knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:
For the most part the league as a whole only use part or principles but dont run it exclusively. The triangle is an oudated offense, any coach will tell you that. Those same coaches know that they also dont have time to instill it especially considering it goes against what players do in this day and winning is expected. Now way Fisher would have been given this amount of rope if his mentor wasnt a triangle promoter.

I know you're gonna say it doesnt prevent guys from driving to the goal with the ball....yes it actually does. While the teams talent has improved, the style of play is still behind the NBA scene. You cant keep blaming the players, it is the offense. The triangle doesnt promote a fast break, drawing fouls at the line or drives into the paint. It focuses on mid range action. Doesnt mean those things cant happen within the offense, but the triangle itself does not promote such things.

An offense needs to suit your players, plain and simple. There's a reason why a player like Calderon was picked and not a player like Rondo for instance. Rondo calls his number, runs a play based on what he sees. Calderon merely makes a safe ball movement pass. The triangle does not allow such play for a Rondo.. You have to break it to do it. Kobe Jordan and others have done so, but top players of the game can be effective just by handing them the ball.

Some actually believe a prime Jordan or Kobe wouldnt have won anything without the triangle.....utterly ridiculous.

You don't really understand the Triangle and it's clear from your comments that you don't.

Did you know that there is an entire aspect of the Triangle addressing Transition? So this notion that it limits fast breaks is completely wrong. Did you know that there is PnR action in the Triangle even if they don't make it the center of the offense? Did you know that there is a 4 out option in the offense? There are so many aspects that people don't realize but just make assumptions about the offense. There are dribble weaves and all kinds of actions leading to drives to the basket and not just mid range stuff. They don't really want players standing around and the ball stopping. The better they get at this the better the offense will work. The more they learn this offense as a group the faster they'll be and it will be harder to defend. I'm speaking from actual knowledge of the offense and not just out of my ass.

The thing is that it takes time to learn all of these things and in the heat of the action a young player can get mental paralysis which makes it seem like there are no options when there are. The longer our players play in this system the better they will get and that's the reason you stick with it. It's nonsense to talk about it being an outdated system. IT'S BASKETBALL!

Maybe you dont understand the triangle. Pick and rolls are usually a part of any offense, so why do we run the least of any team? Fast breaks should be a major part of any teams offense. We're dead last in that as well, as well as free throws attempted. The Knicks play a stupid brand of basketball, when they play smarter basically ditching the trinagle, they look better and play better.

We have calderon as our starting point guard, the guy you personally was slobbing on when he first got here that does nothing a real pg should in todays NBA. He fits the triangle perfectly, and thats why he's here.

I really think no matter what we run you'll be singing from the rooftops trying to support it. Fine, do you. But the Knicks have an very outdated system, and not only will they not make the playoffs running it, they wont prove Phil is right that this system works.

You're speaking from ignorance and don't know what you're talking about!!! If you did know you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. We're not dead last in Fast Breaks because of the Triangle. The Knicks don't ditch the Triangle. The thing you see when they are playing well is that they are actually executing the offense properly.

Just cuz they score in other ways besides the Side Triangle doesn't mean that they "ditched" the Triangle. You just don't realize that there's more to the offense than the Side Triangle. As i've said OVER AND OVER, the Triple Post Offense is more than the Side Triangle!!! If people would stop focusing on only the Side Triangle and learn more about the offense they'd know this.

THE KNICKS DO NOT DITCH THE TRIANGLE! I can prove to you that they are very much still running the offense. The problem is that you and many others think that the Side Triangle is the total offense when it's not. You don't know all the other sets and actions and so when they do them you don't recognize that it's still part of the SYSTEM as a whole. They aren't just freelancing all the time when they aren't in Side Triangle.

are offense is not a spread offense and we do set the least picks yet you skipped over this in your rebuttal(s)

The ball handler could call for a pick any time he wanted within the offense. Which is why NIX defends that its not the Triangle system but the players.

We also don't push the tempo like we should on a consistent bases due to Calderon not being that type player a this point in his career and Grant and Galloway not being confident enough to take control of the pace though they show flashes.

I don't believe that its the players. They are trying to run the plays that they are coached to run.

Every PG in the league uses non stops picks to get free and we want ours to just take their guys off the dribble which they can't and it does not help that we have so many players inside the arc and not spread out.

It's at best a combo of both. I do recall even gary Payton had issues in this offense, basically said he's used to pick and roll action. The triangle really needs higher caliber players, but I do think this group would be better running simpler plays.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Was that possession/pace adjusted?

pretty sure it was. If it was not then we would not be last, we would not even make it to the chart.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.

thats another issue. We set very few picks and when we do, they are terrible. Perhaps if they did it all the time they would be better at it?

part of the issue is that our guards are not being taught how to lead their defender into the pick. They don't get tight enough.

Agree. I don't know if its a NY playground thing, its just odd that coach after coach who comes to NY places almost no emphasis on setting picks. If they do it lasts for a few games at most.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.

thats another issue. We set very few picks and when we do, they are terrible. Perhaps if they did it all the time they would be better at it?

part of the issue is that our guards are not being taught how to lead their defender into the pick. They don't get tight enough.

Agree. I don't know if its a NY playground thing, its just odd that coach after coach who comes to NY places almost no emphasis on setting picks. If they do it lasts for a few games at most.

besides rolo who sets phenomenal picks. People don't realize how valuable this is and how under utilized it is.

And again, its on our guards too. Jose is to slow to hit the pick well and Gallo is plain terrible at the angles of using the picks.

Carmelo should be setting loads of picks but he does not really set them or like picks set for him. Definitely playground mentality there.

Picks also wear down the opposing players over the course of a game. Melo is part of a longstanding problem when it comes to that dept. More annoying to me is Melo rarely has picks/screens set for him.

It should be an important part of the teams'strategy for Melo moving forward, as his ability to get to the rim at will is starting to decline. Not to mention, cutting down on wear and tear. A few games ago, Lopez set some great picks for Melo to do some catch and shoot. It could be a serious fing weapon if it was part of his repertoire.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.

thats another issue. We set very few picks and when we do, they are terrible. Perhaps if they did it all the time they would be better at it?

part of the issue is that our guards are not being taught how to lead their defender into the pick. They don't get tight enough.

Agree. I don't know if its a NY playground thing, its just odd that coach after coach who comes to NY places almost no emphasis on setting picks. If they do it lasts for a few games at most.

besides rolo who sets phenomenal picks. People don't realize how valuable this is and how under utilized it is.

And again, its on our guards too. Jose is to slow to hit the pick well and Gallo is plain terrible at the angles of using the picks.

Carmelo should be setting loads of picks but he does not really set them or like picks set for him. Definitely playground mentality there.

Picks also wear down the opposing players over the course of a game. Melo is part of a longstanding problem when it comes to that dept. More annoying to me is Melo rarely has picks/screens set for him.

It should be an important part of the teams's strategy for Melo moving forward, as his ability to get to the rim at will is starting to decline. Not to mention, cutting down on wear and tear. A few games ago, Lopez set some great picks for Melo to do some catch and shoot. It could be a serious fing weapon if it was part of his repertoire.

I agree about melo needing more picks but he really likes 1 v 1 better but he is not the same player that he was and of course this style is very taxing.

Most teams set multiple picks on each possession. We should just watch how crushing these picks are for our guards.

Yeah, you will never hear Melo complain about the lack of picks. Its on whoever is the coach to bring it up.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.

thats another issue. We set very few picks and when we do, they are terrible. Perhaps if they did it all the time they would be better at it?

part of the issue is that our guards are not being taught how to lead their defender into the pick. They don't get tight enough.

Agree. I don't know if its a NY playground thing, its just odd that coach after coach who comes to NY places almost no emphasis on setting picks. If they do it lasts for a few games at most.

besides rolo who sets phenomenal picks. People don't realize how valuable this is and how under utilized it is.

And again, its on our guards too. Jose is to slow to hit the pick well and Gallo is plain terrible at the angles of using the picks.

Carmelo should be setting loads of picks but he does not really set them or like picks set for him. Definitely playground mentality there.

Picks also wear down the opposing players over the course of a game. Melo is part of a longstanding problem when it comes to that dept. More annoying to me is Melo rarely has picks/screens set for him.

It should be an important part of the teams's strategy for Melo moving forward, as his ability to get to the rim at will is starting to decline. Not to mention, cutting down on wear and tear. A few games ago, Lopez set some great picks for Melo to do some catch and shoot. It could be a serious fing weapon if it was part of his repertoire.

I agree about melo needing more picks but he really likes 1 v 1 better but he is not the same player that he was and of course this style is very taxing.

Most teams set multiple picks on each possession. We should just watch how crushing these picks are for our guards.

Yeah, you will never hear Melo complain about the lack of picks. Its on whoever is the coach to bring it up.

I don't think that fisher has the clout to force Melo to use picks. Melo has to want it and I don't think that he does. He likes the iso, jab step, take his man off the dribble, mid range shot of the jab steps ...

Dont want to get in the weeds on this, but I dont blame Melo for thinking that way, its a baller's mentality.

To me its a matter of getting Melo to buy in. I would tell him that his shooting touch is a deadly weapon, which is separate from his ability to create space or get to the rim, and he should exploit that ability whenever possible. I would also sell him on it taking the steam out of his defender, which would help him stay competitive as his ability to get to the rim diminishes.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:^^^^^^^

What are the PnR rates for the Knicks? I know a few weeks ago both Grant and Calderon were running PnR on over 30% of their possessions which was a pretty good rate

I saw an article recently that the knicks set the fewest picks in the league

Unfortunately this has been going on for many many years. As you know, ROLO is one of the few players who consistently sets picks, good ones.

thats another issue. We set very few picks and when we do, they are terrible. Perhaps if they did it all the time they would be better at it?

part of the issue is that our guards are not being taught how to lead their defender into the pick. They don't get tight enough.

Agree. I don't know if its a NY playground thing, its just odd that coach after coach who comes to NY places almost no emphasis on setting picks. If they do it lasts for a few games at most.

besides rolo who sets phenomenal picks. People don't realize how valuable this is and how under utilized it is.

And again, its on our guards too. Jose is to slow to hit the pick well and Gallo is plain terrible at the angles of using the picks.

Carmelo should be setting loads of picks but he does not really set them or like picks set for him. Definitely playground mentality there.

Picks also wear down the opposing players over the course of a game. Melo is part of a longstanding problem when it comes to that dept. More annoying to me is Melo rarely has picks/screens set for him.

It should be an important part of the teams's strategy for Melo moving forward, as his ability to get to the rim at will is starting to decline. Not to mention, cutting down on wear and tear. A few games ago, Lopez set some great picks for Melo to do some catch and shoot. It could be a serious fing weapon if it was part of his repertoire.

I agree about melo needing more picks but he really likes 1 v 1 better but he is not the same player that he was and of course this style is very taxing.

Most teams set multiple picks on each possession. We should just watch how crushing these picks are for our guards.

Yeah, you will never hear Melo complain about the lack of picks. Its on whoever is the coach to bring it up.

I don't think that fisher has the clout to force Melo to use picks. Melo has to want it and I don't think that he does. He likes the iso, jab step, take his man off the dribble, mid range shot of the jab steps ...

Dont want to get in the weeds on this, but I dont blame Melo for thinking that way, its a baller's mentality.

To me its a matter of getting Melo to buy in. I would tell him that his shooting touch is a deadly weapon, which is separate from his ability to create space or get to the rim, and he should exploit that ability whenever possible. I would also sell him on it taking the steam out of his defender, which would help him stay competitive as his ability to get to the rim diminishes.

good luck selling all that to him :-)

When he was a kid, fat chance lol. I believe at this stage in his career, Melo is more open to new ideas if it helps the team, and helps him produce well enough to make the all star game. He's shown he's open to change by asking for KP to have a bigger role in the offense.

Jose Calderon, Kevin Seraphin and Cleanthony "Captain Ahab" Early to the Clippers for Lance Stephenson, CJ Wilcox and two future unprotected second round picks. The benefits of the deal have been talked about ad nauseum so I won't rehash them again.

I'd also try to target the Suns' backcourt of Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight, which could be possible if the Suns want to rebuild....

Knicks Trade:Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Jerian Grant, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC) and $3 million cash
Knicks Recieve: Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight and Alex Ajinca

Suns Trade: Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight
Suns Recieve: Jrue Holiday, Jerian Grant, Tyreke Evans, cash, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC)

Pelicans Trade: Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans and Alexis Ajinca
Pelicans Receieve:: Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Brandon Jennnings and Jodie Meeks

Pistons Trade: Brandon Jennings and Jolie Meeks
Pistons Receieve: Eric Gordon

NardDogNation wrote:I want to rebuild around Porzingis but since we seem focused on building with both he AND Melo, here goes....

Jose Calderon, Kevin Seraphin and Cleanthony "Captain Ahab" Early to the Clippers for Lance Stephenson, CJ Wilcox and two future unprotected second round picks. The benefits of the deal have been talked about ad nauseum so I won't rehash them again.

I'd also try to target the Suns' backcourt of Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight, which could be possible if the Suns want to rebuild....

Knicks Trade:Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Jerian Grant, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC) and $3 million cash
Knicks Recieve: Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight and Alex Ajinca

Suns Trade: Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight
Suns Recieve: Jrue Holiday, Jerian Grant, Tyreke Evans, cash, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC)

Pelicans Trade: Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans and Alexis Ajinca
Pelicans Receieve:: Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Brandon Jennnings and Jodie Meeks

Pistons Trade: Brandon Jennings and Jolie Meeks
Pistons Receieve: Eric Gordon

Come the offseason, I'd throw a quasi-max, light in years contract at Batum. It'd effectively make our rotation...

STARTERS
PG: Brandon Knight
SG: Eric Bledsoe
SF: Nicolas Batum
PF: Carmelo Anthony
C: Kristaps Porzingis

BENCH
G: Jimmer Fredette
G: Lance Stephenson
SF: Lance Thomas
F: Derrick Williams
C: Kyle O'Quinn

NardDogNation wrote:I want to rebuild around Porzingis but since we seem focused on building with both he AND Melo, here goes....

Jose Calderon, Kevin Seraphin and Cleanthony "Captain Ahab" Early to the Clippers for Lance Stephenson, CJ Wilcox and two future unprotected second round picks. The benefits of the deal have been talked about ad nauseum so I won't rehash them again.

I'd also try to target the Suns' backcourt of Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight, which could be possible if the Suns want to rebuild....

Knicks Trade:Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Jerian Grant, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC) and $3 million cash
Knicks Recieve: Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight and Alex Ajinca

Suns Trade: Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight
Suns Recieve: Jrue Holiday, Jerian Grant, Tyreke Evans, cash, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC)

Pelicans Trade: Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans and Alexis Ajinca
Pelicans Receieve:: Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Brandon Jennnings and Jodie Meeks

Pistons Trade: Brandon Jennings and Jolie Meeks
Pistons Receieve: Eric Gordon

newyorker4ever wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I want to rebuild around Porzingis but since we seem focused on building with both he AND Melo, here goes....

Jose Calderon, Kevin Seraphin and Cleanthony "Captain Ahab" Early to the Clippers for Lance Stephenson, CJ Wilcox and two future unprotected second round picks. The benefits of the deal have been talked about ad nauseum so I won't rehash them again.

I'd also try to target the Suns' backcourt of Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight, which could be possible if the Suns want to rebuild....

Knicks Trade:Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Jerian Grant, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC) and $3 million cash
Knicks Recieve: Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight and Alex Ajinca

Suns Trade: Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight
Suns Recieve: Jrue Holiday, Jerian Grant, Tyreke Evans, cash, two future 2nd round picks (via LAC)

Pelicans Trade: Eric Gordon, Jrue Holiday, Tyreke Evans and Alexis Ajinca
Pelicans Receieve:: Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Brandon Jennnings and Jodie Meeks

Pistons Trade: Brandon Jennings and Jolie Meeks
Pistons Receieve: Eric Gordon

Wow you really have a lot of moving parts to this trade. Why would we want to trade for Bledsoe when he's injured and out for the year though and he stays injured? I like what you're thinking but in a trade like that with so many players involved i have to think we could come away with players that aren't always injured.

Yeah, there really are quite a number of moving parts but that's to be expected. Three of the four teams would make it on the basis of changing the trajectory of their team: (1) The Knicks would be attempting to win-now(ish), (2) the Suns would go into full blown rebuild mode and (3) the Pelicans would forego a sizeable portion of their cap space next year to have a bird in hand. That kind of change demands a bigger trade.

And I get your reservations about Eric Bledsoe's health. It seems like every other season he misses a significant amount of time. Personally, I think he won't regain his old form following this most recent injury but then again, I'm no medical expert. I think even him at 80% of what he was, paired with Brandon Knight could make us competitive against any team. So we might as well roll the dice and hope he is healthy during the playoffs next season. Because the reality is that we won't have a comparably skilled player, at his price tag coming down the pipeline that can fit the triangle.