nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's best to end it if it wasn't working the way Phil wanted.

I'm not complaining that Jackson fired Fisher.

I'm complaining that he hired him in the first place so that he had to fire him later . . .

Phil wanted to mentor Fish cuz he saw leadership qualities in him. I can understand what he was thinking. Take the talented young man and give him experienced assistants. It's a perfectly logical approach. It didn't work but no GM/prez is perfect.

He wanted to mentor him but yet he didn't want to be around to Mentor him? He wanted to create space for Fisher to be his on man but yet was upset they didn't talk enough. I know you you lack experience but hey I'll pay you money like you're a top coach. Phil's logic sucks.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's best to end it if it wasn't working the way Phil wanted.

I'm not complaining that Jackson fired Fisher.

I'm complaining that he hired him in the first place so that he had to fire him later . . .

Phil wanted to mentor Fish cuz he saw leadership qualities in him. I can understand what he was thinking. Take the talented young man and give him experienced assistants. It's a perfectly logical approach. It didn't work but no GM/prez is perfect.

He wanted to mentor him but yet he didn't want to be around to Mentor him? He wanted to create space for Fisher to be his on man but yet was upset they didn't talk enough. I know you you lack experience but hey I'll pay you money like you're a top coach. Phil's logic sucks.

Nice and sarcastic take. If Phil failed in the execution with Fish it wasn't cuz he wasn't trying to make it work. It takes two to make things work.

I think the most important man is still here. Phil is the one that this team needs at the top making decisions and if he's teaching our players there's nothing bad about that. It's only good. Unless you think Phil can't teach our players what they need to know about winning.

This is how it starts tho. The fans and media with torches and pitchforks outside the Garden. Gotta hope Phil is strong enough to fight thru the BULLCRAP!

We could have more talent, execute it better also but I still believe the traditional triangle is s bit outdated. We are also too rigid with it because we are a very slow team and can't beat pressure off the ball or turn the corner on PNR.

Our down screens are set very sloppy. We never hit the back cutter on our corner screen and roll. So many failed options. I can go on and on. I'm honestly surprised we won as many games as we did.

I think the offense itself is fine but players today aren't used to playing that style and it's just a huge learning curve. Grant, Sasha, Thomas, KOQ, Lou, and KP are the only guys I saw grasp it. And half of them aren't talented enough to play. The rest did not get it and kinda stuck to their own game imo. It's a passing offense. You have to make reads and be able to make all the passes and it involves more cutting than dribbling. I just believe in today's game those players are harder to find.

You need a 5 who can score and pass, and Robin has showed a solid hook shot but he can't pass. KOQ can pass but can't score. Seraphin just looks to shoot every time he touches it.

You need effective PNR guards who can also play off the ball. It's hard enough to find penetrators for us but now we need to find guys who can do it all.

We fail to execute and then we go Iso anyway to Melo, AA, or Rolo. It's just all very frustrating...

newyorknewyork wrote:

tj23 wrote:All the triangle is is a system of different actions. Just because another team uses one or two of the same actions doesn't mean they are running the triangle. Most other teams primary option isn't dumping the ball to their Center who possesses zero passing skills.

We could have more talent, execute it better also but I still believe the traditional triangle is s bit outdated. We are also too rigid with it because we are a very slow team and can't beat pressure off the ball or turn the corner on PNR.

Our down screens are set very sloppy. We never hit the back cutter on our corner screen and roll. So many failed options. I can go on and on. I'm honestly surprised we won as many games as we did.

I think the offense itself is fine but players today aren't used to playing that style and it's just a huge learning curve. Grant, Sasha, Thomas, KOQ, Lou, and KP are the only guys I saw grasp it. And half of them aren't talented enough to play. The rest did not get it and kinda stuck to their own game imo. It's a passing offense. You have to make reads and be able to make all the passes and it involves more cutting than dribbling. I just believe in today's game those players are harder to find.

You need a 5 who can score and pass, and Robin has showed a solid hook shot but he can't pass. KOQ can pass but can't score. Seraphin just looks to shoot every time he touches it.

You need effective PNR guards who can also play off the ball. It's hard enough to find penetrators for us but now we need to find guys who can do it all.

We fail to execute and then we go Iso anyway to Melo, AA, or Rolo. It's just all very frustrating...

The upside of it working is tremendous and puts you in championship contention due to it not being guard able. And its what Phil Jackson specialty is in terms of what he is looking for in players as our president. So why wouldn't it be worth attempting to build it up over the yrs and see if we can hit on a style that has won 11 championships?

Because there is and will be too much roster turnover in the amount of time it'll take to get this offense working smoothly. 2 years in and there has been very minimal progress with it. Its nice in theory, but like i said earlier, you are talking about changing the way a lot of players have played their entire lives. The art of passing is dead.

Now players are accustomed to more quick screens and lots of spacing to drive and kick/PNR. If it was a far superior system and/or we had the talent in place I could see it being more feasible but there are other offenses that are equally as good that are much easier to pick up and don't require such unique players to this era. I don't believe its unguardable but it is a good offense.

Fact is, no offense is going to look good or work well if there aren't some better ball handlers and athletes added to this roster. You want to get to the rim to get high percentage shots and open up other options, no matter what offense you're running and most of our players fail to do that on any consistent basis. Good teams get a good mix of easy baskets and open jumpers, free points at the line. We don't do any of this because we are arguably the slowest team in the league and we rely on heavily contested jumpshots falling.

Martin trying valiantly to inject logic
mreinman in full Phil sucks mode
Guns blames Melo (and everyone who has ever liked him) while pining for Rubio/Shumpert
Eny is ready to hit someone
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks

Honestly if you look at the reporting and discussion its easy to see why so many people associated with the league simply want no part of coming here in any capacity. Boy its got to be really good to want to come here and deal with this type of work environment.

As for the topic in the title of the thread... Martin nailed it. My god.. imagine a gm/president with 11 rings taking a more hands on approach with younger players? Only in this city can this be spun into something terrible, but here we are.

Zero patience.

This was a big job, an it is most certainly a work in progress. I just hope he is here to see it through. I have no feeling on whether or not Phil ultimately succeeds here, but I do know it will take some time. Next up... the backcourt.

I see a president trying to put continuity into the organization, one that focuses on a system, structure, long term moves, all things that have
plagued the organization over the past 15 years. Phil is one of the greatest coaches out there and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a reasonable time period. He gave the 2013-14 team 3 months to show what they got, it stunk and he tore it down. When you do so, you gotta sacrifice another year or 2 or 3 before tangible results are manifested in the standings. We have 1 player from the 2013 team, to me that indicates a full tear down and rebuild; everyone has their own definition of rebuild but I feel this is one of them. The tear down was a success as it yielded franchise potential player - UNICORN PLAYER, potential league changing type player - and a PG. Of all the things that are most important in building up a team, it's finding that franchise potential player and then growing it. Growing the team and the player are manifested many different ways - win/loss, individual player development, team development.
Phil's first choice for coach was Kerr. He seemed to have a very good eye on that one, even in his narrow coaching pool. After that Fisher; Fish seemed to have some broad authority about what to do and tripped over his own follies and mismanagement of communication, coaching staff, personal failures, yo-yo'ing of players, etc. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how Phil makes comments about availing himself to the coaching staff and Fish and then Fish not taking advantage of that.
So, do you hire a new coach and staff and need to turn the roster over again to find the players that are more fitting to new coach and system? Re-start the coaching staff in the D-League? The scouting staff? Summer League plans?
The Knicks are not winning next year. Player development and continuity is of utmost importance. If keeping Rambis means that Phil will hold secret mini camps and be actively involved with Summer League and Training camp and beyond, why the **** not? I would say that Phil and probably Pop (and Riley) are the foremost of player, system, culture development? Why would I want to have Thibs who immediately would turn things over again and probably create a barrier between coaching staff and management? There is a possibility that they would work together, but why wouldn't Phil hone in on exactly who and what he wants to work with?

Nalod wrote:The way I read it was Kerr asked Phil if he was cool changing his mind. The ZenMaster gave his blessing.
We don't know how many hours a day Phil puts in the job, where he is when the media does not report. He can watch game film anywhere, reckon he has a portable computer and a cell phone.
He is criticized for both spending time with the players, or not. Traveling with the team, or not. Does he really need to even watch the games live?

even the great GM's/Presidents make mistakes. We look at the body of work in hindsight. Riles drafted Beasly. Riles before Shaq could not get past knicks in playoffs and made plenty of mistakes with his team. He got lucky when the league got him for circumventing the cap when we signed Juwan Howard to a $100 million dollar contract. When we look back Riles did good but he was not perfect.

There is no guarantee phil will see this thing thru but the amount of negative sentiment toward him is a bit weird.

The problem for Jackson has been that the talent had in the past is not even close to the talent he has now. When his Laker team were re-building after Shaq, I think they had Kobe playing on the level you see Curry right now. They had a player to carry the team to the playoffs. That was Kobe. In Chicago, he had Pippen, when Jordan left. Pippen had a few years where he was close to the top player in the league. In New York, Phil has Melo. Melo past his prime, in decline. Melo is still an all-star, but forget about being on the level where Kobe was in the Laker re-build or the level Pippen was in the Chicago time of starting over without Jordan (until MJ came back and they wound up having Pippen, MJ and 10 new players make 3 more championship runs).

It's really the talent. When I look at basketball reference on Phil's most recent championship teams, Robin Lopez is not nearly as good Pau Gasol. Kristaps Porzingis is as good as Lamar Odom, could be better even. We don't have a big guy like Bynum, either. That Kobe is much better than current Melo. They even had a great defender in Ron Artest, we don't have that sort of defensive wing. The only position we're the same boat is PG.

For me it's about talent. Phil needs a better Center, he needs a better defensive wing, and possibly he needs a better franchise player to get this done. Will it happen? Unlikely. But he's positioning New York to have the opportunity to go out and get these players through free agency. He's keeping draft picks or picking up guys in the draft who could become those sort of players.

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't believe Phil is obsessed with the Triangle, what he's obsessed with is seeing a team play together as one unit within a system. He wants to see a system run that makes all players play within 1 mindset. The Triangle is one of these offenses. They are more. The Triangle happens to be the one Phil won 11 rings with as a coach, running that system, so obviously he would try and focus on running that within an organization he was a part of.

The problem for Jackson has been that the talent had in the past is not even close to the talent he has now. When his Laker team were re-building after Shaq, I think they had Kobe playing on the level you see Curry right now. They had a player to carry the team to the playoffs. That was Kobe. In Chicago, he had Pippen, when Jordan left. Pippen had a few years where he was close to the top player in the league. In New York, Phil has Melo. Melo past his prime, in decline. Melo is still an all-star, but forget about being on the level where Kobe was in the Laker re-build or the level Pippen was in the Chicago time of starting over without Jordan (until MJ came back and they wound up having Pippen, MJ and 10 new players make 3 more championship runs).

It's really the talent. When I look at basketball reference on Phil's most recent championship teams, Robin Lopez is not nearly as good Pau Gasol. Kristaps Porzingis is as good as Lamar Odom, could be better even. We don't have a big guy like Bynum, either. That Kobe is much better than current Melo. They even had a great defender in Ron Artest, we don't have that sort of defensive wing. The only position we're the same boat is PG.

For me it's about talent. Phil needs a better Center, he needs a better defensive wing, and possibly he needs a better franchise player to get this done. Will it happen? Unlikely. But he's positioning New York to have the opportunity to go out and get these players through free agency. He's keeping draft picks or picking up guys in the draft who could become those sort of players.

tj23 wrote:All the triangle is is a system of different actions. Just because another team uses one or two of the same actions doesn't mean they are running the triangle. Most other teams primary option isn't dumping the ball to their Center who possesses zero passing skills.

We could have more talent, execute it better also but I still believe the traditional triangle is s bit outdated. We are also too rigid with it because we are a very slow team and can't beat pressure off the ball or turn the corner on PNR.

Our down screens are set very sloppy. We never hit the back cutter on our corner screen and roll. So many failed options. I can go on and on. I'm honestly surprised we won as many games as we did.

I think the offense itself is fine but players today aren't used to playing that style and it's just a huge learning curve. Grant, Sasha, Thomas, KOQ, Lou, and KP are the only guys I saw grasp it. And half of them aren't talented enough to play. The rest did not get it and kinda stuck to their own game imo. It's a passing offense. You have to make reads and be able to make all the passes and it involves more cutting than dribbling. I just believe in today's game those players are harder to find.

You need a 5 who can score and pass, and Robin has showed a solid hook shot but he can't pass. KOQ can pass but can't score. Seraphin just looks to shoot every time he touches it.

You need effective PNR guards who can also play off the ball. It's hard enough to find penetrators for us but now we need to find guys who can do it all.

We fail to execute and then we go Iso anyway to Melo, AA, or Rolo. It's just all very frustrating...

This is a great post and a good read of the team. Totally agree.

crzymdups wrote:

tj23 wrote:All the triangle is is a system of different actions. Just because another team uses one or two of the same actions doesn't mean they are running the triangle. Most other teams primary option isn't dumping the ball to their Center who possesses zero passing skills.

We could have more talent, execute it better also but I still believe the traditional triangle is s bit outdated. We are also too rigid with it because we are a very slow team and can't beat pressure off the ball or turn the corner on PNR.

Our down screens are set very sloppy. We never hit the back cutter on our corner screen and roll. So many failed options. I can go on and on. I'm honestly surprised we won as many games as we did.

I think the offense itself is fine but players today aren't used to playing that style and it's just a huge learning curve. Grant, Sasha, Thomas, KOQ, Lou, and KP are the only guys I saw grasp it. And half of them aren't talented enough to play. The rest did not get it and kinda stuck to their own game imo. It's a passing offense. You have to make reads and be able to make all the passes and it involves more cutting than dribbling. I just believe in today's game those players are harder to find.

You need a 5 who can score and pass, and Robin has showed a solid hook shot but he can't pass. KOQ can pass but can't score. Seraphin just looks to shoot every time he touches it.

You need effective PNR guards who can also play off the ball. It's hard enough to find penetrators for us but now we need to find guys who can do it all.

We fail to execute and then we go Iso anyway to Melo, AA, or Rolo. It's just all very frustrating...

This is a great post and a good read of the team. Totally agree.

It's definitely a good post because it paints the picture and leads a conversation into the future. We're not bringing back the exact same team next year. We will pick up a few different players. The window to success is more clear. Phil has his work cut out for him but he's been very say and smart so far. Not everything has been golden but there is gold none the less. As fans we should hope he can bring some more gold for the collection this summer and make that push to the playoffs