ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Anthony stated that he wanted to come to the Knicks...he had complete control over where he was going to play the next season.

I could be wrong...but wasn't the advantage of a sign and trade so Anthony could get an extra year on his contract...and didn't he end up opting out of that extra year to sign the contract he negotiated with Phil? Anthony would have had the same ability to sign a few contract when he did if he signed with us as a FA...No?

Even if you didn't care for the players we gave up in the trade- you could have used them as trade assets at a later point. We all know that the Cavs were willing to fork over picks for Mosgov, and Gallo could have gotten you something as well.

By the way...no guarantee that Gallo or Chandler would have gotten hurt they way they did in Denver if they had stayed with us.

Gave up our 2014 #1, which I don't think was as good of a pick as Denver hoped it would be, but it might have gotten us a decent player, or it could have been used in conjunction with a player to help the team improve.

Not sure how Denver used the 2nd Rnd picks we gave them.

Would have saved our Amnesty option- not even a need to decide on whether Billups should be amnestied because he would never have been on the team.

If I'm wrong on any of this, especially the part in bold letters, folks should let me know.

No you are exactly right. That was Walsh's plan. We would've been in much better hands bad Walsh got his way and stayed. Held on to our picks and assets, maybe traded for Chris Paul etc.

People just don't get it. It's been 5yrs and they still don't get it

Here's another 5 years that some people just don't get:

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

That was the dawn of the Isiah Thomas era. Walsh was busy cleaning up his mess the last 2 seasons you posted.

Those don't count. It's like Watergate or Iran Contra, never happened.

Right. Remember that logic when you point out our W/L record with Melo and Jax's cleanup/tank job. Or don't forget the smilies when being sarcastic.

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo was heading to the Nets, it was strike summer and he was using an opt out. He needed surgery and was not interested in being a free agent.
He had leverage as he threatened to not resign if was not happy with where he landed. Basically the receiving team could lose him, this would kill his trade value so Denver delivered him where he wanted.

So while he could have been free to sign here, Bird rights, and the above all factored in. Regarding Deron, it would have been assumed Walsh or Dolan would have bit on that hard. Deron was a top 5 guard at the time. It would have been bad.

It's great. 5 years later and everyone forgets that Brooklyn was still in play.

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Anthony stated that he wanted to come to the Knicks...he had complete control over where he was going to play the next season.

I could be wrong...but wasn't the advantage of a sign and trade so Anthony could get an extra year on his contract...and didn't he end up opting out of that extra year to sign the contract he negotiated with Phil? Anthony would have had the same ability to sign a few contract when he did if he signed with us as a FA...No?

Even if you didn't care for the players we gave up in the trade- you could have used them as trade assets at a later point. We all know that the Cavs were willing to fork over picks for Mosgov, and Gallo could have gotten you something as well.

By the way...no guarantee that Gallo or Chandler would have gotten hurt they way they did in Denver if they had stayed with us.

Gave up our 2014 #1, which I don't think was as good of a pick as Denver hoped it would be, but it might have gotten us a decent player, or it could have been used in conjunction with a player to help the team improve.

Not sure how Denver used the 2nd Rnd picks we gave them.

Would have saved our Amnesty option- not even a need to decide on whether Billups should be amnestied because he would never have been on the team.

If I'm wrong on any of this, especially the part in bold letters, folks should let me know.

No you are exactly right. That was Walsh's plan. We would've been in much better hands bad Walsh got his way and stayed. Held on to our picks and assets, maybe traded for Chris Paul etc.

People just don't get it. It's been 5yrs and they still don't get it

Here's another 5 years that some people just don't get:

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

That was the dawn of the Isiah Thomas era. Walsh was busy cleaning up his mess the last 2 seasons you posted.

Those don't count. It's like Watergate or Iran Contra, never happened.

Isiah's era included acquiring the beginning of the prime years for all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee; prime years of perennial 6th man of the year candidate in Jamal Crawford and more than serviceable players like Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and the like. Walsh had far better assets than people ever credit.

Isiah's only sin here was Larry Brown and the Eddy Curry trade, which ****ed us out of Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge. Other than that, he did a pretty good job under dire circumstances that involved trying to get value out of 6 or 7-year contracts attached to one hit-wonders or 30-year old, past their prime players like Clearance Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Travis Knight and the like. Make no mistake, the original sin in all of this was Frank Layden's goofy ass.

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Anthony stated that he wanted to come to the Knicks...he had complete control over where he was going to play the next season.

I could be wrong...but wasn't the advantage of a sign and trade so Anthony could get an extra year on his contract...and didn't he end up opting out of that extra year to sign the contract he negotiated with Phil? Anthony would have had the same ability to sign a few contract when he did if he signed with us as a FA...No?

Even if you didn't care for the players we gave up in the trade- you could have used them as trade assets at a later point. We all know that the Cavs were willing to fork over picks for Mosgov, and Gallo could have gotten you something as well.

By the way...no guarantee that Gallo or Chandler would have gotten hurt they way they did in Denver if they had stayed with us.

Gave up our 2014 #1, which I don't think was as good of a pick as Denver hoped it would be, but it might have gotten us a decent player, or it could have been used in conjunction with a player to help the team improve.

Not sure how Denver used the 2nd Rnd picks we gave them.

Would have saved our Amnesty option- not even a need to decide on whether Billups should be amnestied because he would never have been on the team.

If I'm wrong on any of this, especially the part in bold letters, folks should let me know.

No you are exactly right. That was Walsh's plan. We would've been in much better hands bad Walsh got his way and stayed. Held on to our picks and assets, maybe traded for Chris Paul etc.

People just don't get it. It's been 5yrs and they still don't get it

Here's another 5 years that some people just don't get:

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

That was the dawn of the Isiah Thomas era. Walsh was busy cleaning up his mess the last 2 seasons you posted.

Those don't count. It's like Watergate or Iran Contra, never happened.

Isiah's era included acquiring the beginning of the prime years for all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee; prime years of perennial 6th man of the year candidate in Jamal Crawford and more than serviceable players like Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and the like. Walsh had far better assets than people ever credit.

Isiah's only sin here was Larry Brown and the Eddy Curry trade, which ****ed us out of Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge. Other than that, he did a pretty good job under dire circumstances that involved trying to get value out of 6 or 7-year contracts attached to one hit-wonders or 30-year old, past their prime players like Clearance Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Travis Knight and the like. Make no mistake, the original sin in all of this was Frank Layden's goofy ass.

Isiah's only sin? He's practically the devil. No mention of Jerome James or Stevie Franchise?

Covered Steve Francis with the Larry Brown mention. All reports point to him demanding Ariza to be traded and of him wanting Francis. There is even a pattern of this foolish; he did the same thing with the Bobcats when he demanded they take DJ Augustin (over Brook Lopez) despite already having Raymond Felton. So I give Isiah a pass for that one.

As for Jerome James, how did he really hurt the franchise? He was all-around useless but it didn't cost us any assets and there wasn't much of an opportunity cost involved with signing him. We gambled; we lost. I could have lived with that one because I wasn't footing the bill.

I'm not saying that Isiah was a great human being; I can't call that because I never met the man. And I'm unwilling to jump on the Anunche Browne bandwagon because of events that may or may not have occurred. All I'm judging the man on is his job performance, which in my opinion, was solid aside for the Curry deal and his choices in head coaches.

Case and point, we would have only been a 2-3 picks removed in 2012 from selecting either Jae Crowder or Draymond Green. Teams move up in the 2nd round all the time by packaging future 2nd round picks and our cash, so it was in the realm of possibility that we could've done the same with these picks and gotten either player. And considering the Mavericks' aversity to keeping picks, I think there would have been an odds-on bet that they would've been willing to trade down or out entirely if we approached them with multiple assets. Just imagine the impact a move like that would have had for not only us but the league!

Even if we had not gone this hypothetical route, Khris Middleton and Will Barton would've both been on the board with our pick and both have been pretty good ball players in recent seasons. I know I'm just splitting hairs but still felt that point needed to be made. We need to value ALL assets that are at our disposal; 2nd round picks too!

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo was heading to the Nets, it was strike summer and he was using an opt out. He needed surgery and was not interested in being a free agent.
He had leverage as he threatened to not resign if was not happy with where he landed. Basically the receiving team could lose him, this would kill his trade value so Denver delivered him where he wanted.

So while he could have been free to sign here, Bird rights, and the above all factored in. Regarding Deron, it would have been assumed Walsh or Dolan would have bit on that hard. Deron was a top 5 guard at the time. It would have been bad.

It's great. 5 years later and everyone forgets that Brooklyn was still in play.

Yes, Utah was waiting for whichever team landed Melo. The other one was getting Deron. Melo was headed to BK if NY didn't make this trade.

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Anthony stated that he wanted to come to the Knicks...he had complete control over where he was going to play the next season.

I could be wrong...but wasn't the advantage of a sign and trade so Anthony could get an extra year on his contract...and didn't he end up opting out of that extra year to sign the contract he negotiated with Phil? Anthony would have had the same ability to sign a few contract when he did if he signed with us as a FA...No?

Even if you didn't care for the players we gave up in the trade- you could have used them as trade assets at a later point. We all know that the Cavs were willing to fork over picks for Mosgov, and Gallo could have gotten you something as well.

By the way...no guarantee that Gallo or Chandler would have gotten hurt they way they did in Denver if they had stayed with us.

Gave up our 2014 #1, which I don't think was as good of a pick as Denver hoped it would be, but it might have gotten us a decent player, or it could have been used in conjunction with a player to help the team improve.

Not sure how Denver used the 2nd Rnd picks we gave them.

Would have saved our Amnesty option- not even a need to decide on whether Billups should be amnestied because he would never have been on the team.

If I'm wrong on any of this, especially the part in bold letters, folks should let me know.

No you are exactly right. That was Walsh's plan. We would've been in much better hands bad Walsh got his way and stayed. Held on to our picks and assets, maybe traded for Chris Paul etc.

People just don't get it. It's been 5yrs and they still don't get it

Here's another 5 years that some people just don't get:

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

That was the dawn of the Isiah Thomas era. Walsh was busy cleaning up his mess the last 2 seasons you posted.

Those don't count. It's like Watergate or Iran Contra, never happened.

Isiah's era included acquiring the beginning of the prime years for all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee; prime years of perennial 6th man of the year candidate in Jamal Crawford and more than serviceable players like Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and the like. Walsh had far better assets than people ever credit.

Isiah's only sin here was Larry Brown and the Eddy Curry trade, which ****ed us out of Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge. Other than that, he did a pretty good job under dire circumstances that involved trying to get value out of 6 or 7-year contracts attached to one hit-wonders or 30-year old, past their prime players like Clearance Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Travis Knight and the like. Make no mistake, the original sin in all of this was Frank Layden's goofy ass.

Isiah's only sin? He's practically the devil. No mention of Jerome James or Stevie Franchise?

Covered Steve Francis with the Larry Brown mention. All reports point to him demanding Ariza to be traded and of him wanting Francis. There is even a pattern of this foolish; he did the same thing with the Bobcats when he demanded they take DJ Augustin (over Brook Lopez) despite already having Raymond Felton. So I give Isiah a pass for that one.

As for Jerome James, how did he really hurt the franchise? He was all-around useless but it didn't cost us any assets and there wasn't much of an opportunity cost involved with signing him. We gambled; we lost. I could have lived with that one because I wasn't footing the bill.

I'm not saying that Isiah was a great human being; I can't call that because I never met the man. And I'm unwilling to jump on the Anunche Browne bandwagon because of events that may or may not have occurred. All I'm judging the man on is his job performance, which in my opinion, was solid aside for the Curry deal and his choices in head coaches.

What about when Isiah himself was the head coach of the Knicks(.341 winning percentage)? What will it take for you to wake up from your bad dream?

Solid job performance and NY Knicks...never thought I'd hear that about Zeke. You learn something new every day!

Never said anything about Isiah the coach. Was explicitly talking about him as an executive. But it was under Isiah that a number of our young players came into their own. People tend to forget that David Lee and Nate Robinson were eternally in Larry Brown's doghouse and that Eddy Curry's only good season came with Isiah at the helm. He had his faults but people pile on him because of false perceptions. Not sure what we expected out of a team filled with 2nd and 3rd year players.

The fact remains that his track record withstands those criticisms in both NY and IND. After all, guys like Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest and Al Harrington owed their careers to the work Isiah did in developing their talents as a coach.

LOL if you're going to mention the good times in Indiana, you have to mention the truly terribles ones too. The failed CBA. His stint in FIU. C'mon man, guy is in Basketball Hall of Shame for a reason.

And that's just his other failures. As a Knicks executive and coach he was in his prime:

— During his two seasons as Knicks coach, Thomas posted a 56-108 (.341) record. He proved he was just as bad a team president as he was a coach as the Knicks sported an identical 56-108 record during the two full seasons he served in that role (2004-05 and 2005-06).

All told, the Knicks were a staggering 112-216 during Thomas’ four full seasons at the Garden, and even though they snuck into the playoffs in 2004 with a 39-43 record (and were quickly swept by the Nets), they missed the playoffs in each of Thomas’ full seasons with the Knicks. Previously, the last time the Knicks had missed the playoffs even three seasons in a row came between 1984-87.

112-216 as Knicks president. Solid does not come to mind.

masud wrote:Deron was the better player at the time, he was traded to a terrible team and stopped caring. If he had gotten to go to the Knicks with Dantonis pg friendly system and a (then) healthy stat who knows what would have happened. Not to mention the fact that the nets gave up less than we did so we probably would have been able to hold on to more assets if we traded for Deron

Stat was the biggest problem we had and we couldn't fix it because we wrecklessly used our amnesty. Not sure how Deron would make Amare's body hold up. Even the red wine bathes were unsuccessful. If those didn't work, pretty sure nothing would.

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Anthony stated that he wanted to come to the Knicks...he had complete control over where he was going to play the next season.

I could be wrong...but wasn't the advantage of a sign and trade so Anthony could get an extra year on his contract...and didn't he end up opting out of that extra year to sign the contract he negotiated with Phil? Anthony would have had the same ability to sign a few contract when he did if he signed with us as a FA...No?

Even if you didn't care for the players we gave up in the trade- you could have used them as trade assets at a later point. We all know that the Cavs were willing to fork over picks for Mosgov, and Gallo could have gotten you something as well.

By the way...no guarantee that Gallo or Chandler would have gotten hurt they way they did in Denver if they had stayed with us.

Gave up our 2014 #1, which I don't think was as good of a pick as Denver hoped it would be, but it might have gotten us a decent player, or it could have been used in conjunction with a player to help the team improve.

Not sure how Denver used the 2nd Rnd picks we gave them.

Would have saved our Amnesty option- not even a need to decide on whether Billups should be amnestied because he would never have been on the team.

If I'm wrong on any of this, especially the part in bold letters, folks should let me know.

No you are exactly right. That was Walsh's plan. We would've been in much better hands bad Walsh got his way and stayed. Held on to our picks and assets, maybe traded for Chris Paul etc.

People just don't get it. It's been 5yrs and they still don't get it

Here's another 5 years that some people just don't get:

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

That was the dawn of the Isiah Thomas era. Walsh was busy cleaning up his mess the last 2 seasons you posted.

Those don't count. It's like Watergate or Iran Contra, never happened.

Isiah's era included acquiring the beginning of the prime years for all-stars Zach Randolph and David Lee; prime years of perennial 6th man of the year candidate in Jamal Crawford and more than serviceable players like Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and the like. Walsh had far better assets than people ever credit.

Isiah's only sin here was Larry Brown and the Eddy Curry trade, which ****ed us out of Joakim Noah and LaMarcus Aldridge. Other than that, he did a pretty good job under dire circumstances that involved trying to get value out of 6 or 7-year contracts attached to one hit-wonders or 30-year old, past their prime players like Clearance Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Travis Knight and the like. Make no mistake, the original sin in all of this was Frank Layden's goofy ass.

Isiah's only sin? He's practically the devil. No mention of Jerome James or Stevie Franchise?

Covered Steve Francis with the Larry Brown mention. All reports point to him demanding Ariza to be traded and of him wanting Francis. There is even a pattern of this foolish; he did the same thing with the Bobcats when he demanded they take DJ Augustin (over Brook Lopez) despite already having Raymond Felton. So I give Isiah a pass for that one.

As for Jerome James, how did he really hurt the franchise? He was all-around useless but it didn't cost us any assets and there wasn't much of an opportunity cost involved with signing him. We gambled; we lost. I could have lived with that one because I wasn't footing the bill.

I'm not saying that Isiah was a great human being; I can't call that because I never met the man. And I'm unwilling to jump on the Anunche Browne bandwagon because of events that may or may not have occurred. All I'm judging the man on is his job performance, which in my opinion, was solid aside for the Curry deal and his choices in head coaches.

What about when Isiah himself was the head coach of the Knicks(.341 winning percentage)? What will it take for you to wake up from your bad dream?

Solid job performance and NY Knicks...never thought I'd hear that about Zeke. You learn something new every day!

Never said anything about Isiah the coach. Was explicitly talking about him as an executive. But it was under Isiah that a number of our young players came into their own. People tend to forget that David Lee and Nate Robinson were eternally in Larry Brown's doghouse and that Eddy Curry's only good season came with Isiah at the helm. He had his faults but people pile on him because of false perceptions. Not sure what we expected out of a team filled with 2nd and 3rd year players.

The fact remains that his track record withstands those criticisms in both NY and IND. After all, guys like Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest and Al Harrington owed their careers to the work Isiah did in developing their talents as a coach.

LOL if you're going to mention the good times in Indiana, you have to mention the truly terribles ones too. The failed CBA. His stint in FIU. C'mon man, guy is in Basketball Hall of Shame for a reason.

And that's just his other failures. As a Knicks executive and coach he was in his prime:

— During his two seasons as Knicks coach, Thomas posted a 56-108 (.341) record. He proved he was just as bad a team president as he was a coach as the Knicks sported an identical 56-108 record during the two full seasons he served in that role (2004-05 and 2005-06).

All told, the Knicks were a staggering 112-216 during Thomas’ four full seasons at the Garden, and even though they snuck into the playoffs in 2004 with a 39-43 record (and were quickly swept by the Nets), they missed the playoffs in each of Thomas’ full seasons with the Knicks. Previously, the last time the Knicks had missed the playoffs even three seasons in a row came between 1984-87.

112-216 as Knicks president. Solid does not come to mind.

It amuses me that Walsh somehow had this steep hole to climb out of with a roster that had two future all-stars, one perennial 6th man of the year candidate and Jae Crowder before Jae Crowder (Wilson Chandler) but Isiah walked into a layup of a situation with a roster whose average age was 33 years old and Mike "I'll eat myself of the league the season after" Sweetney as the only young player on the roster.

Really?

Yes, we compiled a number of losses while Isiah was here but you seem to forget that inherited a mess but left the team with a number of assets. With most young players, however, you'll have growing pains hence the disjointed play at times and bad record. But make no mistake, he's Obama to Layden's George Bush. Had that Curry deal not gone down, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

masud wrote:And I'm tired of this revisionist history with the ammnesty. Nobody thought that was a bad move at the time because it got us tyson. Whose to say that if we let billups expire then used the amnesty on stat (probably would have taken management 2 years to get to that point where they would amnesty him) that we would have been better off? Chandler was one of our best players and we had no one to fill his role.

I don't think that's true. It's not really revisionist history, Amare was hurt when we used the amnesty on Billups. Many knew it was risky because you had no out for Amare. Agreed on the timeline piece, but we needed cap space for guards and let ourselves with no options. The roster construction made absolutely no sense.

I will never understand the love for Tyson. He did give us the one good year but couldn't finish it and basically cost us the Indy series by himself. In addition, he missed all kinds of time and gave no effort many games with fake illnesses (hasn't been sick in a while, maybe it is the dry air in Pho, who knows). He was also a terrible teammate. Constantly throwing people under the bus while taking zero accountability.