nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

in a few years with some zen praying, perhpaps we can clone those players who did not need PnR. Now we are stuck with regular players who do.

Yeah! Thank you! "Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't need the pick and roll" is not exactly an argument for why Jerian Grant and Kristaps Porzingis shouldn't do it ever.

Lakers ran 4/5 PnR so I don't see it as something new to the Triangle.

and? So they ran some pnr ... you keep missing the point.

did you see the stats posted this morning about the % of pnr the knicks run compared to the rest of the league?

The Knicks issue was exacerbated by Jose, AA and Gallo playing the bulk of the minutes and that impacted the amount of PnR as well as Give n Go, Dribble Handoffs and Screen actions. It's not that they never want to see any PnR or other 2 man actions.

I suspect the Knicks will never be the top PnR team in terms of frequency. I've gone over this before but there are others ways to play efficient ball. I've shown that Phil's teams were able to play at similar levels of efficiency to today's best teams despite not relying on PnR. You can choose to ignore this but it's true.

The Knicks biggest issues were due mostly to talent at guard. Improve the guards and you'll see a better team on both ends. You'll see more PnR, penetration and tempo.

Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

in a few years with some zen praying, perhpaps we can clone those players who did not need PnR. Now we are stuck with regular players who do.

Yeah! Thank you! "Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't need the pick and roll" is not exactly an argument for why Jerian Grant and Kristaps Porzingis shouldn't do it ever.

Lakers ran 4/5 PnR so I don't see it as something new to the Triangle.

and? So they ran some pnr ... you keep missing the point.

did you see the stats posted this morning about the % of pnr the knicks run compared to the rest of the league?

The Knicks issue was exacerbated by Jose, AA and Gallo playing the bulk of the minutes and that impacted the amount of PnR as well as Give n Go, Dribble Handoffs and Screen actions. It's not that they never want to see any PnR or other 2 man actions.

I suspect the Knicks will never be the top PnR team in terms of frequency. I've gone over this before but there are others ways to play efficient ball. I've shown that Phil's teams were able to play at similar levels of efficiency to today's best teams despite not relying on PnR. You can choose to ignore this but it's true.

The Knicks biggest issues were due mostly to talent at guard. Improve the guards and you'll see a better team on both ends. You'll see more PnR, penetration and tempo.

Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman

You realize how dumb this post is? Just cuz you had those players doesn't mean you automatically would play efficient offense. Also if the Triangle was as bad as you suggest how could any team be as efficient as they were? If the Triangle hurt the performance of the players you would think it would show somewhere.

Every great team is gonna have good to great players. That's interesting that you would acknowledge the talent on Phil's teams of the past but trash the Triangle with lesser players we have had. Is the problem the offense or some of the players we had this year, especially at guard?

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:People say they're tired of the Triangle. Well I'm tired of hearing about PnR! PnR is not an entire offense. The Knicks do use PnR among other things.

The Pick and Roll is the single most effective basketball play. Full stop.

The Knicks do not use it. Fisher was fired for using it.

This is an oversimplification of high order. Fish was not fired for using PnR!!! Phil has always had some PnR but didn't depend on it. Funny how Phil won all those Titles not depending on PnR.

in a few years with some zen praying, perhpaps we can clone those players who did not need PnR. Now we are stuck with regular players who do.

Yeah! Thank you! "Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant didn't need the pick and roll" is not exactly an argument for why Jerian Grant and Kristaps Porzingis shouldn't do it ever.

Lakers ran 4/5 PnR so I don't see it as something new to the Triangle.

and? So they ran some pnr ... you keep missing the point.

did you see the stats posted this morning about the % of pnr the knicks run compared to the rest of the league?

The Knicks issue was exacerbated by Jose, AA and Gallo playing the bulk of the minutes and that impacted the amount of PnR as well as Give n Go, Dribble Handoffs and Screen actions. It's not that they never want to see any PnR or other 2 man actions.

I suspect the Knicks will never be the top PnR team in terms of frequency. I've gone over this before but there are others ways to play efficient ball. I've shown that Phil's teams were able to play at similar levels of efficiency to today's best teams despite not relying on PnR. You can choose to ignore this but it's true.

The Knicks biggest issues were due mostly to talent at guard. Improve the guards and you'll see a better team on both ends. You'll see more PnR, penetration and tempo.

Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman
Jordan Kobe Shaq Gasol Pippen Rodman

You realize how dumb this post is? Just cuz you had those players doesn't mean you automatically would play efficient offense. Also if the Triangle was as bad as you suggest how could any team be as efficient as they were? If the Triangle hurt the performance of the players you would think it would show somewhere.

Every great team is gonna have good to great players. That's interesting that you would acknowledge the talent on Phil's teams of the past but trash the Triangle with lesser players we have had. Is the problem the offense or some of the players we had this year, especially at guard?

the triangle was fine for them and then. It may not be as good without those guys or as good with more advanced / modern offenses that are being run today.

You need to take the team you have and choose an offense that will maximize efficiency and production.

Riley did it many different ways. Has Phil? Has any Phily-babies?

I think you're being a bit disingenuous here since you would admit you don't like the current roster. No matter what offense we ran this roster would not be a contender. How about we let Phil continue to build up the talent on this team as well as continuing to teach the Triangle to them. This was literally the 1st season in this system for many of the players. However much of the Triangle Fish actually taught them. I want to see this team with better guard play. Then we can talk!

Malcolm wrote:Here's an example of a completely reasonable minimum expectation for Phil Jackson
to get done for next year. And it's a solid, 41 win, Triangle-savvy playoff team:

Starters:

Lopez
Anthony
Porzingis
Grant/Wroten
Kevin Martin

Bench:

P. Gasol
Williams
Thomas
Vujacic
Calderon

Get these guys . . . and run the Triangle.

I don't see Phil going for Kevin Martin. Gasol is possible given his ability and knowledge of the Triangle.

mreinman wrote:You need to take the team you have and choose an offense that will maximize efficiency and production.

That's exactly what the Triangle is designed for. It also is set up to maximize transition defense.

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:did you see the stats posted this morning about the % of pnr the knicks run compared to the rest of the league?

When did the % of pnr for an offense become a point that was even valid? Why is that relevant?

read the article and how it lays that out. It ties into efficiency and driving opps.

Knicks had the fewest driving attempts in the league, no?

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:You need to take the team you have and choose an offense that will maximize efficiency and production.

That's exactly what the Triangle is designed for. It also is set up to maximize transition defense.

we don't know what it was designed for because it was only used under special circumstances (best coach ever, players ever etc ...)

no other coach implemented it successfully and I would only utter disaster outcomes of phils baby coaches.

Look at the riley pupils. Look at the Pop pupils etc ...

No, YOU don't know what it was designed for because you haven't taken the time to read about it.

Also, you can play the chicken egg game all you want but I'm not buying it. If you think that the Triangle is only good with the best players, than throw out the system that Pops runs as a sustainable system cause it had Duncan and 3-4 other HOFs that you need to run it. Riley needed Magic, Kareem, Worthy; Wade, LeBron, Bosh; Wade, Shaq; so we gotta throw out him as a candidate too. Boston system of old was no good either cause it had 3 HOF and a budding all star in Rondo. The modern offense, as shiningly defined by the GSWs need of a generational shooter in Curry to win.

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:You need to take the team you have and choose an offense that will maximize efficiency and production.

That's exactly what the Triangle is designed for. It also is set up to maximize transition defense.

we don't know what it was designed for because it was only used under special circumstances (best coach ever, players ever etc ...)

no other coach implemented it successfully and I would only utter disaster outcomes of phils baby coaches.

Look at the riley pupils. Look at the Pop pupils etc ...

No, YOU don't know what it was designed for because you haven't taken the time to read about it.

Also, you can play the chicken egg game all you want but I'm not buying it. If you think that the Triangle is only good with the best players, than throw out the system that Pops runs as a sustainable system cause it had Duncan and 3-4 other HOFs that you need to run it. Riley needed Magic, Kareem, Worthy; Wade, LeBron, Bosh; Wade, Shaq; so we gotta throw out him as a candidate too. Boston system of old was no good either cause it had 3 HOF and a budding all star in Rondo. The modern offense, as shiningly defined by the GSWs need of a generational shooter in Curry to win.

how about what Riley did with the knicks? Diff squad diff system. In Miami, diff squad diff system.

how come there are no phil disciples but loads of riley disciples and a growing number of Pop disciples?

has the triangle ever been successful with a team that did not have a super star? Like with Budenholzer in Atlanta? Clifford in Charlotte? No ... so for now, the triangle has looked pretty sh1tty if not run by phil and not containing jordan/kobe/shaq.

Riley has proven that he can run and fly with showtime and get fukkin ugly and slow brawling with the knicks.

Pop won last season's Sloan award for the best in analytics. Don't you find that interesting? Do you think that phil really gives a sh1t about analytics? Do you think that he adjusts his players shots based on shot charts?

Do you even look at both sides of this?

I have to wonder how Phil ever got anything done without Analytics!!! You really have no idea how much Analytics factors into what the Knicks do. It's just not something we can know. The bulk of Phil's staff are believers in Analytics so I would guess that they're work is heavily influenced by it and they are the ones doing the heavy lifting in terms of scouting and putting together reports on NBA players and their own roster. Phil himself, doesn't have to be the one doing it.

To Stop Kobe or Shaq 80% of their opponent had to double team each, until the Hacka-Shaq
To Stop Kobe or Gasol 70% of their opponent had to double team each, or play coach Thibs Defense.

The Triangle-offense did not work for the Lakers BIG-4 http://Shaq Kobe Payton and Karl Malone because there were no chemistry in the rotation the Zen Master no longer had a long roster of chemistry veteran on the roster .. NO Ron Harper, Horace Grant, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher and 8 championship rings Horry on the Lakers roster .. That Lakers team got knocked out of the playoff in the 2nd round by Minny KG, Sprewell, and Sam Cassell

The above should prove Phil Jackson is a JOKER in NY .. We dont have one super-star player that our opponent will double team, nor do we show chemistry in any of our many lineups, we didnt show any type of player to player chemistry on the offensive side of the court nor the defensive side of the court throughout our 82 game season.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:
I have to wonder how Phil ever got anything done without Analytics!!!

no way to really know, I guess

I think you're only making my case! Pop got Duncan before Analytics was a thing in the NBA. People wanna use this Analytics thing against Phil when they can't really say if it's led to any championships. In truth what need do you have for Analytics when deciding to select Lebron or Durant in the draft? When it comes to the franchise players most of the time you pretty much know who they are.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:
I have to wonder how Phil ever got anything done without Analytics!!!

no way to really know, I guess

I think you're only making my case! Pop got Duncan before Analytics was a thing in the NBA. People wanna use this Analytics thing against Phil when they can't really say if it's led to any championships. In truth what need do you have for Analytics when deciding to select Lebron or Durant in the draft? When it comes to the franchise players most of the time you pretty much know who they are.

Tell that to the Blazers who took Greg Oden over Durant and Sam Bowie over Jordan.

I think the Bulls and Lakers front office deserve a fair amount of credit for building those dominant teams. Then hiring Phil after assembling the pieces. Pop is always quick to credit Buford.

I've just never seen a coach get as much credit as Phil
Jackson has for coaching two of the most dominant athletes in the history of sports.

Phil gets credit because of winning Titles with those players, which other coaches failed to do. It seems easy to keep egos in check long enough for the team to win multiple Titles back to back to back. It's not easy. He stuck with the Triangle because it was a way to get the stars to play team ball with the rest of the players! Guys like Kobe and Jordan were not easy to tame and get to trust their teammates.

I think Phil did a great job of coaching the Bulls when Jordan left that 1st year. It's true this is a different role for Phil as the actual architect of the team as opposed to coming into a ready made situation. Tho I believe Phil had input into the 2nd Bulls team with Rodman and the 2nd Lakers team with Pau.

In any event we'll get to see how Phil does with this situation in NY. He's just started and people have made up their minds before he even gets to finish building the team. I find that highly hypocritical for people to bash the guy before he's actually had the chance to finish building his team.