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Offer the Celtics a 2019 #1 restricted to 5 for pick 16 if vlanetine is on the board
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BRIGGS
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6/3/2016  2:41 AM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:Briggs,
I think that Valentine goes late lottery
and I agree with you that he'd be a good get.....
I'm just not sure that he's worth what you're proposing.
The 2017 draft is loaded....maybe one of the best in years.
I'd hold my cards.

My hope was he dropped in workouts which are taylor made for better athletes. Yep maybe that price is high although I dont see us at pick #6 next year and it will be difficult to get a better player than Denzel in almost any draft imho. I think hes going to be a good player. This will be a strange draft--I guess we have to work out everyone--be prepared and see who falls.

RIP Crushalot😞
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BRIGGS
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6/3/2016  1:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/3/2016  2:05 PM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:Briggs,
I think that Valentine goes late lottery
and I agree with you that he'd be a good get.....
I'm just not sure that he's worth what you're proposing.
The 2017 draft is loaded....maybe one of the best in years.
I'd hold my cards.

Hey Knicks--whats your take on Bryn Forbes? Fans dont really know who he is but hes really the 1-2 best shooter in the draft. Hes got decent size--hes 6-3 and I think hes a better ballhandler with more athleticism than some might think he has. He gets off the ground on his J and hes got the same form as Steph Curry. Hes got a floater game--why cant he be a 2nd team shooter off the bench and develop as a PG? I know we took trice last year who has more pure PG skill but this guy is an unusually fantastic shooter. Thats what I like out of rd #2. Someone with a skill thats really really good. Hes excellent at creating his own space and has a quick release. Bryn Forbes has what we want out of Langston Galloway. Hes a knock down shooter

RIP Crushalot😞
KncksbigKATS
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6/3/2016  9:08 PM
Briggs,
Admittedly, I don't know much about Bryn Forbes.
And, he's not even mentioned in the first two rounds in
mock drafts that I follow. However, in researching him a bit,
I am a fan of how he can create space and his own shots.
I can see the appeal; whether or not he's worth a gamble
in a second round purchase is debatable.
The NBA has changed dramatically over the last 5 years.
Potential playoff teams need players who can knock down threes
at a reliable rate. Great shooters are in demand nowadays.....
for that reason alone, he's worth a late second round gamble IMHO.
KBC
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." -Michael Jordan
EwingsGlass
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6/4/2016  12:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/4/2016  12:59 AM
Last year, PJax mentioned that he thought Free Agency should come before the draft so teams could better identify needs to fill through the draft. Clearly a window into mindset as he sees FA as the way to fill the starting lineup rather than drafting.

I mention the above because of the timing aspect. By trading a future pick for a SG before FA, you really don't know what kind of team you will be left with. Every year you identify undervalued players. That said, any additional picks we acquire will absorb valuable cap space as this team tries to complete its starting lineup (let alone fill out the bench). Thing is, second round picks don't really use up cap space as they are the same value as cap holds.

Two things result from this: 1) Unless we knew this player Valentine was the player that puts us over the top, you really can't make this trade before free agency. If I knew I was signing KD, I might make that trade all day. 2) The talent identified needs to be draft able between 31 and 60 to be cost neutral before free agency.

A third, less important point, is that 2017 draft picks are economically more valuable than 2016 based on the rising salary cap. Rookie scale contracts are fixed price by the CBA. It just means that the percentage of total salary that a rookie scale contract takes up in 2017 will be less than in 2016.

There are good counterpoints to these statements. For example, picks 31 through 60 are not fixed price for 5 years... So they cost more in the long run if you have a good pick. I don't think you use this logic though. It's like a winning lotto ticket. If you have a winning lotto ticket, do you complain about the taxes?


Long story short, you should not trade the 2017 pick for 2016 because of the timing of free agency. Valentine would have to be a 90% or higher odds to be above average this first year to make me change my mind. I don't think the odds are that high. Anything less, I'd rather let you pick next year's Valentine next year.

You know I gonna spin wit it
BRIGGS
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6/5/2016  9:19 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:Last year, PJax mentioned that he thought Free Agency should come before the draft so teams could better identify needs to fill through the draft. Clearly a window into mindset as he sees FA as the way to fill the starting lineup rather than drafting.

I mention the above because of the timing aspect. By trading a future pick for a SG before FA, you really don't know what kind of team you will be left with. Every year you identify undervalued players. That said, any additional picks we acquire will absorb valuable cap space as this team tries to complete its starting lineup (let alone fill out the bench). Thing is, second round picks don't really use up cap space as they are the same value as cap holds.

Two things result from this: 1) Unless we knew this player Valentine was the player that puts us over the top, you really can't make this trade before free agency. If I knew I was signing KD, I might make that trade all day. 2) The talent identified needs to be draft able between 31 and 60 to be cost neutral before free agency.

A third, less important point, is that 2017 draft picks are economically more valuable than 2016 based on the rising salary cap. Rookie scale contracts are fixed price by the CBA. It just means that the percentage of total salary that a rookie scale contract takes up in 2017 will be less than in 2016.

There are good counterpoints to these statements. For example, picks 31 through 60 are not fixed price for 5 years... So they cost more in the long run if you have a good pick. I don't think you use this logic though. It's like a winning lotto ticket. If you have a winning lotto ticket, do you complain about the taxes?


Long story short, you should not trade the 2017 pick for 2016 because of the timing of free agency. Valentine would have to be a 90% or higher odds to be above average this first year to make me change my mind. I don't think the odds are that high. Anything less, I'd rather let you pick next year's Valentine next year.

From watching these games I really don't see a more nba ready player who can make a positive impact than Valentine. Valentine is a version of dray green from the pg position

RIP Crushalot😞
EwingsGlass
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6/6/2016  7:28 AM
I hear you. That said, with near certainty you will be able to identify a player in next year's draft that has equal or better potential to Valentine in the same Late first round draft position. To give up a future pick for this one, I would need something better. Those picks will be the things that put us over the top when we really have a core. I'd trade most players for a pick that you are so high on, but trading future picks feels like a losing proposition.
You know I gonna spin wit it
Jmpasq
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6/6/2016  8:37 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Best move we can make. Thats the type of player we need. Leader passer rebounder ballhandler 3 point marksman can play PG at 6-5 220.

That was my thought process 5 months ago and still today best move we can make.


Valentine Barber Forbes

Ill even do this

2017 pick restricted to 5 + 3mm for picks 16 and 31.

I would do it but do you think the Celtics would take the restricted pick

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Jmpasq
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6/6/2016  8:40 AM
callmened wrote:OMG no more trading draft picks!!! haven't we learned our lesson!! lol

We are trading a pick for a pick in this scenario. I really believe Valentine can be a great player thats the only reason why I would entertain it

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Jmpasq
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6/6/2016  8:43 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
callmened wrote:forget college stats...they don't translate on the next level. its all about context. valentine did EVERYTHING for mich st last season

he has a versatile skill set...just nothing JUMPS out athletically. I DONT understand this love affair with valentine (pun intended)

Wow I guess you dont like Stephen Curry. Steph Curry--too small to slow cant defend boy was that wrong. Valentine is just a player who gets it and knows how to play WAY above his peers.

His court vision is tremendous and he can drill the 3, Im with you on this one Briggs I think a lot of teams will be kicking themselves for passing on him

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
EwingsGlass
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6/6/2016  8:51 AM
I just have a higher discount factor on guys like this because he is a fourth year. Same reason I wasn't so high on Frank Whereishe Kaminshky. You take a 4 year player who take this many years to get comfortable and is literally a man playing among boys and you really have statistical discounts that are necessary. If it took them this long to adjust to the NCAA, how long will it take to adjust to NBA? Or are they really more NBA ready? Late first round, I'm willing to trade upside for NBA ready. That said, I'm not gonna act like this guy is God's gift to basketball when it took so long to get here.

Rather than criticize you though, let me ask this Briggsy, how to you evaluate 4 year players and red shirt + 4 players? You think they are undervalued? I think their stats are puffed.

You know I gonna spin wit it
BRIGGS
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6/6/2016  8:54 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/6/2016  8:58 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:I hear you. That said, with near certainty you will be able to identify a player in next year's draft that has equal or better potential to Valentine in the same Late first round draft position. To give up a future pick for this one, I would need something better. Those picks will be the things that put us over the top when we really have a core. I'd trade most players for a pick that you are so high on, but trading future picks feels like a losing proposition.

I think it will be hard to find a better player.

I'm on
Late 1 valentine. Early 2 barber late 2 Derrick jones Undrafted forbes. 4 guards

RIP Crushalot😞
NumberTwoPencil
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6/6/2016  4:26 PM
I'm totally sold on Valentine. Maybe not a franchise guy but a solid player, worth pursuing, worth giving up significant assets for . . . worth a chance, even if he's going to need a year or two to grow.
Nalod
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6/6/2016  4:32 PM

Need a good bullshyt detector also.

BRIGGS
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6/6/2016  5:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/6/2016  5:33 PM
NumberTwoPencil wrote:I'm totally sold on Valentine. Maybe not a franchise guy but a solid player, worth pursuing, worth giving up significant assets for . . . worth a chance, even if he's going to need a year or two to grow.

This is an unusual draft because there are going to be some players fall that will give SOME teams extreme value propositions.

That being said Im sticking to my guns on what the Knicks need--what I think is possible and if its not there--then we move on. Obviously this will be a draft and free agency with 5-6 scenarios or MORE. IF things stay somewhat to form --and lets say that a BIG if this year IF I THINK Denzel Valentine will be available from 16-22. There are 4 possibilities there--16 19 23 and 24--obviously the compensation at 16 is much different than at 24 but 16 buys you the immediate leverage.

My guys are like this

16-22 Denzel Valentine--he would immediately be brought into the fold--I think hes more advanced than Jerian Grant and can play WITH Jerian as well

31-39--Anthony Barber--this guy is Tony Parker with more range. Close to a 90% volume FT shooter he gives us what we absolutely do not have a guy with speed who can use the dribble to make plays AND shoot it. Hes very talented on offense and should be a weapon coming off the bench. hes the fastest guy with the ball(he and Kay Felder) but hes 6-3 and I really like his J. He needs to work on a little better ball movement and defense but I think all the tools are there to be one heckuva platyer


45 to undrafted Bryn Forbes and Derrick Jones--simply these are my picks for next year draft. Bryn Forbes is what we wish we had with Langston Galloway and hes got much more talent than Travis Trice. I would let him start the year at Westchester developing his PG skills at 6-3 and as that develops --hope to have him on the main team by mid season. Derrick Jones is a guy who will fill the arena in Westchester and needs a year to develop his ballhandling and shot as he is easily the best athlete in this year draft at 6-7. This is your upside pick(if not drafted) that can be developed the way the Knicks want him to be developed at 19 years old.

So 2 Gs to the main team 2 Gs to westchester and we wont need a pick next year.

Then Im all in on Allan Crabbe in free agency.

That would be 6-6 6-5 6-3 and to Westchester 6-7 6-3 with a combination of skills.

RIP Crushalot😞
Offer the Celtics a 2019 #1 restricted to 5 for pick 16 if vlanetine is on the board

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