“When we do drive or make a quick move, [I'd like] the pass comes out there quicker for somebody else," Hornacek said. "I think we take one or two more extra dribbles and then we try to pass out. We could move it quicker."

The Suns are not quite as reluctant sharing the ball as their assist numbers make it appear. Phoenix ranks 18th in the league in passes per game, according to SportVU tracking. Again, there is plenty of room for improvement, but it also shows the assist numbers are a little more about shot-making and a little less about an aversion to sharing.

“We’re in the middle of the pack," Hornacek said. "We have the analytics and SportsVU cameras that show the amount of passes…we’re not great at it and that’s what we want to strive for, is to move the ball.”

Analytics have also helped Hornacek good option for two-man games, knowledge that is essential in his guard-centric, pick-and-roll offense. He admitted that the information analytics provide can sometimes overwhelm with possibilities and information, but that they've been revealing both for him and his players.

“There’s a lot of good stuff in there and it’s stuff we can use with the players," Hornacek said. "For example, they think they’re great one-on-one players, but if you show them that they’re shooting 37 percent, then they say, ‘oh, well okay. Maybe I’m not.’”

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/arizona-sports-hornacek-talks-passing-analytics

I like Hornacek but I don't think that he is a magician.

IMO it doesn't take much to raise a shooting % up from bad to solid. The difference is often a couple more made shots and the type of shots you take has a HUGE impact on the efficiency. Hornacek tries to help his players to focus on what will help them be most efficient and he tailors plays to help foster that. Also Horny mentioned working with Rose on his leg strength which most likely is the biggest reason for his poor 3pt shooting the last 2 years. Getting Rose up to about 34% from 29% seems reasonably achievable to me. No Magic Necessary.

why can't rondo do this? Wade? Derozen? MCW?

you make it like its simple ... work out the legs, press a couple of buttons and voila!

So are you saying you didn't see how the Morris twins, Knight, or how he developed Archie Goodwin?

JH is a quality coach but my goodness.

Guys with a problem shot have to work on the new shot until it becomes automatic so that they don't revert to bad habits when under pressure or tired.

I think the best thing a coach can do, besides tinkering with mechanics in the off season, is to put players into the right mindset, and give them situations where they take high % shots which they have practiced on.

The real issue is taking a financial gamble on someone with the belief that they will do something with you that they've not done in the past... for some that might be shooting...for others that might be remaining healthy.

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.

Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.

Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.

Thing is, the Suns weren't paying Hill the max.

and for every grant hill story there are 20 Brandon Roy's.

We aren't locked into Rose long term so it's really just a case of Rose proving he can still do it. The Knicks need him to pick up his efficiency at the rim and from 3. I'm pretty darned sure that's what they'll be working with him on the rest of this summer. Shooting is a skill that Rose can improve on with work. We're not looking for him to suddenly become Steph Curry. Just make decent improvement. If he can get his 3pt% up to about 34% that would be good. He doesn't have to be great just solid. Hornacek is an Analytics guy and will work with Rose to understand where he's most efficient. Hornacek is also a shooting coach and perhaps he's able to help his players in that regard as well.

so this will be the first time that he will work with a shooting coach? No one else cared that he can't shoot?

I don't understand you and your negative take at all. You should be jumping for Joy over Hornacek but your jaded and negative take doesn't allow you to even recognize a victory when you have it. Hornacek is a fully modern coach. We know he's going to use every tool available to try and help our team become more efficient.

Who knows what and who Rose worked with in the past? I do know who we have as our head Coach now and what he focuses on. Perhaps you simply don't respect that but Hornacek clearly is what you claim to believe in. He applies Analytics and maybe he'll be more successful working with Rose than some others have been.

Hornacek told Arizona Sports 98.7 FM that ball movement will improve once his players commit to placing the pass above the shot on their collective list of priorities.

“When we do drive or make a quick move, [I'd like] the pass comes out there quicker for somebody else," Hornacek said. "I think we take one or two more extra dribbles and then we try to pass out. We could move it quicker."

The Suns are not quite as reluctant sharing the ball as their assist numbers make it appear. Phoenix ranks 18th in the league in passes per game, according to SportVU tracking. Again, there is plenty of room for improvement, but it also shows the assist numbers are a little more about shot-making and a little less about an aversion to sharing.

“We’re in the middle of the pack," Hornacek said. "We have the analytics and SportsVU cameras that show the amount of passes…we’re not great at it and that’s what we want to strive for, is to move the ball.”

Analytics have also helped Hornacek good option for two-man games, knowledge that is essential in his guard-centric, pick-and-roll offense. He admitted that the information analytics provide can sometimes overwhelm with possibilities and information, but that they've been revealing both for him and his players.

“There’s a lot of good stuff in there and it’s stuff we can use with the players," Hornacek said. "For example, they think they’re great one-on-one players, but if you show them that they’re shooting 37 percent, then they say, ‘oh, well okay. Maybe I’m not.’”

http://www.nba.com/suns/blog/arizona-sports-hornacek-talks-passing-analytics

I like Hornacek but I don't think that he is a magician.

IMO it doesn't take much to raise a shooting % up from bad to solid. The difference is often a couple more made shots and the type of shots you take has a HUGE impact on the efficiency. Hornacek tries to help his players to focus on what will help them be most efficient and he tailors plays to help foster that. Also Horny mentioned working with Rose on his leg strength which most likely is the biggest reason for his poor 3pt shooting the last 2 years. Getting Rose up to about 34% from 29% seems reasonably achievable to me. No Magic Necessary.

why can't rondo do this? Wade? Derozen? MCW?

you make it like its simple ... work out the legs, press a couple of buttons and voila!

So are you saying you didn't see how the Morris twins, Knight, or how he developed Archie Goodwin?

JH is a quality coach but my goodness.

Not easy to make someone into a good shooter, although it has happened.

Guys with a problem shot have to work on the new shot until it becomes automatic so that they don't revert to bad habits when under pressure or tired.

I think the best thing a coach can do, besides tinkering with mechanics in the off season, is to put players into the right mindset, and give them situations where they take high % shots which they have practiced on.

The real issue is taking a financial gamble on someone with the belief that they will do something with you that they've not done in the past... for some that might be shooting...for others that might be remaining healthy.

good point. It seemed Xavier McDaniel used to shoot from just one spot for anything beyond a few feet from the rim (not that he's the poster child of what you want to be, but it was smart for him)