crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.

you would have to completely ignore his ws48 to buy into this idea. I have a hard time with that and I think the market will as well.

I think the 3-year $60M is too high.

I would roughly think 2-year $36M ($18M per) or 3-year $48M ($16M per) might work and yes I understand that contract #s are moving higher.

I think Rondo comes with enough ?s (age, injury, attitude) that Knicks (if smart) can get him on a solid deal (maybe better than what I've indicated above).

maybe, maybe not. Its a sellers market. Everyone has cash and it only takes one team. Also the $18mm is what I am putting out there as well. He made $13mm two years ago so that is the # I am working off. Last year's deal was a one-off. So I am talking the same #s you guys are. You give him the normal NBA raises and $18, $20, $22 (ish) = $60mm.

Really hard to envision a better deal on the FA market than what Rondo can bring.

Hey... I would love to sign him cheap, but you have to be realistic. This is a jacked market with waaaay more spenders than FAs.

If the message is "we want you but only for cheap" than forget it. But if the message is "we will pay you the next 3 years like a star because we think you can take Melo/KP/Lopez to the next level" than I think he's Knick and yes.. I would make that deal.

My simply plan is load us up as much as possible for a 3 year run. Be in the playoffs every year. Then after 3 years you have Melo/Lopez/Rondo expiring setting us up for an epic FA crop to build next to KP. That's my thought.

Or we could max out Crabbe and hope he's the next Allan Houston with his 10ppg and sweet stroke

If it's a sellers market than we should avoid. IN a market cap system the name of the game is buying value. It's not an over-simplification to say the name of the game is to get better talent for essentially the same money. FA's by definition (almost -- some exception) you pay market price. I.e., not a value. Real value is in drafting (where rookies are capped) or landing a mega star (e.g., Lebron, KD etc are worth more than you're allowed to pay them). We shouldn't chase a player simply because he may make us better. We need to consider the fuller picture, opportunity cost etc. (e.g., we have REAL needs at SG -- modest upgrade is insufficient)

If you're right about FAs being a sellers market maybe we should consider other markets, where it will be buyer's market. For example, Boston has too many picks where the players slotted will be largely redundant with what they already have. They need to sell those, just like a grocer needs to sell his produce before it starts getting rotten. Other teams may be in similar situations. Minnesota for example has Rubio and Lavine on the books and they're slotted in a position which might land a top pg or sg (and might be looking to get rid of some guys).

we need to do it all... however I see the value in giving Rondo big money for 3 years. This would NOT impact me buying picks. Actually the opposite. I want to build up the roster as much as possible. The IDEAL situation is to have team that's been in the playoffs for 3 years, is viewed as a stable franchise and has a young superstar in KP and a roster of young up and coming guys on rookie deals when Melo/Lopez/Rondo expire. That's my end vision with this signing.

how about his ws48? I did not see you address that. You may not be an advanced stat guy but hornacek def is one.

What's your assessment? How do Rondo's stats play into his ws48?

you are asking what stats are causing a bad ws48?

his ws48 has been below average for 4 straight years. You want to pay him max because he just passes the eye test?

Well, for one thing, he's only been below average for three years and those years were - injury, Dallas under a coach he didn't get along with, and Sacramento for a terrible team. The fourth year back he was above average and in the all-star game.

I think his win shares are low because his free throw percentage and free throw rate is low. Win Shares weigh free throw attempts very heavily, Rondo shoots a bad percentage, but he also rarely gets to the line. To me, that makes his free throw shooting not that big a deal. He shot .45% from 2 and .36% from 3, that's pretty decent. His TS% gets thrown by the low number of free throw attempts. Watching him play, I'd argue that he doesn't get fouled a lot because he's not doing the Harden thing of trying to draw contact, but rather he's snaking around defenders and making layups or passing to teammates for wide open shots.

He had the Kings playing at the fastest pace in the league too, something that JH has said he wants.

With Rondo it's about fit, to me. I think he fits well next to Melo and KP and even Rolo, because of potential for Rondo to set them up for open jumpers in the pick and pop and get them easy buckets in their spots. You've said you don't think WS% can be influenced by team fit - but Dragic looks like an all-star if you look at his Phoenix years under Hornacek and a below average player if you look at his Heat years. Did he just become a vastly different player?

Melo's best seasons have come with elite PGs - Billups and Kidd - who knew how to get him the ball in his spots. I think signing Rondo to a contract the same length of Melo and Rolo's deals makes a ton of sense.

so you would be paying and banking that you got celtic rondo? maybe he does not draw fouls because he does not want to shoot ft's?

He had a TS of 50 this year, that is pretty awful.

how good was his defense this past season?

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.

you would have to completely ignore his ws48 to buy into this idea. I have a hard time with that and I think the market will as well.

I think the 3-year $60M is too high.

I would roughly think 2-year $36M ($18M per) or 3-year $48M ($16M per) might work and yes I understand that contract #s are moving higher.

I think Rondo comes with enough ?s (age, injury, attitude) that Knicks (if smart) can get him on a solid deal (maybe better than what I've indicated above).

maybe, maybe not. Its a sellers market. Everyone has cash and it only takes one team. Also the $18mm is what I am putting out there as well. He made $13mm two years ago so that is the # I am working off. Last year's deal was a one-off. So I am talking the same #s you guys are. You give him the normal NBA raises and $18, $20, $22 (ish) = $60mm.

Really hard to envision a better deal on the FA market than what Rondo can bring.

Hey... I would love to sign him cheap, but you have to be realistic. This is a jacked market with waaaay more spenders than FAs.

If the message is "we want you but only for cheap" than forget it. But if the message is "we will pay you the next 3 years like a star because we think you can take Melo/KP/Lopez to the next level" than I think he's Knick and yes.. I would make that deal.

My simply plan is load us up as much as possible for a 3 year run. Be in the playoffs every year. Then after 3 years you have Melo/Lopez/Rondo expiring setting us up for an epic FA crop to build next to KP. That's my thought.

Or we could max out Crabbe and hope he's the next Allan Houston with his 10ppg and sweet stroke

If it's a sellers market than we should avoid. IN a market cap system the name of the game is buying value. It's not an over-simplification to say the name of the game is to get better talent for essentially the same money. FA's by definition (almost -- some exception) you pay market price. I.e., not a value. Real value is in drafting (where rookies are capped) or landing a mega star (e.g., Lebron, KD etc are worth more than you're allowed to pay them). We shouldn't chase a player simply because he may make us better. We need to consider the fuller picture, opportunity cost etc. (e.g., we have REAL needs at SG -- modest upgrade is insufficient)

If you're right about FAs being a sellers market maybe we should consider other markets, where it will be buyer's market. For example, Boston has too many picks where the players slotted will be largely redundant with what they already have. They need to sell those, just like a grocer needs to sell his produce before it starts getting rotten. Other teams may be in similar situations. Minnesota for example has Rubio and Lavine on the books and they're slotted in a position which might land a top pg or sg (and might be looking to get rid of some guys).

we need to do it all... however I see the value in giving Rondo big money for 3 years. This would NOT impact me buying picks. Actually the opposite. I want to build up the roster as much as possible. The IDEAL situation is to have team that's been in the playoffs for 3 years, is viewed as a stable franchise and has a young superstar in KP and a roster of young up and coming guys on rookie deals when Melo/Lopez/Rondo expire. That's my end vision with this signing.

how about his ws48? I did not see you address that. You may not be an advanced stat guy but hornacek def is one.

What's your assessment? How do Rondo's stats play into his ws48?

you are asking what stats are causing a bad ws48?

his ws48 has been below average for 4 straight years. You want to pay him max because he just passes the eye test?

Well, for one thing, he's only been below average for three years and those years were - injury, Dallas under a coach he didn't get along with, and Sacramento for a terrible team. The fourth year back he was above average and in the all-star game.

I think his win shares are low because his free throw percentage and free throw rate is low. Win Shares weigh free throw attempts very heavily, Rondo shoots a bad percentage, but he also rarely gets to the line. To me, that makes his free throw shooting not that big a deal. He shot .45% from 2 and .36% from 3, that's pretty decent. His TS% gets thrown by the low number of free throw attempts. Watching him play, I'd argue that he doesn't get fouled a lot because he's not doing the Harden thing of trying to draw contact, but rather he's snaking around defenders and making layups or passing to teammates for wide open shots.

He had the Kings playing at the fastest pace in the league too, something that JH has said he wants.

With Rondo it's about fit, to me. I think he fits well next to Melo and KP and even Rolo, because of potential for Rondo to set them up for open jumpers in the pick and pop and get them easy buckets in their spots. You've said you don't think WS% can be influenced by team fit - but Dragic looks like an all-star if you look at his Phoenix years under Hornacek and a below average player if you look at his Heat years. Did he just become a vastly different player?

Melo's best seasons have come with elite PGs - Billups and Kidd - who knew how to get him the ball in his spots. I think signing Rondo to a contract the same length of Melo and Rolo's deals makes a ton of sense.

so you would be paying and banking that you got celtic rondo? maybe he does not draw fouls because he does not want to shoot ft's?

He had a TS of 50 this year, that is pretty awful.

how good was his defense this past season?

Defense is a team statistic - there's no good defensive stat for an individual player. I believe there is a pretty good reason DeMarcus Cousins has never won more than 29 games before this season though. Cousin is a terrible defender.

Rondo is a solid to very good defender. He made all NBA 1st team defense twice and 2nd team twice. It really depends on the team scheme, but I think playing with KP and Rolo would help him more than playing with Cousins.

Are you suggesting you think he would not be a substantial upgrade from Calderon? I would love to see a stat that proved that!

nyknickzingis wrote:We need to get someone who can be trusted to space the floor. Rondo can speed up the offense and he is a heck of a competitor, but I don't know if he fits in the Triangle or what Hornachek wants to do.

I think Mike Conley is a much better player at this pint in their careers. I'm weary of offering either a huge sum of money, but of the two, I think Conley is a player is rather see pair up with Melo and KP.

I'd take either player to be honest. Rondo doesn't have to be perfect in order to help this team tremendously. I suspect he'd be able to hit just enough 3's to make things work.

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:We need to get someone who can be trusted to space the floor. Rondo can speed up the offense and he is a heck of a competitor, but I don't know if he fits in the Triangle or what Hornachek wants to do.

I think Mike Conley is a much better player at this pint in their careers. I'm weary of offering either a huge sum of money, but of the two, I think Conley is a player is rather see pair up with Melo and KP.

Conley is a little younger and a better fit but can the Knicks get him from Memphis? He'd have to be thinking the Knicks have a better future with the players he'd be joining in NY versus the older guys in Memphis. Not to mention being in the East where he'd have a better shot to get to the Finals.

I'd take either player to be honest. Rondo doesn't have to be perfect in order to help this team tremendously. I suspect he'd be able to hit just enough 3's to make things work.

Either player would be acceptable. Conley is the obvious first choice to me. Younger, better shooter, better defender. Conley has always flown under the radar, and will always do so in Memphis. He is a great PG, but will never make an all-star game in the west, or be a household name. If he wants bigger recognition, he should come to the east. He will have a chance to make an all-star team, and that matters to guys even if they don't admit it. It's just common sense. NY would be a good place for him. Either player in fact.

Conley is my dream player. I just don't think he's leaving Memphis. If he came here, I would jump up and down with joy.

I just think Rondo is more realistic.

I'm assuming the Knicks will reach out to his agent and know his intentions well before July 1... we shall see...

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:We need to get someone who can be trusted to space the floor. Rondo can speed up the offense and he is a heck of a competitor, but I don't know if he fits in the Triangle or what Hornachek wants to do.

I think Mike Conley is a much better player at this pint in their careers. I'm weary of offering either a huge sum of money, but of the two, I think Conley is a player is rather see pair up with Melo and KP.

Conley is a little younger and a better fit but can the Knicks get him from Memphis? He'd have to be thinking the Knicks have a better future with the players he'd be joining in NY versus the older guys in Memphis. Not to mention being in the East where he'd have a better shot to get to the Finals.

I'd take either player to be honest. Rondo doesn't have to be perfect in order to help this team tremendously. I suspect he'd be able to hit just enough 3's to make things work.

Either player would be acceptable. Conley is the obvious first choice to me. Younger, better shooter, better defender. Conley has always flown under the radar, and will always do so in Memphis. He is a great PG, but will never make an all-star game in the west, or be a household name. If he wants bigger recognition, he should come to the east. He will have a chance to make an all-star team, and that matters to guys even if they don't admit it. It's just common sense. NY would be a good place for him. Either player in fact.

Conley is my dream player. I just don't think he's leaving Memphis. If he came here, I would jump up and down with joy.

I just think Rondo is more realistic.

I'm assuming the Knicks will reach out to his agent and know his intentions well before July 1... we shall see...

Yeah i see it the same way. Either player would be good. If we sign Rondo, we may have a better opportunity to add a starting caliber SG. Adding Conley, we would have to get really resourceful at the SG position i think.

Knixkik wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:We need to get someone who can be trusted to space the floor. Rondo can speed up the offense and he is a heck of a competitor, but I don't know if he fits in the Triangle or what Hornachek wants to do.

I think Mike Conley is a much better player at this pint in their careers. I'm weary of offering either a huge sum of money, but of the two, I think Conley is a player is rather see pair up with Melo and KP.

Conley is a little younger and a better fit but can the Knicks get him from Memphis? He'd have to be thinking the Knicks have a better future with the players he'd be joining in NY versus the older guys in Memphis. Not to mention being in the East where he'd have a better shot to get to the Finals.

I'd take either player to be honest. Rondo doesn't have to be perfect in order to help this team tremendously. I suspect he'd be able to hit just enough 3's to make things work.

Either player would be acceptable. Conley is the obvious first choice to me. Younger, better shooter, better defender. Conley has always flown under the radar, and will always do so in Memphis. He is a great PG, but will never make an all-star game in the west, or be a household name. If he wants bigger recognition, he should come to the east. He will have a chance to make an all-star team, and that matters to guys even if they don't admit it. It's just common sense. NY would be a good place for him. Either player in fact.

Conley is my dream player. I just don't think he's leaving Memphis. If he came here, I would jump up and down with joy.

I just think Rondo is more realistic.

I'm assuming the Knicks will reach out to his agent and know his intentions well before July 1... we shall see...

Yeah i see it the same way. Either player would be good. If we sign Rondo, we may have a better opportunity to add a starting caliber SG. Adding Conley, we would have to get really resourceful at the SG position i think.

The two guys we are sold on building around are KP and Melo. The way I see the Knicks going in free agency - get talent regardless of position who compliment KP and Melo. Around KP and Melo you have room for 1 big, 1 wing and at least 1 ball handling guard.

If we restrict ourselves to positional needs based on last years team, then we really need to go all out at point guard. However I sense that is the narrow minded way to look at it. We should look to upgrade any and every position around KP and Melo we can. If that means signing someone like Al Horford, to replace Lopez, so be it. If it means signing Batum, and moving Melo more to 4 and KP to 5, so be it. I definitely think we will make a run at Conley, but I see us having interest in the best talent available regardless of position, and assuming the salary demands are within what we think is worth the investment, we will go for it.

I was a fan of RoLo, but with Hornachek coming in, getting quicker and more athletic as well as being able to spread the floor is critical. I'm not sure the Lopez/KP/Melo front court can compete with the best teams in the league. I think we're far better served having a Horford type of big man with KP and Melo than RoLo. Al can hit the jumper from outside the paint give us more speed and spacing which is a big part of getting better on offense for this team.