holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:The key for the Knicks will be to set up an alternative offensive strategy outside of Melo..It's the reason Woodson was successful here...The four other guys have to find a way to establish an offensive game plan then let Melo either work in or do his thing and play off that..With Woodson, Felton played pick and roll ball and the rest of the team fed off that...Chandler got alley hoops, the rest set up at the three point line for the kick out and Kidd made the extra pass...

So whether it's triangle or what, Fisher has to develop that offensive strategy then work Melo in spots...Worked like magic for Woodson...They tried it on a couple of sets last night and didn't look fluid...They need work...There is no offensive rhythm or anything where they come down court and say this is what we are going to do outside of Melo...They have to get there if they want to be a .500 team...

This team is MOSTLY comprised of young and unproven players so them looking a bit unsure and lost at times isn't coaching. It's what you get with a bunch of young players and when what should be your top players in Melo and Afflalo not fully healthy and carrying the action as intended.

Not to mention it's only 5 games against tough defensive playoff teams that make most teams look bad offensively!!! F'n PERSPECTIVE...

Thus the reason most coaches eases rookies into the line up..Enough f'n perspective for u?..

Why are u so rude dude?

My so called rudeness is due to your post. Talking about Woodson having offensive plans? Can't think of many worse examples of offensive creativity. The only thing worth talking about he stole from MDA.

On top of that you're talking about the rest of the guys having an offensive game plan outside of Melo? The game plan is the Triangle System which is time tested! They've already been given a game plan but it's gonna take time to perfect their execution as a unit and as individuals. They're being taught to think the game at a level far beyond anything Woodson tried to teach. When the team really needs Woody he had NOTHING! Vogel laughed at him!

They have a fully formed game plan but top defensive teams have been able to take our players out of what they want to do. They look to disrupt the timing of our motion and play the passing lanes. This will take more time for our players to react to what the D is doing and run counters to the D they face. It's a process. Our kids aren't Jedi yet. They have much to learn.

MDA was too dumb to understand he needed to turn Melo loose..What did Woodson do with the exact same players?.Results!!

Yeah Melo was being held back by MDA! SMDH! I can't converse with you if you're not going to stick to reality. Melo's struggles were self created. Melo has NEVER looked as impressive as he has running MDA's offense with the Olympic teams. He wasn't playing Melo ball then which only proves Melo can in FACT play a different way but he chooses not to. Literally everyone knows that Melo is best when he goes quick and in the flow of the offense rather than hold the ball and go ISO MELO.

Look I'm not gonna argue with you about offensive tactics since I actually have MDA's plays and Tex Winters book as well. I spend time learning basketball X's and O's. If I was just talking out of my ass about this stuff it would be one thing but I'm not.

It's gonna take time for our players to really master the offense and execute at high speed which is necessary to counter what defenses want to do. It has to become second nature and instinctive. The decision making and team chemistry will take time. This is a process. Let's leave Woody in the trash heap of BBall history. He's not one of the great minds in BBall history.

It's not ISO Melo, it's common sense..Look at Phil's ring count with Kobe and MJ taking 27/28 shots per in the playoffs..Wake up for once..Just this once...Look at results...Triangle hell, Kobe, MJ, Shaq and Gasol was posting guys up and taking them...U can read all the books you want..Phil will tell you 25 shots a game isn't basketball..Mike was taking 28 per..I don't see him giving back any rings because it wasn't basketball..

OK keep talking the nonsense you're spouting from a complete oversimplification of how those teams won. I'm done with you because you're speaking from ignorance of the subject rather than a full understanding of how great offensive BBall works. Go dig up Knicks title team tapes or just re-watch the Spurs and how they win for a clinic in real BBall. This is what Fish n Phil are trying to teach these players but it's rough in the beginning.

Yes ISO looks are built into the Triangle. That's not saying anything special! That's not what makes it work tho. You have to have proper execution of all the other aspects of the offense too. If it's just the ISO that won't be enough to win 2 or 3 Titles in a row. You always need great individual talent in order to win but that's not the complete picture. I suggest you at least have some respect for the fact that I'm read up on this subject and not just talking out of my ass. You don't have to agree with my take but it's based on knowledge of the subject.

You are talking out of you arse when you mention MDA..MJ was mostly ISO, So was Kobe..what that 11 rings??
C
U want respect and you show no one you show no one respect...

There's a difference between Selfish ISO Ball and getting ISO or One on One looks in the flow of an offense. Why are you getting stuck on MDA when he's not the subject of this argument? By talking about MJ and Kobe as ISO players you show your ignorance. Of course they would get a lot of freedom to score on one on one looks and pretty much any look. Great players can do that but winning as consistently and repeating as champs is about more than just one on one ability.

My point is really that our players are being taught how to play the game at a higher level. It takes time to teach and perfect. You're talking like this is late in the season rather than 5 games into the process of developing these players. You seem to think you have a strong argument but I'm sorry but you're not standing on solid ground. You're not even arguing the same point you started off with. You're on some tangent about MJ and Kobe now which on its face is ridiculous when you have to use all time great individual talents to try and prove some point. Where is your point outside of mentioning the Elite of Elite players in league history?

You show your ignorance when you ignore reality, facts and results...

You are making absolutely ZERO sense. It seems like you're trying to argue with me about a very narrow aspect of what i've been talking about. I'm talking about Phil and Fish teaching these players how to play Winning Team BBall. They already have an offensive strategy, but it's going to take time for the players to learn and perfect it. You are getting all bent out of shape about my mentioning MDA as if that's the key point i'm trying to make. MDA is a flawed coach but he's also a very influential offensive mind in NBA. He's had an impact on how teams play to this very day. You can't even begin to compare his impact with that of Woody.

MDA actually was pretty close to getting to the finals with his teams and sure he didn't make it but very few teams do. That doesn't invalidate his offensive schemes and philosophies which are league wide now. MDA was all about TEAM ball. The same can be said about Pop and PJax. So we are being led by a man who is all about Ball and Player movement and thinking the game at a high level. We have to allow TIME for our players to be developed in this style of play. It's not going to be perfect at game 5 of the NBA season.

I have to laugh at your take on Phil's Bulls and Lakers teams and your oversimplification that its the ISO's that made it all work. LOL. ISO or One on One looks are built into the Triangle offense. So yeah there's going to be a lot of ISO but not to the detriment of Team Ball. There was a lot of great ball and player movement going on that you're ignoring to try and make some lame point.

It takes more than offense to win Championships..It takes defense as well..Something MDA never preached...Phil and Pop are brilliant coaches that preach on all facets of basketball not just offense...MDA wasn't a coach, he was a guy with a system, there is a difference..MDA didn't understand he need to make adjustment based on talent..He couldn't play cal during time outs..He had tunnel vision...Woodson understood you had to make adjustment to your roster...I compare everyone who coaches the Knicks...You really can't thoroughly evaluate a coach until he coaches your team...A player as well...U have to see them every night to truly evaluate efforts..It's killed you every night Woodson won a game...U tried to rip Woodson to shreds after MDA left..U couldn't come to terms with the success he had with the same team...That's what happens with hero worship...U can't see the Forrest from the trees...

So it's ok to run ISO when you run the triangle but not ok when you run a pick and roll offense...Which one of your books you got that brilliant philosophy from??

Go ahead and try to make this about MDA and Me. Why are you trying to limit the conversation to those minor points??? We didn't start this argument off about MDA, but you have seized on him because it's an easy target. He never won a Title so you can pick at him, but he got a LOT closer than Woody ever did and getting to the WCF's twice is no small accomplishment given who he was going against in the Western Conference. Still I already said that MDA was a flawed coach but a brilliant offensive mind. Let's stop this nonsense side argument that you're bringing up only to try and have some point you can win. The overarching argument you've been making is wrong.

ISO is part of the Triangle PERIOD!!! ISO is not the main component of the Triangle tho. The original name of the Triangle is the Triple Post Offense!!! MDA's system is more of a pure ball and player movement system with pace and spacing. Doesn't matter the differences. What matters is the Efficiency of the offense and how it works in the playoffs against the best defenses. The thing about the Triangle is that it's more flexible since it has more elements. You can easily introduce PnR or anything you want in to the flow of the offense. The Triangle makes it easier to incorporate multiple bigs in your offense and defense like with Bynum and Gasol or Melo, RoLo and KP.

I avoid in dept conversations with you because you are narrow minded and belligerent to those who don't see your point of view...I'm sure I am not the first to say as much..After the 7th or 8th time of some one telling you this, one would think it would sink in, but no...So I stick to minor points..I don't want to waste my energy and effort on people who ignore facts and reality...Time is valuable...

Nix is supporting any "power it is" with the Knicks.
He supported every Coach, every GM, and every star/face player of Knicks team as long as I read his posts.
Nothing wrong about it.
Some people are going with the program no matter what.
One can always find explanation and excuses for anything.
The bottom line the organization failed miserably over and over again and no one was held accountable.
Because everybody at MSG run with the program...

He hated Woodson because Woodson's success was proof of MDA's failures...

I don't blindly support the Power that is!!! Of course initially i'm supportive when we hire guys like Lenny Wilkins, Isiah, Larry Brown, MDA or Phil because why would I be down on them coming into the job when they are accomplished basketball men replacing guys who failed? After that I watch what they do and say and make my opinions known like everyone else. I actually don't really give Woody a lot of credit for the success he had because it wasn't really about him. The proof of that is all over the place. We can rehash all that stuff but I won't because it doesn't matter anymore. If Woody was really a great coach he would still be here or at least get another head coach job. Nothing in his history really stands out IMO. Why are we even talking about him anymore? This is just a lame attempt to try and change the subject.

Holfresh, my thing with you is that you are arguing with me about the Knicks Offense when you don't really have a good grasp of what it is that Phil and Fish are teaching these players. Then you go off on a tangent about ISO Ball, which only exacerbates the problem with your position. You're not really proving your point about what the Knicks need to do offensively. Rather than just stopping to admit that i'm not saying anything that isn't backed up completely by every known metric, you want to keep talking about ISO Ball or MDA's flaws or me being belligerent with people. None of this strengthens your position.

holfresh wrote:The key for the Knicks will be to set up an alternative offensive strategy outside of Melo..It's the reason Woodson was successful here...The four other guys have to find a way to establish an offensive game plan then let Melo either work in or do his thing and play off that..With Woodson, Felton played pick and roll ball and the rest of the team fed off that...Chandler got alley hoops, the rest set up at the three point line for the kick out and Kidd made the extra pass...

So whether it's triangle or what, Fisher has to develop that offensive strategy then work Melo in spots...Worked like magic for Woodson...They tried it on a couple of sets last night and didn't look fluid...They need work...There is no offensive rhythm or anything where they come down court and say this is what we are going to do outside of Melo...They have to get there if they want to be a .500 team...

It's this post that caused all your problems. It IMO demonstrated that you really haven't been paying attention to what's going on with the team. I've posted all of the seasons of Phil's teams running the Triangle and the efficiency of the offenses. They are TEACHING our players to play the same kind of offense and your idea is to suggest they follow what Woodson did? Woody couldn't even maintain his success for more than a few months. This is what you're arguing with me about? So yeah I can't take what you're saying seriously.

Here is my point Nix, there is a new reality that you aren't willingly grasping...They aren't fully running the Triangle..They are trying to push the ball and take looks before defense are set, running a few pick and rolls here and there...Getting into the triangle enables teams to set up and play defense..But you aren't willing to embrace this subtle change in the offense because that would mean it didn't really work last year...You already have your talking points to the admitted failures of last year..So keep banging your head insisting these are triangle teaching moments...I'll run with the stuff that's actually on the ground...

Holfresh this just proves my point that you don't really know what the Triangle Offense is and are talking like most of the media which also don't realize what is and isn't part of the Triangle offense. Don't base what the offense is by what it looked like last year or early this year. These players have a long way to go in terms of really having it down. Pushing the ball and looking for easy offense was ALWAYS part of the Triangle.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

You are taking certain aspect of sound overall basketball and saying it's the triangle...No, it's good basketball...

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

So this portion wasn't part of Tex Winter's original philosophy but was learned and incorporated based of the realities on the ground which you claim was in bedded within the triangle...Wake up dude...

You're changing the subject again. This isn't what you were arguing!!! You were saying that Fish needed to come up with some other game plan for when Melo isn't in the game. Then you suggested what Woody did! Why the F would they need to do that when this is already a highly evolved system? Our players simply need time to master it and gel as a group.

The Triangle we run now is the EVOLVED version of the offense! You're conflating 2 different things. When I say pushing the ball was "Always" part of the offense nothing you pointed to refutes that point!!! The MJ stuff is more relevant to allowing a little freedom to an Elite player.

Plus I'm not talking about all the way back in the freaking Sixties!!! Let's not be silly about this. It's always been tweaked over the years. Tex himself tweaked the offense from its original form before he ever met Phil!!! Phil continued to tweak the offense with each different roster. So what's your point?

The core of the system hasn't really changed much since Phil left LA and allowing your star talent a bit of freedom to use their unique talents isn't a significant change to the system. We don't have MJ so how would that help us???

This still isn't supporting any of your original arguments. Pointing out one aspect isn't proving your overall point nor the multitude of points I've been making about the system we run. You don't really know the system but you're suggesting changes as if you did know the system. That's my issue with you.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The key for the Knicks will be to set up an alternative offensive strategy outside of Melo..It's the reason Woodson was successful here...The four other guys have to find a way to establish an offensive game plan then let Melo either work in or do his thing and play off that..With Woodson, Felton played pick and roll ball and the rest of the team fed off that...Chandler got alley hoops, the rest set up at the three point line for the kick out and Kidd made the extra pass...

So whether it's triangle or what, Fisher has to develop that offensive strategy then work Melo in spots...Worked like magic for Woodson...They tried it on a couple of sets last night and didn't look fluid...They need work...There is no offensive rhythm or anything where they come down court and say this is what we are going to do outside of Melo...They have to get there if they want to be a .500 team...

This team is MOSTLY comprised of young and unproven players so them looking a bit unsure and lost at times isn't coaching. It's what you get with a bunch of young players and when what should be your top players in Melo and Afflalo not fully healthy and carrying the action as intended.

Not to mention it's only 5 games against tough defensive playoff teams that make most teams look bad offensively!!! F'n PERSPECTIVE...

Thus the reason most coaches eases rookies into the line up..Enough f'n perspective for u?..

Why are u so rude dude?

My so called rudeness is due to your post. Talking about Woodson having offensive plans? Can't think of many worse examples of offensive creativity. The only thing worth talking about he stole from MDA.

On top of that you're talking about the rest of the guys having an offensive game plan outside of Melo? The game plan is the Triangle System which is time tested! They've already been given a game plan but it's gonna take time to perfect their execution as a unit and as individuals. They're being taught to think the game at a level far beyond anything Woodson tried to teach. When the team really needs Woody he had NOTHING! Vogel laughed at him!

They have a fully formed game plan but top defensive teams have been able to take our players out of what they want to do. They look to disrupt the timing of our motion and play the passing lanes. This will take more time for our players to react to what the D is doing and run counters to the D they face. It's a process. Our kids aren't Jedi yet. They have much to learn.

MDA was too dumb to understand he needed to turn Melo loose..What did Woodson do with the exact same players?.Results!!

Yeah Melo was being held back by MDA! SMDH! I can't converse with you if you're not going to stick to reality. Melo's struggles were self created. Melo has NEVER looked as impressive as he has running MDA's offense with the Olympic teams. He wasn't playing Melo ball then which only proves Melo can in FACT play a different way but he chooses not to. Literally everyone knows that Melo is best when he goes quick and in the flow of the offense rather than hold the ball and go ISO MELO.

Look I'm not gonna argue with you about offensive tactics since I actually have MDA's plays and Tex Winters book as well. I spend time learning basketball X's and O's. If I was just talking out of my ass about this stuff it would be one thing but I'm not.

It's gonna take time for our players to really master the offense and execute at high speed which is necessary to counter what defenses want to do. It has to become second nature and instinctive. The decision making and team chemistry will take time. This is a process. Let's leave Woody in the trash heap of BBall history. He's not one of the great minds in BBall history.

It's not ISO Melo, it's common sense..Look at Phil's ring count with Kobe and MJ taking 27/28 shots per in the playoffs..Wake up for once..Just this once...Look at results...Triangle hell, Kobe, MJ, Shaq and Gasol was posting guys up and taking them...U can read all the books you want..Phil will tell you 25 shots a game isn't basketball..Mike was taking 28 per..I don't see him giving back any rings because it wasn't basketball..

OK keep talking the nonsense you're spouting from a complete oversimplification of how those teams won. I'm done with you because you're speaking from ignorance of the subject rather than a full understanding of how great offensive BBall works. Go dig up Knicks title team tapes or just re-watch the Spurs and how they win for a clinic in real BBall. This is what Fish n Phil are trying to teach these players but it's rough in the beginning.

Yes ISO looks are built into the Triangle. That's not saying anything special! That's not what makes it work tho. You have to have proper execution of all the other aspects of the offense too. If it's just the ISO that won't be enough to win 2 or 3 Titles in a row. You always need great individual talent in order to win but that's not the complete picture. I suggest you at least have some respect for the fact that I'm read up on this subject and not just talking out of my ass. You don't have to agree with my take but it's based on knowledge of the subject.

You are talking out of you arse when you mention MDA..MJ was mostly ISO, So was Kobe..what that 11 rings??
C
U want respect and you show no one you show no one respect...

There's a difference between Selfish ISO Ball and getting ISO or One on One looks in the flow of an offense. Why are you getting stuck on MDA when he's not the subject of this argument? By talking about MJ and Kobe as ISO players you show your ignorance. Of course they would get a lot of freedom to score on one on one looks and pretty much any look. Great players can do that but winning as consistently and repeating as champs is about more than just one on one ability.

My point is really that our players are being taught how to play the game at a higher level. It takes time to teach and perfect. You're talking like this is late in the season rather than 5 games into the process of developing these players. You seem to think you have a strong argument but I'm sorry but you're not standing on solid ground. You're not even arguing the same point you started off with. You're on some tangent about MJ and Kobe now which on its face is ridiculous when you have to use all time great individual talents to try and prove some point. Where is your point outside of mentioning the Elite of Elite players in league history?

You show your ignorance when you ignore reality, facts and results...

You are making absolutely ZERO sense. It seems like you're trying to argue with me about a very narrow aspect of what i've been talking about. I'm talking about Phil and Fish teaching these players how to play Winning Team BBall. They already have an offensive strategy, but it's going to take time for the players to learn and perfect it. You are getting all bent out of shape about my mentioning MDA as if that's the key point i'm trying to make. MDA is a flawed coach but he's also a very influential offensive mind in NBA. He's had an impact on how teams play to this very day. You can't even begin to compare his impact with that of Woody.

MDA actually was pretty close to getting to the finals with his teams and sure he didn't make it but very few teams do. That doesn't invalidate his offensive schemes and philosophies which are league wide now. MDA was all about TEAM ball. The same can be said about Pop and PJax. So we are being led by a man who is all about Ball and Player movement and thinking the game at a high level. We have to allow TIME for our players to be developed in this style of play. It's not going to be perfect at game 5 of the NBA season.

I have to laugh at your take on Phil's Bulls and Lakers teams and your oversimplification that its the ISO's that made it all work. LOL. ISO or One on One looks are built into the Triangle offense. So yeah there's going to be a lot of ISO but not to the detriment of Team Ball. There was a lot of great ball and player movement going on that you're ignoring to try and make some lame point.

It takes more than offense to win Championships..It takes defense as well..Something MDA never preached...Phil and Pop are brilliant coaches that preach on all facets of basketball not just offense...MDA wasn't a coach, he was a guy with a system, there is a difference..MDA didn't understand he need to make adjustment based on talent..He couldn't play cal during time outs..He had tunnel vision...Woodson understood you had to make adjustment to your roster...I compare everyone who coaches the Knicks...You really can't thoroughly evaluate a coach until he coaches your team...A player as well...U have to see them every night to truly evaluate efforts..It's killed you every night Woodson won a game...U tried to rip Woodson to shreds after MDA left..U couldn't come to terms with the success he had with the same team...That's what happens with hero worship...U can't see the Forrest from the trees...

So it's ok to run ISO when you run the triangle but not ok when you run a pick and roll offense...Which one of your books you got that brilliant philosophy from??

Go ahead and try to make this about MDA and Me. Why are you trying to limit the conversation to those minor points??? We didn't start this argument off about MDA, but you have seized on him because it's an easy target. He never won a Title so you can pick at him, but he got a LOT closer than Woody ever did and getting to the WCF's twice is no small accomplishment given who he was going against in the Western Conference. Still I already said that MDA was a flawed coach but a brilliant offensive mind. Let's stop this nonsense side argument that you're bringing up only to try and have some point you can win. The overarching argument you've been making is wrong.

ISO is part of the Triangle PERIOD!!! ISO is not the main component of the Triangle tho. The original name of the Triangle is the Triple Post Offense!!! MDA's system is more of a pure ball and player movement system with pace and spacing. Doesn't matter the differences. What matters is the Efficiency of the offense and how it works in the playoffs against the best defenses. The thing about the Triangle is that it's more flexible since it has more elements. You can easily introduce PnR or anything you want in to the flow of the offense. The Triangle makes it easier to incorporate multiple bigs in your offense and defense like with Bynum and Gasol or Melo, RoLo and KP.

I avoid in dept conversations with you because you are narrow minded and belligerent to those who don't see your point of view...I'm sure I am not the first to say as much..After the 7th or 8th time of some one telling you this, one would think it would sink in, but no...So I stick to minor points..I don't want to waste my energy and effort on people who ignore facts and reality...Time is valuable...

Nix is supporting any "power it is" with the Knicks.
He supported every Coach, every GM, and every star/face player of Knicks team as long as I read his posts.
Nothing wrong about it.
Some people are going with the program no matter what.
One can always find explanation and excuses for anything.
The bottom line the organization failed miserably over and over again and no one was held accountable.
Because everybody at MSG run with the program...

He hated Woodson because Woodson's success was proof of MDA's failures...

I don't blindly support the Power that is!!! Of course initially i'm supportive when we hire guys like Lenny Wilkins, Isiah, Larry Brown, MDA or Phil because why would I be down on them coming into the job when they are accomplished basketball men replacing guys who failed? After that I watch what they do and say and make my opinions known like everyone else. I actually don't really give Woody a lot of credit for the success he had because it wasn't really about him. The proof of that is all over the place. We can rehash all that stuff but I won't because it doesn't matter anymore. If Woody was really a great coach he would still be here or at least get another head coach job. Nothing in his history really stands out IMO. Why are we even talking about him anymore? This is just a lame attempt to try and change the subject.

Holfresh, my thing with you is that you are arguing with me about the Knicks Offense when you don't really have a good grasp of what it is that Phil and Fish are teaching these players. Then you go off on a tangent about ISO Ball, which only exacerbates the problem with your position. You're not really proving your point about what the Knicks need to do offensively. Rather than just stopping to admit that i'm not saying anything that isn't backed up completely by every known metric, you want to keep talking about ISO Ball or MDA's flaws or me being belligerent with people. None of this strengthens your position.

holfresh wrote:The key for the Knicks will be to set up an alternative offensive strategy outside of Melo..It's the reason Woodson was successful here...The four other guys have to find a way to establish an offensive game plan then let Melo either work in or do his thing and play off that..With Woodson, Felton played pick and roll ball and the rest of the team fed off that...Chandler got alley hoops, the rest set up at the three point line for the kick out and Kidd made the extra pass...

So whether it's triangle or what, Fisher has to develop that offensive strategy then work Melo in spots...Worked like magic for Woodson...They tried it on a couple of sets last night and didn't look fluid...They need work...There is no offensive rhythm or anything where they come down court and say this is what we are going to do outside of Melo...They have to get there if they want to be a .500 team...

It's this post that caused all your problems. It IMO demonstrated that you really haven't been paying attention to what's going on with the team. I've posted all of the seasons of Phil's teams running the Triangle and the efficiency of the offenses. They are TEACHING our players to play the same kind of offense and your idea is to suggest they follow what Woodson did? Woody couldn't even maintain his success for more than a few months. This is what you're arguing with me about? So yeah I can't take what you're saying seriously.

Here is my point Nix, there is a new reality that you aren't willingly grasping...They aren't fully running the Triangle..They are trying to push the ball and take looks before defense are set, running a few pick and rolls here and there...Getting into the triangle enables teams to set up and play defense..But you aren't willing to embrace this subtle change in the offense because that would mean it didn't really work last year...You already have your talking points to the admitted failures of last year..So keep banging your head insisting these are triangle teaching moments...I'll run with the stuff that's actually on the ground...

Holfresh this just proves my point that you don't really know what the Triangle Offense is and are talking like most of the media which also don't realize what is and isn't part of the Triangle offense. Don't base what the offense is by what it looked like last year or early this year. These players have a long way to go in terms of really having it down. Pushing the ball and looking for easy offense was ALWAYS part of the Triangle.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.

1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.

This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.

You are taking certain aspect of sound overall basketball and saying it's the triangle...No, it's good basketball...

7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.

So this portion wasn't part of Tex Winter's original philosophy but was learned and incorporated based of the realities on the ground which you claim was in bedded within the triangle...Wake up dude...

You're changing the subject again. This isn't what you were arguing!!! You were saying that Fish needed to come up with some other game plan for when Melo isn't in the game. Then you suggested what Woody did! Why the F would they need to do that when this is already a highly evolved system? Our players simply need time to master it and gel as a group.

The Triangle we run now is the EVOLVED version of the offense! You're conflating 2 different things. When I say pushing the ball was "Always" part of the offense nothing you pointed to refutes that point!!! The MJ stuff is more relevant to allowing a little freedom to an Elite player.

Plus I'm not talking about all the way back in the freaking Sixties!!! Let's not be silly about this. It's always been tweaked over the years. Tex himself tweaked the offense from its original form before he ever met Phil!!! Phil continued to tweak the offense with each different roster. So what's your point?

The core of the system hasn't really changed much since Phil left LA and allowing your star talent a bit of freedom to use their unique talents isn't a significant change to the system. We don't have MJ so how would that help us???

This still isn't supporting any of your original arguments. Pointing out one aspect isn't proving your overall point nor the multitude of points I've been making about the system we run. You don't really know the system but you're suggesting changes as if you did know the system. That's my issue with you.

The key for the Knicks will be to set up an alternative offensive strategy outside of Melo..It's the reason Woodson was successful here...The four other guys have to find a way to establish an offensive game plan then let Melo either work in or do his thing and play off that..With Woodson, Felton played pick and roll ball and the rest of the team fed off that...Chandler got alley hoops, the rest set up at the three point line for the kick out and Kidd made the extra pass...

So whether it's triangle or what, Fisher has to develop that offensive strategy then work Melo in spots...Worked like magic for Woodson...They tried it on a couple of sets last night and didn't look fluid...They need work...There is no offensive rhythm or anything where they come down court and say this is what we are going to do outside of Melo...They have to get there if they want to be a .500 team...

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:My entire point was that they already have a very detailed game plan. They don't need to come up with any alternative or think like Woody. THEY RUN THE F'N TRIANGLE SYSTEM. They just have to perfect executing and thinking the game. The kids also have to develop their individual skills which will also make them more effective in the System.

The Triangle isn't about plays. They have to push the ball and look for early offense and they have reads, actions and automatics based on what the defense does. It's a complete system but it takes time to master as a group.

This is exactly why we bump heads..You talk about what should be happening or things you read in text books versus me who talk about what's really happening on the ground..Without the necessary adjustments, MJ ISO wouldn't be added to the system Phil was running in Chicago..

Currently, the frequency at which the team is looking for Melo is too high..They are always looking for Melo..They need to run the offense independent of ISO Melo which isn't happening enough..

what a clownish take on things. they are deferring to him? or maybe he is doing what he always does: holds on to the ball too long and allows the defense to reset, and he takes bad shots with a couple of pairs of hands in his face instead of working the ball and getting the ball back with a better shot. it worked for pierce under under doc rivers but you already giving up.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:My entire point was that they already have a very detailed game plan. They don't need to come up with any alternative or think like Woody. THEY RUN THE F'N TRIANGLE SYSTEM. They just have to perfect executing and thinking the game. The kids also have to develop their individual skills which will also make them more effective in the System.

The Triangle isn't about plays. They have to push the ball and look for early offense and they have reads, actions and automatics based on what the defense does. It's a complete system but it takes time to master as a group.

This is exactly why we bump heads..You talk about what should be happening or things you read in text books versus me who talk about what's really happening on the ground..Without the necessary adjustments, MJ ISO wouldn't be added to the system Phil was running in Chicago..

Currently, the frequency at which the team is looking for Melo is too high..They are always looking for Melo..They need to run the offense independent of ISO Melo which isn't happening enough..

what a clownish take on things. they are deferring to him? or maybe he is doing what he always does: holds on to the ball too long and allows the defense to reset, and he takes bad shots with a couple of pairs of hands in his face instead of working the ball and getting the ball back with a better shot. it worked for pierce under under doc rivers but you already giving up.

I would say the talent level of the guys at the end of Pierce passes and Melo's passes are a bit different..Just look at the game tonight..Melo making some nice passes and we are quickly 10 points in the hole..

yeah almost EVERYONE wants fisher to remove calderon and vujacic from the starting lineup. what else ya got?

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:My entire point was that they already have a very detailed game plan. They don't need to come up with any alternative or think like Woody. THEY RUN THE F'N TRIANGLE SYSTEM. They just have to perfect executing and thinking the game. The kids also have to develop their individual skills which will also make them more effective in the System.

The Triangle isn't about plays. They have to push the ball and look for early offense and they have reads, actions and automatics based on what the defense does. It's a complete system but it takes time to master as a group.

This is exactly why we bump heads..You talk about what should be happening or things you read in text books versus me who talk about what's really happening on the ground..Without the necessary adjustments, MJ ISO wouldn't be added to the system Phil was running in Chicago..

Currently, the frequency at which the team is looking for Melo is too high..They are always looking for Melo..They need to run the offense independent of ISO Melo which isn't happening enough..

It's not about me just talking about what I read in texts books. How dumb is that statement? How else are you gonna learn something complex without studying it? How do you think I actually KNOW WTF I'm talking about when it comes to the offense? You don't know what the offense is but are commenting out of ignorance. You're looking at the results but not really understanding the full picture of what is supposed to be happening.

For one thing these players are not fully versed in the offense. They're making TONS of mistakes and poor reads, poor spacing, poor fundamentals etc. It's gonna take more than 6 games to master the offense. The biggest issue right now is the poor play of Jose n Sasha! Replace their minutes In the SL with Afflalo (when healthy) and Gallo and things will look much different.