Finestrg wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Seems like a little complacency is setting in now after the Rose trade.

You mean since Wednesday afternoon?

You think complacency has set in over the last 48 hours?

The draft came and went and even though we didn't have a pick, I full expected we were going to get aggressive and buy a pick.

I'm not attempting nor would I be inclined to argue you didn't have personal expectations. The question at hand is the relevancy of those personal expectations.

These picks were available -- pick 38 went to GS for $2.4mm. Pick 54 went to the Cavs for the same amount of money, $2.4mm. Hard to accept the two best teams in the league being more aggressive than my ****ty team.

Maybe the Knicks organization simply disagree with you regarding the value or utility of players available?

This is what's become of every community on every topic in the world. Someone simply disagrees with you and some wrong is being committed.

Maybe they just disagreed with you. Maybe Baker is who they wanted. Maybe they've called players and offered them SL deals and the players chose other teams. As you say, your team is "****ty". Perhaps the Knicks are every undrafted player's first and only choice.

You don't need to get angry or pissed off every time the exact thing you wanted to happen doesn't happen.

You can disagree with me all you want, buddy. The fact that you said 'I'm off the reservation' along with your snide way of talking to me is where this went off the rails quickly and what I took umbrage with. You talk like that to me, I don't care who the F you are, count on a response. That's the wrong that was committed. Just no need for that but that's OK.. I don't talk like that to anyone on here. And then you look to carry on an argument just to argue...I've been down this road before with you--I know how you operate.

You already agreed that the summer league/Olympic thing was an overreaction, which is what my "off the reservation" comment was in reference to. So what are we talking about now? That i didn't tell you that you were overreacting in the proper way?

And you missed the point. I'm not even talking about your getting angry or pissed off at me. You can respond to me any which way you like. All the same to me.

i was referring to being "pissed" about what you perceive is the lack of Knicks action.

The irony here is you want to cast criticism and accusations at Jackson and the Knicks. But the second anyone turns a critical eye on you, you get defensive.

I speak to and of fans here they same way fans here speak of NBA players and coaches and GMs and presidents and refs.

Why is that a problem?

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Seems like a little complacency is setting in now after the Rose trade.

You mean since Wednesday afternoon?

You think complacency has set in over the last 48 hours?

The draft came and went and even though we didn't have a pick, I full expected we were going to get aggressive and buy a pick.

I'm not attempting nor would I be inclined to argue you didn't have personal expectations. The question at hand is the relevancy of those personal expectations.

These picks were available -- pick 38 went to GS for $2.4mm. Pick 54 went to the Cavs for the same amount of money, $2.4mm. Hard to accept the two best teams in the league being more aggressive than my ****ty team.

Maybe the Knicks organization simply disagree with you regarding the value or utility of players available?

This is what's become of every community on every topic in the world. Someone simply disagrees with you and some wrong is being committed.

Maybe they just disagreed with you. Maybe Baker is who they wanted. Maybe they've called players and offered them SL deals and the players chose other teams. As you say, your team is "****ty". Perhaps the Knicks are every undrafted player's first and only choice.

You don't need to get angry or pissed off every time the exact thing you wanted to happen doesn't happen.

You can disagree with me all you want, buddy. The fact that you said 'I'm off the reservation' along with your snide way of talking to me is where this went off the rails quickly and what I took umbrage with. You talk like that to me, I don't care who the F you are, count on a response. That's the wrong that was committed. Just no need for that but that's OK.. I don't talk like that to anyone on here. And then you look to carry on an argument just to argue...I've been down this road before with you--I know how you operate.

you didn't like his delivery and I understand your reasons, but the point remains. Knick bought picks last year. Knicks worked out a ton of guys. If they did nothing why is it a failure? If they thought there was a guy worth paying $2mm for he would be a Knick, like Willy will be a Knick.

Its impossible to say "good job Knicks for not overpaying to get picks you don't believe in" because we don't know what the Knicks plan is, or what their next move is or what they may need that money for. You are saying the Knicks phucked up and failed here, when it simply appears they didn't see anything worth it. The test will be in how they fill out the roster.

The point is you are saying the Knicks failed and screwed up. The reality is simply that you disagree with their choices, or lack of choices.

This reminds me a bit of the epic mistake in not signing NDour last summer. Hey, there is always this year for that also

Great post. There's no failure here, sometimes urges just what you don't do that counts.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:An even sadder thing for our SL team...Hernangomez will be with the Spanish Olympic team-I read that he would not be in Orlando.

Jesus...Why???

I mean what's going on here? We make this move for Derrick Rose, then completely take our foot off the gas pedal.

Really? Cmon man....stop complaining just to complain and think about it. Training for Olympics vs Orlando Summer league. Yeah the Knicks are dropping the ball by not forcing him to come play in the Summer League.

I don't complain just to complain, man, gimmie a break. Seems like a little complacency is setting in now after the Rose trade. I hope that's not the case...I wanted to see Willy here with the team this summer. I understand there's a lot to it though and that playing for his country in the Olympics is a great honor--I'll get over it. We do need him in here eventually though. Rumor has it that we offered him a contract and I don't think he's accepted yet. Hopefully Phil isn't lowballing or Willy's not unrealistically holding out for too much money--either would annoy me... What gets me more is not getting one of the PGs I had targeted for us late in this draft. They were all available. If you don't feel the same way, fine, but this is how I feel. What do you want me to tell ya? I think Cat Barber could wind up being the 2nd best PG in this draft class, with an outside shot of being even better than Kris Dunn. That's how high I am on him. Time will tell.

Finestrg, you need to really get to the details of how things happen in the NBA and not just blindly complain, and yes you are complaining without even thinking. First on the Willy Olympic thing, that's a no-brainer that most other posters know about.

And then the offer to Willy. NBA teams can start feeling each other out but contracts can't be offered and signed until like July 1.

Was gonna let this go but it deserves a reply, just on how you spoke to me alone -- I really don't think of myself as a guy who 'blindly complains without even thinking.' Not the case and you know what, Martin -- I didn't care for being spoken to like I'm some little kid. I know I've told you that before...The Willy Olympic thing was a dead issue--at least I thought it was until you brought it up again. Maybe take a sec. next time and review the previous posts to see what's a dead issue or not and what's worth belaboring or not, ok? Thanks. If you must know, what had happened was I didn't read Walt's initial comments on the matter thoroughly enough before responding and had an immediate knee-jerk reaction to finding out Willy won't be here for SL, on the heels of being disappointed we didn't pick up a 2nd round pick, something we were all told the team was looking to pursue (I consider Willy a big frontcourt piece for next season, possibly even our starting 5 now that RoLo's gone and want him acclimated asap). A mistake, granted and admitted, but come on man, you can't tell me you, your brother Andy, knickoftime or any of my other buddies on here have never been guilty of the same thing. I'll try to be more careful -- God forbid I ever trip up and make a mistake on here, I understand I have no leeway with a select few of you. LOL

The other issues I raised I fully stand by -- (1) like I said, LET'S HOPE Phil doesn't lowball Willy on a contract offer OR Willy doesn't hold out for an unrealistic contract. That's not something that's unreasonable to feel or express imo. As far as I know from what I read going back about a week or two ago, Willy was offered a contract but has yet to sign. Glad to hear his agent saying recently that he expects it to happen soon, but the man has not yet signed on the dotted line. Makes me wonder what could be holding that up, that's all. Could be one of several reasons...And I may be wrong but he's not technically a FA, right? He's a draft pick we acquired in a draft-night trade last year and as such, may not be governed by the same rules pertaining to FAs, when you can talk to them, negotiate with them etc.. Maybe that's why we heard several days back that there was a contract offer on the table for Willy and he was mulling it over, yet no mention of any tampering charges levied against Phil). I may be wrong about that and don't profess to know every detail about everything NBA (no one on this board does. Do you? Do you know for certain Willy can't sign a contract until July 1st?), and (2) I firmly believe not acquiring a 2nd round pick or jumping all over the better, more well-known UDFAs was indeed a mistake, esp. when you consider how out of hand some of these FA contracts could get. Look at the Noah to Washington rumor -- legit or BS, who knows, but what it does affirm is that FA could get well out of hand quickly. I think it would've been a good idea to try to mine some good cheap talent from this draft one way or another but hey, that's me.

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A mistake, granted and admitted, but come on man, you can't tell me you, your brother Andy, knickoftime or any of my other buddies on here have never been guilty of the same thing.

Nope, I was mistaken and corrected yesterday and simply acknowledged it, rather than getting offended the person corrected me.

The other issues I raised I fully stand by -- (1) like I said, LET'S HOPE Phil doesn't lowball Willy on a contract offer OR Willy doesn't hold out for an unrealistic contract. That's not something that's unreasonable to feel or express imo.

But why go immediately to negative version of the outcome? It it "unreasonable"... maybe not? Entirely unnecessary, I'd say so.

But more importantly....

Hernangomez is free to sign with the Knicks at any time. That's true.

But only sort of.

Second round picks do not have cap exception slots like first rounders. Teams are limited to what they can sign second round picks by cap space (most sign for minimum salaries, which as you know is NOT subject to the cap, making the issue moot most of the time.

So unless Hernangomez agrees to sign for the minimum (which would be the literal definition of Jackson lowballing him, which you don't want) prior to July 8 2016 he can only sign for what the Knicks have left in *2015-16* cap space or exceptions.

They are over the cap and have none left as far as i know.

2016-17 business has not begun yet.

They do not get the new cap space until after it rises on July 8 (conclusion of the July moratorium) and/or they renounce the cap holds to players like Afflalo, which they also cannot do until July 8.

In other, shorter words, if Hernangomez wants and the Knicks want to pay him for the the rookie minimum, they can't until July 8.

And even if this all weren't the case, they hold his exclusive rights, training cap doesn't start until the fall and the Olympics is a legitimate event in the player's immediate future.

To assume that something is wrong because he hasn't signed yet is an overreaction and again, just unnecessary.

I may be wrong about that and don't profess to know every detail about everything NBA (no one on this board does.

Indeed, but it's pretty easy to get an answer to any questions like they ones you have answered.

and (2) I firmly believe not acquiring a 2nd round pick or jumping all over the better, more well-known UDFAs was indeed a mistake, esp. when you consider how out of hand some of these FA contracts could get. Look at the Noah to Washington rumor -- legit or BS, who knows, but what it does affirm is that FA could get well out of hand quickly. I think it would've been a good idea to try to mine some good cheap talent from this draft one way or another but hey, that's me.

The Noah-Washington rumor doesn't affirm jack. We know the cap was going up significantly and we had a pretty good the affect it'd have on the market. That rumor was a non-event.

But again, you're reacting to things you don't know, the literal, not pejorative definition of reacting out of ignorance. No one knows if the Knicks tried to sign some of the UDFA YOU personally, subjectively value. They may have jumped all over one of the players YOU personally, subjectively value and they might have said no.

And I don't know why the Knicks didn't pick in the second round. Maybe they tried and were rebuffed. Maybe they didn't try because they didn't like anyone that much.

But what I know is in 2 prior years, Jackson picked in the 2nd round 3 times, and last year acquired a pick in the 1st round.

Now you and I obviously disagree on the imperative of paying $2.5m+ (that can be used in others ways) for what's effectively a scratch-off lottery ticket as a matter of 15-man roster building, but the facts suggest the Knicks have been and were engaged in the draft process.

But it didn't go your way and you immediately turned to the Knicks had gotten "complacent" on Thursday night after acquiring Rose on Wednesday. Since the Knicks didn't do exactly what you didn't want them to do, you accused them of dereliction of duty, of sleeping on the job.

And then you immediately turn around and get offended that people here weren't speaking to you nicely enough.

I don't get it...

Finestrg wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Finestrg wrote:A mistake, granted and admitted, but come on man, you can't tell me you, your brother Andy, knickoftime or any of my other buddies on here have never been guilty of the same thing.

Nope, I was mistaken and corrected yesterday and simply acknowledged it, rather than getting offended the person corrected me.

The other issues I raised I fully stand by -- (1) like I said, LET'S HOPE Phil doesn't lowball Willy on a contract offer OR Willy doesn't hold out for an unrealistic contract. That's not something that's unreasonable to feel or express imo.

But why go immediately to negative version of the outcome? It it "unreasonable"... maybe not? Entirely unnecessary, I'd say so.

But more importantly....

Hernangomez is free to sign with the Knicks at any time. That's true.

But only sort of.

Second round picks do not have cap exception slots like first rounders. Teams are limited to what they can sign second round picks by cap space (most sign for minimum salaries, which as you know is NOT subject to the cap, making the issue moot most of the time.

So unless Hernangomez agrees to sign for the minimum (which would be the literal definition of Jackson lowballing him, which you don't want) prior to July 8 2016 he can only sign for what the Knicks have left in *2015-16* cap space or exceptions.

They are over the cap and have none left as far as i know.

2016-17 business has not begun yet.

They do not get the new cap space until after it rises on July 8 (conclusion of the July moratorium) and/or they renounce the cap holds to players like Afflalo, which they also cannot do until July 8.

In other, shorter words, if Hernangomez wants and the Knicks want to pay him for the the rookie minimum, they can't until July 8.

And even if this all weren't the case, they hold his exclusive rights, training cap doesn't start until the fall and the Olympics is a legitimate event in the player's immediate future.

To assume that something is wrong because he hasn't signed yet is an overreaction and again, just unnecessary.

I may be wrong about that and don't profess to know every detail about everything NBA (no one on this board does.

Indeed, but it's pretty easy to get an answer to any questions like they ones you have answered.

and (2) I firmly believe not acquiring a 2nd round pick or jumping all over the better, more well-known UDFAs was indeed a mistake, esp. when you consider how out of hand some of these FA contracts could get. Look at the Noah to Washington rumor -- legit or BS, who knows, but what it does affirm is that FA could get well out of hand quickly. I think it would've been a good idea to try to mine some good cheap talent from this draft one way or another but hey, that's me.

The Noah-Washington rumor doesn't affirm jack. We know the cap was going up significantly and we had a pretty good the affect it'd have on the market. That rumor was a non-event.

But again, you're reacting to things you don't know, the literal, not pejorative definition of reacting out of ignorance. No one knows if the Knicks tried to sign some of the UDFA YOU personally, subjectively value. They may have jumped all over one of the players YOU personally, subjectively value and they might have said no.

And I don't know why the Knicks didn't pick in the second round. Maybe they tried and were rebuffed. Maybe they didn't try because they didn't like anyone that much.

But what I know is in 2 prior years, Jackson picked in the 2nd round 3 times, and last year acquired a pick in the 1st round.

Now you and I obviously disagree on the imperative of paying $2.5m+ (that can be used in others ways) for what's effectively a scratch-off lottery ticket as a matter of 15-man roster building, but the facts suggest the Knicks have been and were engaged in the draft process.

But it didn't go your way and you immediately turned to the Knicks had gotten "complacent" on Thursday night after acquiring Rose on Wednesday. Since the Knicks didn't do exactly what you didn't want them to do, you accused them of dereliction of duty, of sleeping on the job.

And then you immediately turn around and get offended that people here weren't speaking to you nicely enough.

I don't get it...

Good, then don't get it. Do you think I care? I wasn't even speaking to you. Lol

So I'm speaking to you, the function of this board. Whether you care or not is entirely beside the point. But this is the now the second time you've been factually corrected. One would hope you would care about now having accurate info and not making rash assumptions out of ignorance.

That you decided to defiantly express that you don't care is all too typical of what message boards are all about.

"Beliefs good.

"Facts bad.

"I was wrong. I don't care."