knickscity wrote:Everything that is illegal still has a way to be obtained. If a person wants it, they will get it. Lessening guns only prevents law abiders from protecting themselves and the country and their rights to bear (which means carry), not the killers. There are illegal drugs and myriads of laws to sanction violators....how is that working? The only one's afraid to obtain and use are law abiding citizens. Yet anyone can get illegal drugs.

Guns would be do different. Restricting guns wont limit potential criminals. The laws are already there. Guns do not kill people, people kill people. If you want to kill you will find a way.

There are countless examples of mass killing not using guns most notably 9/11. Boxcutters, American educations and Airplanes were the tools used to kill.

Now for the lamers, the militia is the entire population of people, that was the original intent, and here are some examples.....

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…” (LIGHT HORSE HARRY) LEE, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788)

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

I rest my case.

Well Said.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people that have guns are very careful and responsible. They are not the ones committing these crimes.

Criminals and those who want to affect harm will always find a way because they are not right in the head. Take away guns and the sick people will learn how to make bombs and use other means. They will still kill.

Our problem is not guns, its education and the lack of respect for our fellow human and for human life. Rather than taking responsibility we are quick to blame everyone else and worse yet, society allows AND ENCOURAGES you to blame someone else.

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

knickscity wrote:Everything that is illegal still has a way to be obtained. If a person wants it, they will get it. Lessening guns only prevents law abiders from protecting themselves and the country and their rights to bear (which means carry), not the killers. There are illegal drugs and myriads of laws to sanction violators....how is that working? The only one's afraid to obtain and use are law abiding citizens. Yet anyone can get illegal drugs.

Guns would be do different. Restricting guns wont limit potential criminals. The laws are already there. Guns do not kill people, people kill people. If you want to kill you will find a way.

There are countless examples of mass killing not using guns most notably 9/11. Boxcutters, American educations and Airplanes were the tools used to kill.

Now for the lamers, the militia is the entire population of people, that was the original intent, and here are some examples.....

Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…” (LIGHT HORSE HARRY) LEE, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788)

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

I rest my case.

Well Said.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people that have guns are very careful and responsible. They are not the ones committing these crimes.

Criminals and those who want to affect harm will always find a way because they are not right in the head. Take away guns and the sick people will learn how to make bombs and use other means. They will still kill.

Our problem is not guns, its education and the lack of respect for our fellow human and for human life. Rather than taking responsibility we are quick to blame everyone else and worse yet, society allows AND ENCOURAGES you to blame someone else.

Yea complete disregard for life. Guns isn't the problem. As others have pointed out mental illness is more of a core problem but in pails in comparison to some of the other underlying issues. These shootings are horrific and definitely carried out by the mentally ill who should not have access to weapons but what about all the violent crime you see on a daily basis? Maybe if there wasn't as much corruption at the state level there would be less senseless killing. Less gang violence etc. If men and women were truly treated as equals in court there would be less domestic violence which sometimes leads to murder.

If people did parenting the old fashion way. You know like when our parents grew up safe. Not needing to lock their doors. When it was safe for kids to walk home from school and even hitch hike. Nowadays parents are afraid to discipline their kids and I'm not talking about imposing physical harm either. Kids are used to getting their way all the time because parents don't want to hurt their feelings by being firm and telling them no. It would also help if parents set a better example for their kids instead of breaking the law themselves.

It leads to a vicious cycle of a me first society. How self absorbed can you possibly be to think its ok to take the lives of inocent people because you didnt get what you wanted in life. You didn't learn at an early age that nothing comes easy and you must earn everything in life. You are capable of making changes to better yourself. You can control your destiny. It starts at home. For whatever reason we have progressed into a me first society and forgotten the important things in life like values. We should probably study and try mimicking other more respectful countries & cultures

http://www.politico.com/...

The irony ... is that Tombstone lawmakers in the 1880s did more to combat gun violence than the Arizona government does today.
For all the talk of the “Wild West,” the policymakers of 1880 Tombstone—and many other Western towns—were ardent supporters of gun control. When people now compare things to the “shootout at the OK Corral,” they mean vigilante violence by gunfire. But this is exactly what the Tombstone town council had been trying to avoid.
In late 1880, as regional violence ratcheted up, Tombstone strengthened its existing ban on concealed weapons to outlaw the carrying of any deadly weapons within the town limits. The Earps (who were Republicans) and Doc Holliday maintained that they were acting as law officers—not citizen vigilantes—when they shot their opponents. That is to say, they were sworn officers whose jobs included enforcement of Tombstone’s gun laws.

Adam Winkler, author of Gunfight: The Battle to Bear Arms in America, concurs:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Yet this is all based on a widely shared misunderstanding of the Wild West. Frontier towns -- places like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge -- actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.
In fact, many of those same cities have far less burdensome gun control today then they did back in the 1800s.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

A check? That's right. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you'd check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.

My family was rocked a few years ago when a domestic restraining order failed to remove guns from the ex husband. He locked and loaded:

Waited for his exwife, her date, Her best friend, best friends daughter, and his own son. Once home he rings the bell, and comes in. He shoots the her bestfriend and kills her, then he shoots his ex-wife in the knee, shoulders and hands. Then he hunts down the date (My brother in laws brother) who was not really romantically heavy but more of a friend, he was hiding the kids in a closet. The ex-husband shoots into the closet kills him, his son. The date shielded the girl from harm. he was trying to protect the. When asked the "WTF" he testified "I killed my son to punish my wife, and I shot her so she cannot work. She can't do anything but think about the pain I caused her and she is to blame why our son is dead!!!

Ok, real life. Make sure the laws are actually executed and just make some laws tigher. Might put a dent in the numbers, but isn't it worth it. This is my neice and Nefews uncle!!! Im god father to one, he was to the other. Knew this guy since he was 16 years old. He died at age 42.

My son at age 16 goes to see the movie biopic about Biggie Smalls 6 years ago and in the lobby 10 feet away a kid got shot and my boy sees the whole thing. Ok, not a direct link but my son had some problems with it for while. Trouble sleeping, anxiety and he would jump at shots in a movie.

The other just happened a few weeks ago. My daughters friend's boyfriend in D.C. was heading at 6pm to get on a train and took a stray bullet in the head. Random. Shot from a car. No reason, he was a grad student with an amazing future in front of him. They were in love. This 22 year old girl and the boy were going to get engaged. It was not war, it was just him going to meet with friends. They were in love. His family is devastated. she is devastated.

The sick phuch in Roanake VA who shot the reporter on the air. The Camaraman's wife was the producer in the studio and watched it live. What are we doing to people. Its not like people are killing to survive, there is some sense to that, but that shooter could not get along with people.

The Sick Phuch in Charleston who sat and prayed in the the church before going off on a racist killing spree.

Perhaps many of you have stories. Family, friends, cousins, etc. All live's matter. Time to be fed up and demand we be free from the terror of irresponsible gun laws. Stupid ass law but the guns are not going away, the best we can do in this generation is demand more accountability and some form of control. No mass shootings have been thwarted by someone with another gun. More children die from guns than police in the line of duty. Sure its mostly stupid parents, but its still a problem.

Obama is right, we are becoming desensitized. I don't argue this anymore with gun lovers. I just politely explain my family been touched by an awful murder and seen the aftermath of it up close and personal.

Im a white guy in his early 50's living in a midsized city in a white collar job and this shyts is all around me now!!! Growing up in Brooklyn and Queens it was in the papers, but not in my family. Don't even argue with me about some jusfification for automatic weapons or "Killers will kill anyway!!" Of course they will, but there are sensible gun laws that should be in place and enforced.

knickscity wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

izybx wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knickscity wrote:I care about deaths...period. Seems folks only care about guns, when guns havent killed a sole on their own, but rather improper and illegal use.

Since we're posting facts.....

here's some more...facts.....

Now, a new study published in the Journal of Patient Safety reports between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death. These harms may include patients getting the wrong medicine, surgical errors, or infections resulting when safety procedures are not followed. That makes medical malpractice the third leading cause of deaths in the U.S., following heart disease and cancer.

http://www.massachusettsinjurylawyerblog.com/2013/10/medical-mistakes-boston-injury-lawyers.html

This right wing horse**** is so tiring. Errors and accidental deaths will happen no matter what. The idea that the fact that they happen should be used as reasoning to continue to make guns available for people who INTENTIONALLY go out a shoot a bunch of other people is just beyond retarded. No you don't ban cars, because there are no reported incidents of people driving cars into malls with the intent of killing other people. But you and the NRA may not be smart enough to tell the difference.

Those facts really make you mad huh

No facts don't make me mad. People intentionally avoiding the issue and throwing out numbers to confuse the subject makes me mad. The issue with guns is they are in the hands of people intending to kill a lot of people quickly. The idea that you can do that with a car is laughable. So the "facts" have no relevance. But the right wing brings them up so they can deflect the main discussion. The number of death by automobiles and cancer have as much relevance to the discussion on gun control as the sun signs of the victims.

Facts do seem to upset you. if you're worried about people dying aim your venom at the top causes and work your way down.

But of course, deaths isnt your issue. Do you seriously believe people dont use cars to kill people?

here's what happens when you ban guns....they use anything they can find, like a car....

The van of a man who drove into a crowd is being removed from a street in Graz, southern Austria, Saturday, June 20, 2015. According to officials three people were killed in the incident and 34 injured.

VIENNA — A man apparently distraught over personal issues drove his SUV into a crowd in Austria's second largest city Saturday, killing a 4-year old and two adults, officials said.

Police in the city of Graz said 34 others were injured, with six victims, including two children, in serious condition. They said there were no indications of a terrorist attack, and the suspect was apparently distressed over personal problems when he targeted his victims.

The governor of Styria province, Hermann Schuetzenhoefer, described the suspect as a 26-year-old Austrian truck driver who was "mentally disoriented" and acting alone. He was arrested shortly after the incident.

Police commander Josef Klamminger told reporters that the man had been under a restraining order keeping him from the home of his wife and two children since a domestic violence report against him was filed last month. He was being psychologically evaluated after his arrest.

State broadcaster ORF cited unnamed witnesses as saying the man apparently drove his vehicle at high speed into the crowd at random, sending several people crashing into the windshield and flying over the vehicle.

http://www.startribune.com/man-runs-car-into-crowd-killing-2-injuring-many-in-austria/308639401/

When "facts" are provided with the intent of changing the subject, deflecting blame to say nothing of confusing the issues then yes they do upset me. That was easy.
Your argument is the same as saying drugs don't kill, its just that people who sell them and abuse them are killing others and themselves. So let's go ahead and make drugs legal. Unless you and the idiotic right wing can come up with a way to ban "mental illness" from happening to people banning guns is a solid alternate option. Get with the program. Civilians do not need guns, there is a ton of data (already shown here) that countries with stricter gun laws don't have as many gun related deaths. All this other garbage you posted is just noise.

meloshouldgo wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/boy-11-reportedly-shoots-dead-211512315.html

Let's ban 11 year old boys(mental illness for sure!!) before we ban guns, now THAT makes sense!! I keep telling you the right wing and the NRA has this thing all figured out.

An 11-year-old eastern Tennessee boy was in custody for murder on Monday for shooting and killing an 8-year-old neighbor girl with a shotgun because she would not show him her puppies, authorities said.

The unidentified boy was talking to three girls who were outside the window of his mobile home on Saturday evening and asked one of them if he could see her two new puppies, but the girl refused, according to Jefferson County Sheriff G.W. "Bud" McCoig.

The boy retrieved his father's 12-gauge shotgun, shot the girl in the chest from the window, and then threw the weapon outside by the girl's body, McCoig said.

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:
I don't think you can prevent a killer from killing..But you can limit the options he has..The US is currently trying to limit nation states from acquiring nuclear weapons..The idea is the more states that have a nuclear weapon the likelihood some one will use them..Or the more the likihood it will fall into criminal hands..I see guns the same way..

Funny thing is, the same guys leading the charge against gun control are the same guys who thinks its a bad idea for Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon and don't want to see the correlation...Isn't it the same thing conceptually..Doesn't the pro nuclear weapon nations and pro gun people say it's to protect my family or nation and its acts as a deterrent..Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people, right?

You're already admitting you cant prevent the killing. Thats the issue, his methods are cop out excuses, he'll find other methods.. I've said more than once I have no issue with gun reforms and such. What I am totally against is taking rights away from law abiding citizens because those individuals arent the primary offenders in these gun related incidents.

This is like punishing all the children in the house because you, the parent, cant figure out who spilled the milk on the kitchen floor. The issue is why these folks feel the need to kill.....address that first.

And no I dont think banning nuclear weapons are the same as gun control. There is no way to responsibly use nuclear weapons, and your typical handgun which is the primary weapon of choice has no mass destruction effect. The main reason the US is a key component in pushing this is because they know other countries can wipe their ass clean off the globe with push of a button, yet they still spend billions in research.....go figure.

Your "typical handgun" is not so typical anymore, considering magazine size and quick reloading capability. Compared to fists, a club, or a knife, a modern handgun IS a proportionate version of a WMD, and think of what an assault rifle can do in a crowded space. Guns magnify the power of any individual proficient with them, just like nuclear weapons can do for a nation. Guns can make a "crazy" person into a deadly killer with their capabilities.

The Iran nuclear issue is about some nations being unable to TRUST Iranians with that kind of power, just like we would not trust a mentally ill person to be able to possess the power a gun can give them in certain settings. Funny, though, you don't see the world putting pressure on N. Korea to give up their nuclear arsenal...probably because we know that they are crazy enough to use what they already have. No problem like that when we unjustifiably invaded Iraq, since we probably knew that they did not have anything serious enough to bother us in their arsenal, although the case for war was all about WMDs.

Lets face it, though, the extreme right sees guns as protection against certain minorities, and their own federal or state government. Has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, which was from another time...a time without a standing army. No foreign nation is going to invade the U.S. in any traditional way.

Made my comment about the 2nd Amendment earlier. Why not look at it as originally intended. All gun owners should participate in militia training and be certified physically and mentally in some form, so we could have a "well regulated militia."

Stricter gun laws and traceable components and bullets, mandatory gun storage and gun lock requirements, and holding adults responsible if their negligence leads to deaths because their kids got their hands on a gun and hurt someone, and tougher regulations on anyone who would sell a gun, be it dealer or individual. If holfresh legally buys a gun and sells or gives it to knickscity, that handover must be legally documented prior to the handover. If gun owners move, that must be noted in some kind of national database of gun owners.

The only reason not to do any of this is that the wingnuts are afraid that the big bad government is going to track them and swoop in some day to take their guns away for some reason or another, and unfortunately, this kind of person is the backbone of the NRA.

Nothing will happen, of course, and now we can wait for the next mass shooting.