nixluva wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:fisher is a terrible coach at Xs n Os. have you guys noticed how EVERY SINGLE OFFENSIVE PLAY starts off with a pass from the wing to the center perimeter to the other wing followed by a feed to mid-range wing if possible?

TOO FREAKIN PREDICTABLE!!!

What do you really know about the X's and O's of this offense? The passes seem meaningless but that's the nature of the Triangle. It's a multiple pass offense, with off ball motion and it's up to the players to be more creative within the flow of the offense. It doesn't have to be so predictable but if you don't have guards that can shake it up then it will look pretty predictable. As for Fish and his X's and O's I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you really think he doesn't know basketball at a high level. IMO most of the guys who complain don't even know what they're looking at when it comes to the Triangle.

Most PnR based offenses aren't exactly complicated either. This team needs more aggressiveness at guard in order to make it less predictable. We don't get enough early offense and end up running way too much of the Half Court offense and being forced into taking poor shots. If the wings and guards aren't playing aggressively then you end up with the post ups and midrange stuff. This is not the fault of the offense.

If you have individual ability to create a shot then you can and should use it if there's nothing else or the opening is there. We don't have a lot of players with that kind of ability so this offense actually helps them to get shots with having to do as much. If you are moving and moving the ball you can get some great looks. Still ALL of the scoring opportunities can't come against the set defense. Pushing the ball and looking for easy scoring is still needed.

lets put it this way... i dont have to know everything about the offense to see how it develops with the knicks. its up to the coach to run unpredictable plays or demand players from phil that will help him run them.

now...what do you know about Xs n Os of this offense and how does that in any way matter to fisher's predictable "coaching"?

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:Good players make every coach look better. When you have a floor leader that has the talent to not only score but set up teammates and break down a defense, there's a LOT less the coach has to worry about. You can roll the ball out if you have skilled and smart players with great talent. Right now the Knicks have Melo and a very young and inexperienced KP. That's not a lot to work with. We've got some good role play from LT this year and DWILL does seem to have the X Factor off the bench we wanted to see from him. RoLo has been up and down and clearly he has trouble with certain types of modern bigs that can really move and step away from the basket.

Fish's lack of experience and trying to learn his roster at the same time facing a STIFF East this year has had a huge impact on him. I think if you gave him more talent at guard he would be able to compete much better with these other teams. It's really a huge factor when you don't have the talent at guard in a guard dominant league. Phil no doubt sees this. He probably left that open slot and added guards like Jimmer to the D league team expressly because he knew this could be a problem. I wanna see the team with better play at guard!!!

and a bad coach / bad system can make their players look much worse

Oh my! I am beginning to love the 2016 mreinman. About time you shine the light on the roach

just playing devils advocate. Not sure about fisher yet though I never cared for him as a player or a coach.

I do know that I hate this stupid system.

I noticed that neither of you commented on my other points about the talent at guard. If you had any upgrade at PG that could substantially change the equation for this team. It would make all of the things Fish is actually coaching the team to do, much more effective. Everyone is so ready to blame the coach but MOST of what happens on the floor is about the players. You replace Jose with even an average level NBA PG and you're talking about a totally different team IMO. So I can't kill Fish too much about his mistakes because they're made that much more crucial due to the issues we have at guard. Fish doesn't have the margin for error that most coaches do that have guards that can make the game easier for everyone.

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
31	M. Carter-Williams, MIL	29	30.0	.501	26.4	14.9	23.0	3.6	13.7	8.7	14.68	47.8	1.6
32	Avery Bradley, BOS	30	31.9	.549	10.9	8.4	19.3	1.6	6.6	4.1	14.17	45.2	1.5
33	Shane Larkin, BKN	28	19.1	.540	32.7	12.5	18.9	1.4	11.4	6.3	16.30	42.3	1.4
34	Goran Dragic, MIA	31	32.2	.515	27.8	12.6	20.0	2.5	9.2	6.0	13.77	41.3	1.4
35	J.J. Barea, DAL	        27	21.9	.541	27.8	11.2	23.2	1.8	6.9	4.4	15.50	39.7	1.3
        Jose Calderon, NY	34	26.8	.612	34.9	9.3	12.9	1.3	10.3	5.9	13.92	39.7	1.3
37	Aaron Brooks, CHI	23	16.6	.550	19.9	9.2	24.5	3.3	8.8	6.1	16.93	33.7	1.1
38	George Hill, IND	29	34.8	.536	20.0	9.6	15.9	2.2	10.3	6.2	13.15	32.4	1.1
39	M. Dellavedova, CLE	29	28.3	.564	36.0	10.8	16.2	1.7	7.4	4.6	13.58	31.7	1.1
40	Mo Williams, CLE	24	25.0	.557	23.0	12.8	22.2	0.8	10.5	5.7	14.37	30.2	1.0
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
61	Greivis Vasquez, MIL	16	22.6	.463	31.7	13.4	19.9	1.3	10.5	5.9	9.35	-8.9	-0.3
62	D.J. Augustin, OKC	31	15.7	.523	27.3	13.2	14.7	1.2	6.4	4.0	9.29	-12.4	-0.4
63	Jameer Nelson, DEN	30	26.8	.469	31.9	11.7	17.9	1.5	11.2	6.2	9.77	-14.7	-0.5
64	Ty Lawson, HOU	        31	25.0	.463	32.4	13.7	15.9	2.0	6.2	4.0	9.47	-17.6	-0.6
65	Norris Cole, NO	        15	22.7	.425	15.5	10.9	20.2	1.3	12.8	7.0	7.11	-19.8	-0.7
66	Austin Rivers, LAC	31	21.8	.489	13.0	9.8	16.5	2.1	7.4	4.7	8.99	-20.4	-0.7
67	Jerian Grant, NY	31	16.1	.438	23.9	14.3	19.2	1.8	10.3	6.1	7.97	-22.5	-0.8
68	Emmanuel Mudiay, DEN	23	29.1	.380	24.2	16.7	27.5	2.9	10.7	6.7	6.75	-42.4	-1.4

Gallo and Afflalo are least passable at SG. Tho neither is actually at a league average PER. It's the PG spot that is really dragging.

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
21	K. Caldwell-Pope, DET	33	37.6	.501	11.7	7.1	16.9	2.3	7.7	4.9	12.17	30.8	1.0
22	Evan Turner, BOS	32	26.4	.482	25.3	12.8	19.7	2.5	15.8	9.1	12.74	28.2	0.9
23	Rodney Hood, UTAH	30	29.9	.509	16.5	9.7	20.1	1.7	9.8	5.7	12.30	24.1	0.8
24	Wesley Matthews, DAL	31	31.6	.539	11.4	7.5	17.3	1.4	9.2	5.3	12.08	23.1	0.8
25	Langston Galloway, NY	34	24.5	.509	21.5	6.7	15.0	2.5	13.2	8.0	12.26	21.9	0.7
26	R. Hollis-Jefferson,BKN	19	22.1	.525	19.0	14.8	11.9	8.2	22.6	15.3	13.71	20.1	0.7
27	Ian Patrick Clark, GS	27	9.0	.605	14.8	12.0	20.4	2.8	9.3	6.2	15.52	18.1	0.6
28	Courtney Lee, MEM	34	28.9	.529	12.6	7.8	15.1	1.6	9.2	5.2	11.68	17.3	0.6
29	Kevin Martin, MIN	26	25.0	.506	9.2	6.8	21.4	0.9	9.0	5.0	12.17	16.2	0.5
30	Arron Afflalo, NY	26	31.0	.527	11.5	6.5	17.8	1.2	12.3	6.9	11.81	15.8	0.5

Our guards must play better or must be replaced. This has to be Phil's sole focus right now.

guard was a 5 star alarm going off before the season started but you were convinced that grant would come in flying.

"5 Star Alarm" is a bit over the top! Guard was a concern but no one could say for sure how Jerian would adjust to the NBA. I was hopeful that he could handle the role and he looked much better than this but he lost his confidence. Obviously Phil and the coaches also thought Jerian could play better than this. It Happens!!! If you're gonna suggest that anyone expected Jerian to fall off like this you're full of crap. Struggling a bit is one thing but he was not playing this poorly early on.

It's a mental block IMO. He has to get past it but until that happens we must look for help for right now. I was hopeful that Jerian could play well enough to take the job from Jose and with Jose as a back up it would be much better for us. In any event Phil has to address the need at PG for right now.

Nix :-)

C'mon ... you thought he was going to be good right away and had crazy high expectations and I didn't.

You had ridiculously high expectations this season as you did last season and of course I didn't.

You predict like you are a diehard fan which I get.

I didn't have "ridiculously high expectations" for Jerian. I did like Jerian to be much better than this tho. I wasn't suggesting he was going to be a superstar in year one as you are making it sound now. Thinking Jerian could play well enough to help the team isn't ridiculous. This is what you do tho. You take my support for a player and turn it into someone suggesting ROY, which I was never suggesting. Jerian did start off the season playing with more confidence and at that time you didn't say **** but now you can talk like everything I was predicting hasn't worked out.

I don't predict like a diehard fan, I try to use logic based on a players skills and talent. Jerian has the talent to play better than he has of late. I notice that you aren't saying the same things about LT and DWill who I felt could be good performers for this team. In fact I've gotten more right about how this team would play than I got wrong. You want to cherry pick Jerian since he's had the worst struggles so far. No one is perfect at predicting anything but if you just stay negative about everything no one ever really checks you on it.

Dwil still stinks because of brain shrinkage and nobody really expected this out of LT (aside from people who think that everyone is gonna be great)

What you seem to be missing is percentages and odds when predicting an outcome. What are the odds that a middle round PG turns into a Teague or Conley? TERRIBLE. Yet, you say, "why not"? Well ... because its way too big of a stretch and the odds of that happening are terrible. Expecting a player as good as Charlie Ward was also a bit of a stretch but a much better prediction/expectation.

I picked 33 wins. Thats a good prediction. 40-45 is a bad prediction. Thats why vegas knows what they are doing and diehards are not setting over/unders.

Knicks1969 wrote:Thé problem with the Knicks is deeper than just the PG spot. Most of you continue to overlook the performance of the coach on the sideline. Let's take last night's game and analyze it a little; the first ten minutes, we got beat badly from the jump. Our back court was very slow at Every phase of the game and needed to be pulled off the court after the first two minutes. Fisher waited until we got down by 18 points to finally make a change. The team found itself fighting an uphill battle all through the third quarter. The bottom finally fell off, in the forth, because our dudes put out way too much energy to catch up.

I am telling you folks, we do have a terrible PG in the back court, but the former PG/SG who is now our roach is even worst. I don't care how many great players Phil decides to bring in, until Fisher becomes a coach, we will never be good. We might win a few games when we have three guys that can give us double digit scoring together in any given night, but when shots are not falling and we need to rely on the coach to strategize, we will always be in the losing end, because fisher is not yet a coach.

And this is the thing that you seem to just keep on over looking over and over again which is i don't think anyone on here thinks Fisher is doing a great job even i don't and i argue with you like crazy on here about him but i and others just notice everything that we're dealing with from top to bottom which you don't. You seem to just gloss over the FACT that Fisher has been put in a tough position with the teams he's been given to coach for a first time head coach and it would be tough teams for any coach. That team he had to coach last year was a absolute mess so how can any coach grow when having to coach a mess like that?? If Fisher had a team that had more than 1/2 legit starters it would be a different story but he doesn't have that. What he does have a a team full of bench players and full of players trying to learn a system they've never played in before but you for some odd reason seem to think that Fisher should be winning most of his games and that's just not reality. So is Fisher doing some great job?? No, but he's also in a tough situation.

Cartman718 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:fisher is a terrible coach at Xs n Os. have you guys noticed how EVERY SINGLE OFFENSIVE PLAY starts off with a pass from the wing to the center perimeter to the other wing followed by a feed to mid-range wing if possible?

TOO FREAKIN PREDICTABLE!!!

What do you really know about the X's and O's of this offense? The passes seem meaningless but that's the nature of the Triangle. It's a multiple pass offense, with off ball motion and it's up to the players to be more creative within the flow of the offense. It doesn't have to be so predictable but if you don't have guards that can shake it up then it will look pretty predictable. As for Fish and his X's and O's I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you really think he doesn't know basketball at a high level. IMO most of the guys who complain don't even know what they're looking at when it comes to the Triangle.

Most PnR based offenses aren't exactly complicated either. This team needs more aggressiveness at guard in order to make it less predictable. We don't get enough early offense and end up running way too much of the Half Court offense and being forced into taking poor shots. If the wings and guards aren't playing aggressively then you end up with the post ups and midrange stuff. This is not the fault of the offense.

If you have individual ability to create a shot then you can and should use it if there's nothing else or the opening is there. We don't have a lot of players with that kind of ability so this offense actually helps them to get shots with having to do as much. If you are moving and moving the ball you can get some great looks. Still ALL of the scoring opportunities can't come against the set defense. Pushing the ball and looking for easy scoring is still needed.

lets put it this way... i dont have to know everything about the offense to see how it develops with the knicks. its up to the coach to run unpredictable plays or demand players from phil that will help him run them.

now...what do you know about Xs n Os of this offense and how does that in any way matter to fisher's predictable "coaching"?

nixluva wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:fisher is a terrible coach at Xs n Os. have you guys noticed how EVERY SINGLE OFFENSIVE PLAY starts off with a pass from the wing to the center perimeter to the other wing followed by a feed to mid-range wing if possible?

TOO FREAKIN PREDICTABLE!!!

What do you really know about the X's and O's of this offense? The passes seem meaningless but that's the nature of the Triangle. It's a multiple pass offense, with off ball motion and it's up to the players to be more creative within the flow of the offense. It doesn't have to be so predictable but if you don't have guards that can shake it up then it will look pretty predictable. As for Fish and his X's and O's I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you really think he doesn't know basketball at a high level. IMO most of the guys who complain don't even know what they're looking at when it comes to the Triangle.

Most PnR based offenses aren't exactly complicated either. This team needs more aggressiveness at guard in order to make it less predictable. We don't get enough early offense and end up running way too much of the Half Court offense and being forced into taking poor shots. If the wings and guards aren't playing aggressively then you end up with the post ups and midrange stuff. This is not the fault of the offense.

If you have individual ability to create a shot then you can and should use it if there's nothing else or the opening is there. We don't have a lot of players with that kind of ability so this offense actually helps them to get shots with having to do as much. If you are moving and moving the ball you can get some great looks. Still ALL of the scoring opportunities can't come against the set defense. Pushing the ball and looking for easy scoring is still needed.

THIS!, yes. The hard-core critics of Fisher are unconcerned about the context under which he is "coaching". This "team" has played together for the whole of say 4 - 6 months. A few are NBA starters, many are former second-bananas who are trying to earn their way up. Almost every one of these players is just learning to play together in a system.

It's called a learning curve. Many of you continue to play a blame game with the triangle. You all are far more obsessed with it than the players. No system is going to win games with what is a so-so team at the moment. The reason the system looks slow or predictable is a metric of how comfortable the players are in achieving a degree of competence with it. It NEEDS TO BE PREDICTABLE at first to begin gaining confidence that everyone gets it (even at the expense of the opposing team "getting it"). As the players master it, the predictability shifts from checkers to chess level complexity. We aren't there yet.

And I can hear the "BUT, BUT, BUT [we could'a won if only, if only...]. The fact is that you can't just throw away a system in attempts to win winnable games. If you win, the system loses veracity, if you lose it opens the door to ignoring the system for personal stats. Fisher has been consistent and that's a good thing for the long run - painful today.

fwk00 wrote:

knickscity wrote:The offense is n issue because the players are clearly having issues with it. Too many pros in the game have said so, and they know more about that ANYONE on this board. Rick Fox has said it, he's played in it on a PRO level. Does anyone here know more than him? How about Kobe?

Enough with that nonsense.

Now, the team needs a major injection of talent as well, but there's no guarantee that talent will get this offense. It's a vicious circle and this team really cannot afford to keep resetting the clock.

Phil is obviously not resetting clocks. He's being quite cautious in making moves because he expects mistakes on a newly formed team. What he's assembled is an interesting core group - its always a crap shoot as to injuries, temperament, and lady fortune. He's not done tinkering but he's not panicking so why are so many of the critics on the ledge?

IMO, its because there's zero understanding of the growth and maturation process for players and coaches. Win or lose this team has a long road to travel before they're legitimate contenders and the pundits know it. The "professional" cheap shots and Captain Obvious criticisms of the players and coaches is predictable and will continue until Phil gets his next ring.

As far the criticisms go, they should be there until the team at a minimum provides some winning basketball.