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The Knicks Decider
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newyorknewyork
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9/30/2015  12:05 PM
Phil was hired because Dolan viewed him as a great basketball mind and brought championship pedigree.

Woodson and the whole coaching staff were simply casualties of not being experts in the triangle offense which Phil wants to run.

Winning/playoffs doesn't come down to Carmelo Anthony he is going to bring what he brings which is pretty damn good. But winning/playoffs in the NBA come down to guard play. Our guard play over the last 2 yrs has been horrible, so we have struggled. When Smith was 6th man of the yr and Kidd/Felton were making positive impacts we won 54 games. Every team in the playoffs made it due to good to great guard play. Us making the playoffs or how many games we win comes down to the effectiveness of Affalo, Calderon, Grant, Galloway, Sasha. Its not possible to have any type of success otherwise.

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nixluva
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9/30/2015  12:30 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Phil was hired because Dolan viewed him as a great basketball mind and brought championship pedigree.

Woodson and the whole coaching staff were simply casualties of not being experts in the triangle offense which Phil wants to run.

Winning/playoffs doesn't come down to Carmelo Anthony he is going to bring what he brings which is pretty damn good. But winning/playoffs in the NBA come down to guard play. Our guard play over the last 2 yrs has been horrible, so we have struggled. When Smith was 6th man of the yr and Kidd/Felton were making positive impacts we won 54 games. Every team in the playoffs made it due to good to great guard play. Us making the playoffs or how many games we win comes down to the effectiveness of Affalo, Calderon, Grant, Galloway, Sasha. Its not possible to have any type of success otherwise.


After this team establishing a better defensive presence I would agree that it's imperative that we get good guard play! It's also one of the reasons I believe this team will be better than advertised. A healthy Jose plus Afflalo, Grant, Gallo and Sasha should be pretty good. Not great but good enough to win games. It's going a bit under the radar but this guard group should be a massive improvement in terms of BB IQ and skills.

Taking these things into account, along with the improvement from our bigs, it's hard to see how this team can't be competitive. I think these guards will be able to play well with the bigs we have now. This group of bigs can post as well as score in the mid range. These bigs are physical and should set great screens for these guards to play off of.

blkexec
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9/30/2015  1:53 PM
nixluva wrote:Only 2 times in Melo's career has he been on a team that was under .500 and that was the last 2 most dysfunctional years in NY. Last year doesn't even make sense to talk about, but 2013-14 they got to 37 wins despite all the dysfunction. I don't believe we can expect that level of dysfunction this year.

I created this thread to talk about the possible improvement on Defense, which if that does happen, could make this team a winner this year. Just using the facts about Melo's career and the defensive efficiency of his teams, relative to their record, you can see that it's highly possible for this team to be a winner this season.

Melo's team records and Defensive Ranking over the years.


Season Lg Team W L W/L% Playoffs Coaches
Def Rank - 28th 2014-15 NBA New York Knicks 17 65 .207 D. Fisher (17-65)
Def Rank - 24th 2013-14 NBA New York Knicks 37 45 .451 M. Woodson (37-45)
Def Rank - 18th 2012-13 NBA New York Knicks* 54 28 .659 Lost E. Conf. Semis M. Woodson (54-28)
Def Rank - 5th 2011-12 NBA New York Knicks* 36 30 .545 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D (18-24), M. Woodson (18-6)
Def Rank - 22nd 2010-11 NBA New York Knicks* 42 40 .512 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D'Antoni (42-40)
Def Rank - 16th 2009-10 NBA Denver Nuggets* 53 29 .646 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (53-29)
Def Rank - 8th 2008-09 NBA Denver Nuggets* 54 28 .659 Lost W. Conf. Finals G. Karl (54-28)
Def Rank - 10th 2007-08 NBA Denver Nuggets* 50 32 .610 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (50-32)
Def Rank - 11th 2006-07 NBA Denver Nuggets* 45 37 .549 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (45-37)
Def Rank - 13th 2005-06 NBA Denver Nuggets* 44 38 .537 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (44-38)
Def Rank - 8th 2004-05 NBA Denver Nuggets* 49 33 .598 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (13-15), M. Cooper (4-10), G. Karl (32-8)
Def Rank - 13th 2003-04 NBA Denver Nuggets* 43 39 .524 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (43-39)

Enough with the jaded viewpoints!!! At some point we have to base our analysis on the specifics of this roster and recent historical facts. No one is suggesting this tea is a juggernaut or anything. It is possible for this team to play well enough to be in the playoff hunt. IMO this roster is actually pretty similar to the recent Knicks Playoff teams.

The difference could be in the hustle and effort level of the players on this team, which the media and doubting fans never talk about. We have a few high motor players and effort guys on the roster now. That can be a difference maker this season compared to the last 2 seasons. There's a bit more nastiness on the roster as well. Guys with more fight to them as opposed to the Mr. Softee players we had last year. We've got good BB IQ, length, Girth, Athletic Ability and Skill on this roster.

Nix....I'm starting to realize there's only a few long term knick fans, that hate their team more than non knick fans. Hustle and effort wins over talent. Just look at Ben Wallace and Detroit as a classic example. The other problem I have with all this talk about talent. There are talented players that go undrafted all the time. This notion that we don't have any talent is bullshet. The NBA is full of talent.....What we need in NY is exactly what Phil brought in. Hustle and defensive effort players....The problem is knick fans are spoiled by all the years of adding old HOF'ers and ex star players. We finally build the team the right way, and you still have complaints.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
arkrud
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9/30/2015  2:11 PM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:Only 2 times in Melo's career has he been on a team that was under .500 and that was the last 2 most dysfunctional years in NY. Last year doesn't even make sense to talk about, but 2013-14 they got to 37 wins despite all the dysfunction. I don't believe we can expect that level of dysfunction this year.

I created this thread to talk about the possible improvement on Defense, which if that does happen, could make this team a winner this year. Just using the facts about Melo's career and the defensive efficiency of his teams, relative to their record, you can see that it's highly possible for this team to be a winner this season.

Melo's team records and Defensive Ranking over the years.


Season Lg Team W L W/L% Playoffs Coaches
Def Rank - 28th 2014-15 NBA New York Knicks 17 65 .207 D. Fisher (17-65)
Def Rank - 24th 2013-14 NBA New York Knicks 37 45 .451 M. Woodson (37-45)
Def Rank - 18th 2012-13 NBA New York Knicks* 54 28 .659 Lost E. Conf. Semis M. Woodson (54-28)
Def Rank - 5th 2011-12 NBA New York Knicks* 36 30 .545 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D (18-24), M. Woodson (18-6)
Def Rank - 22nd 2010-11 NBA New York Knicks* 42 40 .512 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D'Antoni (42-40)
Def Rank - 16th 2009-10 NBA Denver Nuggets* 53 29 .646 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (53-29)
Def Rank - 8th 2008-09 NBA Denver Nuggets* 54 28 .659 Lost W. Conf. Finals G. Karl (54-28)
Def Rank - 10th 2007-08 NBA Denver Nuggets* 50 32 .610 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (50-32)
Def Rank - 11th 2006-07 NBA Denver Nuggets* 45 37 .549 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (45-37)
Def Rank - 13th 2005-06 NBA Denver Nuggets* 44 38 .537 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (44-38)
Def Rank - 8th 2004-05 NBA Denver Nuggets* 49 33 .598 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (13-15), M. Cooper (4-10), G. Karl (32-8)
Def Rank - 13th 2003-04 NBA Denver Nuggets* 43 39 .524 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (43-39)

Enough with the jaded viewpoints!!! At some point we have to base our analysis on the specifics of this roster and recent historical facts. No one is suggesting this tea is a juggernaut or anything. It is possible for this team to play well enough to be in the playoff hunt. IMO this roster is actually pretty similar to the recent Knicks Playoff teams.

The difference could be in the hustle and effort level of the players on this team, which the media and doubting fans never talk about. We have a few high motor players and effort guys on the roster now. That can be a difference maker this season compared to the last 2 seasons. There's a bit more nastiness on the roster as well. Guys with more fight to them as opposed to the Mr. Softee players we had last year. We've got good BB IQ, length, Girth, Athletic Ability and Skill on this roster.

Nix....I'm starting to realize there's only a few long term knick fans, that hate their team more than non knick fans. Hustle and effort wins over talent. Just look at Ben Wallace and Detroit as a classic example. The other problem I have with all this talk about talent. There are talented players that go undrafted all the time. This notion that we don't have any talent is bullshet. The NBA is full of talent.....What we need in NY is exactly what Phil brought in. Hustle and defensive effort players....The problem is knick fans are spoiled by all the years of adding old HOF'ers and ex star players. We finally build the team the right way, and you still have complaints.

+1
Time for complains is over.
And this is a good thing.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
nixluva
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9/30/2015  3:00 PM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:Only 2 times in Melo's career has he been on a team that was under .500 and that was the last 2 most dysfunctional years in NY. Last year doesn't even make sense to talk about, but 2013-14 they got to 37 wins despite all the dysfunction. I don't believe we can expect that level of dysfunction this year.

I created this thread to talk about the possible improvement on Defense, which if that does happen, could make this team a winner this year. Just using the facts about Melo's career and the defensive efficiency of his teams, relative to their record, you can see that it's highly possible for this team to be a winner this season.

Melo's team records and Defensive Ranking over the years.


Season Lg Team W L W/L% Playoffs Coaches
Def Rank - 28th 2014-15 NBA New York Knicks 17 65 .207 D. Fisher (17-65)
Def Rank - 24th 2013-14 NBA New York Knicks 37 45 .451 M. Woodson (37-45)
Def Rank - 18th 2012-13 NBA New York Knicks* 54 28 .659 Lost E. Conf. Semis M. Woodson (54-28)
Def Rank - 5th 2011-12 NBA New York Knicks* 36 30 .545 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D (18-24), M. Woodson (18-6)
Def Rank - 22nd 2010-11 NBA New York Knicks* 42 40 .512 Lost E. Conf. 1st Rnd. M. D'Antoni (42-40)
Def Rank - 16th 2009-10 NBA Denver Nuggets* 53 29 .646 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (53-29)
Def Rank - 8th 2008-09 NBA Denver Nuggets* 54 28 .659 Lost W. Conf. Finals G. Karl (54-28)
Def Rank - 10th 2007-08 NBA Denver Nuggets* 50 32 .610 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (50-32)
Def Rank - 11th 2006-07 NBA Denver Nuggets* 45 37 .549 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (45-37)
Def Rank - 13th 2005-06 NBA Denver Nuggets* 44 38 .537 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. G. Karl (44-38)
Def Rank - 8th 2004-05 NBA Denver Nuggets* 49 33 .598 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (13-15), M. Cooper (4-10), G. Karl (32-8)
Def Rank - 13th 2003-04 NBA Denver Nuggets* 43 39 .524 Lost W. Conf. 1st Rnd. J. Bzdelik (43-39)

Enough with the jaded viewpoints!!! At some point we have to base our analysis on the specifics of this roster and recent historical facts. No one is suggesting this tea is a juggernaut or anything. It is possible for this team to play well enough to be in the playoff hunt. IMO this roster is actually pretty similar to the recent Knicks Playoff teams.

The difference could be in the hustle and effort level of the players on this team, which the media and doubting fans never talk about. We have a few high motor players and effort guys on the roster now. That can be a difference maker this season compared to the last 2 seasons. There's a bit more nastiness on the roster as well. Guys with more fight to them as opposed to the Mr. Softee players we had last year. We've got good BB IQ, length, Girth, Athletic Ability and Skill on this roster.

Nix....I'm starting to realize there's only a few long term knick fans, that hate their team more than non knick fans. Hustle and effort wins over talent. Just look at Ben Wallace and Detroit as a classic example. The other problem I have with all this talk about talent. There are talented players that go undrafted all the time. This notion that we don't have any talent is bullshet. The NBA is full of talent.....What we need in NY is exactly what Phil brought in. Hustle and defensive effort players....The problem is knick fans are spoiled by all the years of adding old HOF'ers and ex star players. We finally build the team the right way, and you still have complaints.

Yeah I recognize that this isn't a sexy roster when you look at the names, but fans should not be caught up in that game. The Media are filled with a lot of guys that really don't know this team and only look for names they know and don't dig deeper into how the team is actually constructed. Quite simply the players Phil has added have more HEART than the guys we got rid of IMO. The more guys a team has, who don't have to be pushed to give max effort, the better they'll play. That's how you build a team that plays above their talent level.

RoLo comes out and says that he wants to be a Defensive Leader for this team. RoLo's energy will be matched by other guys like O'Quinn, Jerian, Gallo KP, Thanasis, Seraphin, Lance and Lou etc. It's really a major shift in terms of the type of guys we have. When you look at the guys like Wesley Saunders, Darion Atkins, Dajaun Summers and Travis Trice you see the same kind of Passion and Heart from those players. Fans should be paying attention to those kinds of things.

foosballnick
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9/30/2015  5:27 PM
holfresh wrote:
foosballnick wrote:It's about expectations. The only time it all comes together and everyone is happy is if things go right and the team performs well beyond expectations.

Some fans want instant gratification and need something tangible, like a shiny new toy to keep them satisfied. If things go wrong, they can point fingers and start the narrative again.

Some fans are more patient and like the analysis and to read between the lines at what is being built. If things go wrong, they bide their time by proposing changes or tweaks to the model.

Some fans are optimistic and relish the enjoyment of a positive experience. If things go wrong they focus on the positives.

Some fans are fixated on the negative and look to how things need to improve. If things go wrong they feel validated.


I fall into the patient category and am willing to see how it all starts to work. If it means a 30 win season with moments of great progress and future hope and roster maneuverability.....I can live with it for this coming year. The expectation is not to be world beaters but for the team to take steps forward this year and to continue to show improvement every year.

So being in the patient mode, what are your expectations over what time period..At what point do u expect tangible results?..I ask because I get in the habit of trying to forecast outcome based on my own evaluation of the team..For example last year, I didn't think we had a playoff team when Phil said we did..I thought we would struggle because Fisher was new to the job and you don't generally win with young players..I think we are in same boat this year given our makeup...So is there a timeline or is it a feel you get from team play??

My expectations -

This year - Barring major injuries - Anything above 30 Wins will be a positive. Below 30 and I will be disappointed. Looking also for a Top 15 Defensive Team. Looking for hope/progress from KP and Grant. Looking for improvement from either Galloway, Early or both. Looking for Melo to be healthy and perform at least in the vicinity of 2 years ago. Looking for Melo to accept the Triangle - or if he visibly does not buy in....looking for him to be traded for future pieces. Looking for Calderon to return to form and play steady ball and hopefully get traded. Looking for Lopez to play solid defense and grow into a team leader. Not expecting much of Williams - so if he does anything that will be a positive.

Next Year - Playoffs or I will be disappointed. I anticipate there will be further off-season additions and subtractions from the current roster.

foosballnick
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9/30/2015  5:32 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
foosballnick wrote:It's about expectations. The only time it all comes together and everyone is happy is if things go right and the team performs well beyond expectations.

Some fans want instant gratification and need something tangible, like a shiny new toy to keep them satisfied. If things go wrong, they can point fingers and start the narrative again.

Some fans are more patient and like the analysis and to read between the lines at what is being built. If things go wrong, they bide their time by proposing changes or tweaks to the model.

Some fans are optimistic and relish the enjoyment of a positive experience. If things go wrong they focus on the positives.

Some fans are fixated on the negative and look to how things need to improve. If things go wrong they feel validated.


I fall into the patient category and am willing to see how it all starts to work. If it means a 30 win season with moments of great progress and future hope and roster maneuverability.....I can live with it for this coming year. The expectation is not to be world beaters but for the team to take steps forward this year and to continue to show improvement every year.

patience is losing in the 1st round in game 6, patience is not being a lottery team with no lottery pick


I'm not the type who looks backwards and laments. The pick was poorly traded by a different management team......it is not wise to compound past mistakes just to make the playoffs because you don't have a pick. I believe that building a solid core/base, continuing to collect assets (even 2nd Rounders) and maintaining cap flexibility is the way to go. In other words, for me it's not worth worrying about a pick the Knicks no longer have.

nixluva
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9/30/2015  6:46 PM
A nice article on RoLo:

Knicks like what they see in newcomer Robin Lopez

SEPTEMBER 30, 2015, 5:42 PM LAST UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2015, 5:42 PM
BY STEVE POPPER
STAFF WRITER | THE RECORD

WEST POINT, N.Y. - It is just the second day of training camp, the time when players are just getting to know each other, coaches are working to teach the new system, and teams take their first tentative steps.

And that just made what Knicks coach Derek Fisher has seen from Robin Lopez seem odder.

“That basically all tables, stanchions and what appear to be immovable objects should get out of the way when he gets (angry),” Fisher said. “If a guy scores on him or something doesn’t go well, he tends to make sure that everybody knows that he’s not happy.

“Just having a guy with that type of mindset protecting the basket for you, we hope, can be a good thing," Fisher added. "But it’s still a team game, more defensively than offensively. So we can’t just rely on the big hair and the loud voice to save the day. We have to be a good defensive team.”

Lopez, with his wild hair and deep voice seems more like Simpson’s character Sideshow Bob than one of the comic book characters he and his brother, Brook, favor. Soft-spoken, the tantrums seem out of character for Lopez.

“I have to start off by saying it was much worse when I was younger,” Lopez said. “I have to pick and choose my battles now. I like to stay emotionally invested in the game. If you’re emotionally invested I don’t think you have to worry about things like playing hard, staying committed, staying behind your teammates.

“(I) never really (was like this) outside of the court. My brother and I got in our share of fights. I think they were always at our most epic when we were on the basketball court. We were totally in the game, totally intent on besting the other. I think that’s kind of where that desire to win comes from.”

“I hated him as an opponent,” Carmelo Anthony said. “He’s a big guy. He’s a load down there. He’s one of the best big guys in the NBA as far as not committing fouls. He’s a hell of a pick-and-roll guy. He sets crazy screens. I used to think it was dirty, but now I think they’re clean.”

Anthony insisted Tuesday that despite low expectations for the team outside the organization, he still has hope that they can compete for a title. “People might not believe that, but we’re definitely competing for that,” he said. “That’s always going to be the goal. Whether we get there or not depends on us and what we’re doing.”

While the Knicks struck out in their search for a star in free agency, Lopez was the biggest ticket item that they did land - handing him a four-year, $54 million deal. His numbers aren’t overwhelming - averaging 9.6 points and 6.7 rebounds last season. But his offensive efficiency has been solid in his limited opportunities and his defense is what he has made his reputation on.

“Robin is a great passer and facilitator, so we’re kind of looking forward to being able to utilize him in those ways,” Fisher said. “He’s a great offensive rebounder and we want guys to feel confident about who they are. So we’re not going to tell them to hold back. At the same time we’re not going to tell them to force trying to do more. Just be who he is.”

TPercy
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9/30/2015  7:21 PM
I wouldn't fuss over the negativity on Rolo, we could have gotten Deandre Jordan or Greg Monroe and people would still be bitching about our bigs.
The Future is Bright!
dk7th
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9/30/2015  11:40 PM
i'm glad to hear fisher saying that lopez is a "great" passer and facilitator. that's going to be a key skill if the team is going to exceed expectations.
knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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10/1/2015  1:34 AM
dk7th wrote:i'm glad to hear fisher saying that lopez is a "great" passer and facilitator. that's going to be a key skill if the team is going to exceed expectations.

RoLo is going to be able to show more of his game in this system. He's a smart guy and should be able to move the ball out of the Post position in the Triangle. I'm not worried about RoLo's offense. I'm excited about his defense and his impact on the rest of the team because of his passion to play defense. All the other bigs will follow his lead, which is what you want from your starter. O'Quinn is also a very good passer. They should make for some good Triangle action this year.

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10/1/2015  5:39 AM
Gallo, Grant, Lopez, OQuinn, Afflalo, are defensive minded ballers. Seraphim Williams and Melo not as much nor is Calderon obviously. Along with KP, an unknown defensive presence in games, all are rotation players and we can break into top 12-15 defensively as a team if they play Team D and if Kris Williams and Seraphim play both ends.
nixluva
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10/1/2015  10:36 AM
Paris907 wrote:Gallo, Grant, Lopez, OQuinn, Afflalo, are defensive minded ballers. Seraphim Williams and Melo not as much nor is Calderon obviously. Along with KP, an unknown defensive presence in games, all are rotation players and we can break into top 12-15 defensively as a team if they play Team D and if Kris Williams and Seraphim play both ends.

I'm not even worried about KP, DWill or Seraphin playing D. Not when the focus of the team is on defense. We have enough guys who are really dedicated to playing D to make the less devoted guys step up their effort and focus on that end. It really is that simple. It's hard to be the only guy not doing his job in a group that is bought in on D. You stand out too much and will likely not stay in the rotation. That's why I'm not worried about it. There is too much competition for playing time now. If you don't step up you will be on the bench cuz there are hungry guys on this bench who will play D.

In Training Camp you know the intensity is up since you have defensive guys who aren't even slated to make the team like Darion Atkins and guys like Lou Amundson who may not even make the rotation.

Then you have your starting Center setting the tone for the whole team:

Lopez allowed opponents to shoot just 48 percent at the rim last season, ranking ahead of elite rim defenders such as Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Tyson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan.

Carmelo Anthony said the Knicks' early plan on defense is designed, in part, around Lopez.

"It will be a lot of playing around him and him being the anchor down there for us," Anthony said, without revealing any specifics.

The Knicks' star seems happy that Lopez is playing on his side this season.

"I hated him as an opponent. He's a big guy. He's a load down there," Anthony said. "... He's a hell of a pick-and-roll guy. He sets crazy screens. I used to think it was dirty, but now I think they're clean."

In addition to defending the rim, Lopez is looking forward to playing in the Knicks' triangle offense.

"I do think there are a lot of facets of the triangle that I can take advantage of," he said on Wednesday. "I think it does a good job of spacing the floor for one. It does a great job of getting people into the right spots. I feel it really plays to my strengths. I stay around the elbow, around the blocks. I'm comfortable swinging the ball around the top of the key."

He’s also comfortable letting his frustration out on the basket stanchion, which is a positive development for a team looking for some intensity.

“I like to stay emotionally invested in the game,” Lopez said. “If you’re emotionally invested I don’t think you have to worry about things like playing hard, staying committed, staying behind your teammates.”

The Knicks Decider

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