Many people see Kerr as some genius, yet Luke Walton has come in his place and done just as well. Sometimes it's also the talent and situation. Is it the fact that this Knicks team actually has .500 caliber talent that Fisher looks better? So it's hard to say. I will give him time. I feel for the talent we have, we've done solid. The season is far from over so there's still so much work to be done. Can't talk in absolutes yet.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Tactician??? I sometimes wonder when people say this about Fish if they ever consider that it is a process getting used to a team with 9 new players and teaching them to run a complicated system that asks all the players to think the game at a high level and as a group! There is nothing easy about getting a group of players to execute this system the way we've seen the last few games. Tactics is literally all he teaching his players as this is a READ and REACT offense.

Now he's been showing improvement on his feel for the game and his players so I think his tactics are coming along fine. Better tactics than Budenholzer or Spoelstra!

Sometimes I wonder how someone who has gotten so much wrong about this team over the years (far more than I have, thats for sure) can lecture anyone on considering anything.

Fisher makes adjustments when none are needed, and often too many. Ive seen rookie coaches do more with less. Preach the Gospel all you want, I want to see him make better in game decisions.

I was actually referring to the last 3 wins against those coaches! And as for this notion about me being wrong I think this is the most overused and unproven claim against me! You probably don't even know how my predictions rate over the last 5 years. Most certainly you aren't keeping track of every argument we discuss outside of season predictions to know how each of them turn out. It's just easy to go to that as an attack without proof.

Then once again you didnt read what I wrote before your little lecture. Once again, look at the bolded part where I pointed out the fact that Fisher has been improving as a tactician. I guess its easier to respond as if I never said it.

As for you being wrong, you are a relentless homer, and God bless you for it. At the same time being a homer, means going down with the ship, and in your case even after its become a coral reef. Again, God bless you for it, but you cant turn around and talk to posters as if they didnt think things though, or in some cases as if their thought process is somehow defective.

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Tactician??? I sometimes wonder when people say this about Fish if they ever consider that it is a process getting used to a team with 9 new players and teaching them to run a complicated system that asks all the players to think the game at a high level and as a group! There is nothing easy about getting a group of players to execute this system the way we've seen the last few games. Tactics is literally all he teaching his players as this is a READ and REACT offense.

Now he's been showing improvement on his feel for the game and his players so I think his tactics are coming along fine. Better tactics than Budenholzer or Spoelstra!

Sometimes I wonder how someone who has gotten so much wrong about this team over the years (far more than I have, thats for sure) can lecture anyone on considering anything.

Fisher makes adjustments when none are needed, and often too many. Ive seen rookie coaches do more with less. Preach the Gospel all you want, I want to see him make better in game decisions.

I was actually referring to the last 3 wins against those coaches! And as for this notion about me being wrong I think this is the most overused and unproven claim against me! You probably don't even know how my predictions rate over the last 5 years. Most certainly you aren't keeping track of every argument we discuss outside of season predictions to know how each of them turn out. It's just easy to go to that as an attack without proof.

Then once again you didnt read what I wrote before your little lecture. Once again, look at the bolded part where I pointed out the fact that Fisher has been improving as a tactician. I guess its easier to respond as if I never said it.

As for you being wrong, you are a relentless homer, and God bless you for it. At the same time being a homer, means going down with the ship, and in your case even after its become a coral reef. Again, God bless you for it, but you cant turn around and talk to posters as if they didnt think things though, or in some cases as if their thought process is somehow defective.

If you could get past your attitude with my posting style perhaps you would understand that I'm actually making sense more than you care to admit. Fish has had issues but not all the time! He's had good games as well as games where he has had issues but remember what he's dealing with is not a team that has been together or an offense that is easy to teach or learn. Rookies and low IQ guys mixed in. People want to kill him without really acknowledging just how much is on his plate. Plus he's doing this in New York of all places!!!

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Tactician??? I sometimes wonder when people say this about Fish if they ever consider that it is a process getting used to a team with 9 new players and teaching them to run a complicated system that asks all the players to think the game at a high level and as a group! There is nothing easy about getting a group of players to execute this system the way we've seen the last few games. Tactics is literally all he teaching his players as this is a READ and REACT offense.

Now he's been showing improvement on his feel for the game and his players so I think his tactics are coming along fine. Better tactics than Budenholzer or Spoelstra!

Sometimes I wonder how someone who has gotten so much wrong about this team over the years (far more than I have, thats for sure) can lecture anyone on considering anything.

Fisher makes adjustments when none are needed, and often too many. Ive seen rookie coaches do more with less. Preach the Gospel all you want, I want to see him make better in game decisions.

I was actually referring to the last 3 wins against those coaches! And as for this notion about me being wrong I think this is the most overused and unproven claim against me! You probably don't even know how my predictions rate over the last 5 years. Most certainly you aren't keeping track of every argument we discuss outside of season predictions to know how each of them turn out. It's just easy to go to that as an attack without proof.

Then once again you didnt read what I wrote before your little lecture. Once again, look at the bolded part where I pointed out the fact that Fisher has been improving as a tactician. I guess its easier to respond as if I never said it.

As for you being wrong, you are a relentless homer, and God bless you for it. At the same time being a homer, means going down with the ship, and in your case even after its become a coral reef. Again, God bless you for it, but you cant turn around and talk to posters as if they didnt think things though, or in some cases as if their thought process is somehow defective.

If you could get past your attitude with my posting style perhaps you would understand that I'm actually making sense more than you care to admit. Fish has had issues but not all the time! He's had good games as well as games where he has had issues but remember what he's dealing with is not a team that has been together or an offense that is easy to teach or learn. Rookies and low IQ guys mixed in. People want to kill him without really acknowledging just how much is on his plate. Plus he's doing this in New York of all places!!!

Many people have brought up the way you address other posters over the years, so its clearly not my attitude, its your attitude. It just never registers does it? Im tired and this isnt fun. Good night.

nixluva wrote:Well good night sir, not everyone has an issue with my posting.

But on the other hand . . . I'm learning a heck of a lot about the Xs and Os of the Triangle System from you (!)

gunsnewing wrote:

martin wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fisher will be evaluated at the end of the year. We finish with 40+ wins and make the playoffs he gets another full year and likely more. If we stumble again which I doubt since this team is starting to gel but let's say we win south of 35 games the. He will be on a short leash to start the year next season. It's quite simple. Fisher is in a completely different situation than Woodson. The Mnicks built it attempted to build a win now team for Woodson and he failed miserably. Fisher is starting from scratch. Not only is he learning to coach on the job but he is coaching a team that hit the reset button and is fortunate enough to have drafted a potential cornerstone franchise player who will be here for 15+ years. This is only the beginning. Everyone benefits from continuity in this case. They are learning to win together. On the same timeline. The end result will be very rewarding if they stick to the plan IMO

No he won't.

Generally, it's not the way you manage or the way Phil's philosophy portents to manage.

Generally no but this is New York. For all we know Phil had already considered finding a new coach had they not turned things around. He was not happy with how the players decided to just play their way and ignore all the things they've talked about for almost 2yrs. Someone laid down the hammer. Whether it was Fisher, Rambis or Phil to finally get them to play the right way. I know Fisher laid into the team after the Chicago game about bringing energy from the tip and they've been bringing it since.

IMO we are not looking reverting to old habits and going backwards. Only forward from here on out but trust me a sub 35 win season followed by a slow 1st half start next year and lack of progress from Fish will led to a change. Fisher doesn't have the cache warrant Dantoni like job security. I'm hoping we 40+ games this year and 45+ next year and keep trending upwards and eventually become a perennial contender in the East

so mostly you are just making stuff up? LOL Really, just making **** up and seeing if it sticks? Guns you better than that

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Fisher had a track record as a coach, I might be more patient. I am concerned about Melo's timeline because I believe its a big waste of the salary cap not to. I dont believe another season of Fisher trying to figure things out is good for anybody if he cant get this roster to play with some consistency.

There is still more than enough time for Fisher to prove that he can take this team to the next level. Just because there isnt a "mythical coach" on tap, doesnt mean we should stay with a coach, if he isnt up to the job. I havent seen enough evidence that he is yet. Not saying Fisher wont be a good coach, only that he hasnt come close to proving it yet, and I dont want to wait another season to find out.

Well, how do you judge Fish so far? And how would you judge him going forward? You already seem to suggest that firing him at the end of this season is a real possibility for you.

Is firing a coach that really healthy for the team? And is it even realistic?

Before this mini run, Gallo has developed nicely over the past year. KP, all by himself and also at the direction of the team has done very well. Last year was so scrub'ish at yet the guys were responding with enthusiastic play. The team responded to Fish calling them out in the media this past week. Before this year Rolo was never a post player.... and perhaps there is a hint of light on that. DWill before this year has been TRASHED by each team and coach, better this year?

I've seen enough to know that guys are responding and pointed in the right direction to not even think about letting him go at the end of this season without knowing the outcome (although I do have an expectation).

All the things you mentioned are good, but one major element has been lacking, and thats Fisher's skill as a tactician. You asked how I would judge him? Thats how I judge him going forward. You can get your team to run through a brick wall for you, but its good to be able to guide them around it too if neccesary.

Lately he's been finding out that sometimes small, effective, adjustments can have more of an impact than trying to do too much. I believe this season is enough time for Fisher to show growth as a tactitian. If not, Id like to see the Knicks get a better one, if available.

Games started in Nov. It's been 2 months. 9 new guys. Rookie starting, rookie coming off bench. Dleague guy last year making a contribution. 3 guys that were cast offs from other teams - Lance, KOQ, DWill. Starting center who has never been a real cog in the offense and asking to do so. Worst starting PG in the league. Difficult offense.

What else am I missing?

And you are worried about a tactician. No doubt that is important. About a year or so from now. Growth #1 for me.

And as I said this is all in NY with the Great Phil Jackson watching your every move!!! Most guys would piss their pants in this situation.

Knicks are in the earliest stages and the hope is you bring people in the organization and if one leaves, next man up to continue the philosophy, not keep changing from scheme to scheme.

Thus if Fish loses his team its likely because of personality or he decides he does not want the gig anymore. Whose next? Not Thibs. It would be a deciple of the triangle and one who would promote the zen.

It would appear Mills is being groomed to succeed phil but it would make sense that Mills be the financial guy but I don't know. Mills is a very smart guy and could overseas a basketball minded group to make basketball decisions. Maybe someone else that carries the Tex Winter>Phil triangle legacy.

But the thinking that Fish has done anything less than a very good job given the many variables that this team has gone thru since Woodson/Grunwald departed I just don't see anything close to that. I agree that knicks problems, especially last year was not due to coaching. In fact he kept that group from imploding. A mans meddle can be measured at how he handles himself at the worst of times.

Nalod wrote:Consistency? it begins with the organization. Notice its the loser organizations that keep making changes? It starts at the top. Rich men don't always make good owners. Iconic organizations that don't freak out year to year and build a base philosophy and understand build trust and continuity thru the organization. Owners are the boss, not GM's. Knicks made a big shift when they bought in phil not because of the starphuch, but the commitment to building culture and what that means. Its why the Spurs grow assistants and GM's under the leadership. It starts with their owner. Steelers over their history stick with a coach a long time. They do well with it. Even the Yankees with Girardi I think have done better with him then constantly changing. Cashen and Girardi been successful. Not perfect mind you.

Knicks are in the earliest stages and the hope is you bring people in the organization and if one leaves, next man up to continue the philosophy, not keep changing from scheme to scheme.

Thus if Fish loses his team its likely because of personality or he decides he does not want the gig anymore. Whose next? Not Thibs. It would be a deciple of the triangle and one who would promote the zen.

It would appear Mills is being groomed to succeed phil but it would make sense that Mills be the financial guy but I don't know. Mills is a very smart guy and could overseas a basketball minded group to make basketball decisions. Maybe someone else that carries the Tex Winter>Phil triangle legacy.

But the thinking that Fish has done anything less than a very good job given the many variables that this team has gone thru since Woodson/Grunwald departed I just don't see anything close to that. I agree that knicks problems, especially last year was not due to coaching. In fact he kept that group from imploding. A mans meddle can be measured at how he handles himself at the worst of times.

+1, Mr. 30K. Another post, another sig worthy line. It's so thoughtful and yet so pungently wrong, depending on how you read it.

I will be interested to see how the Spurs fare once the Pop machine is actually done.

I don't really think Mills is the one to follow someone of Phil's stature; not that we need yet another starphucque, but Mills smells too much of the Isaiah-era idiocy, IMHO. Let him continue handling the money.