mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

Better stats don't make a better player. Charles Smith put up great stats on the Clippers back in the day. I already pointed out why I have this opinion.

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:@joec32033..Mudiay isn't a scorer, he is a pass first PG..He and Melo couldn't be more different..Melo has changed his game to adapt to the changing offenses..That's a good thing not a bad thing..Melo has had his best years as a Knicks..Phil is trying to rebrand the Knicks much like Lyden did..Nice guys with good personalities and "from good families"..

Mudiay averaged 15.5 shots per game. More than Russell. He averaged more 3 pta than Russell. He also averaged 6.8 assists to Russell's 6.3. People are calling Russell a combo guard with similar stats. You keep comparing him to John Wall who is a scoring PG.

Where are u getting those stats from Summer League??..Stop it..Watch the kid play and tell me what you see..He was probably the best player on the court so he may take more shots than he wants to..If you put good players around him then he takes less..But watch the games to evaluate him..He is nothing like Melo..Of course he is like John Wall, Chris Paul type..He is a ball dominant PG which Phil doesn't want..

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

Better stats don't make a better player. Charles Smith put up great stats on the Clippers back in the day. I already pointed out why I have this opinion.

Better stats DO make you a better player.

How was he better? More diverse? More dynamic? Better dunks?

Wall is the more athletic, big guard type, super fast, slasher type.

Paul is the more prototypical smaller pass first, take over when the game is on the line type.

We won't know yet what Mudiay will become yet, but physically size wise probably closer towards Wall.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

The biggest improvement is probably the decrease in turnovers here in NY. He had a 3.1 to 3.1 assist:to ratio in Denver and it's 3.1 to 2.5 here. He's scoring 3 more points per 100 possessions (110 vs. 107) and almost all of that is attributable to a decrease in turnovers (2.2 less per 100 possessions). His TS% is .007 better here. So that's a slight factor too.
If only he could get the assists up!

His WS48 is 160 vs 125!

His rebounds per 36 is 6.9 vs 6.3

His 3 point % is 38 vs 31.

all this with a far worse team.

Bonn1997 wrote: Porzingis looked OK but not great.

Not to be a homer but this is from a knickerblogger post:

I’m going to talk about Porzingis briefly. Clearly he was the best player on the team, and has given the Knicks their first exciting prospect since Gallo. He had 18.4 pts/36 on 59.1% ts%, with only 2.2 to/36, toss in 3.1 blk/36. Yes the rebounding is a concern, but everything else is there.

http://knickerblogger.net/kncisk-summer-league-stats-the-good-the-not-so-bad-and-the-ugly/ Rest of article there....

Anyway, those are pretty nice numbers for a rookie who has a lot of physical development yet to come. I agree he didn't "look great", but his performance gave a pretty good glimpse into what he may become. Yes, it is a crapshoot but at this point Id rather have The Zinger.

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

The biggest improvement is probably the decrease in turnovers here in NY. He had a 3.1 to 3.1 assist:to ratio in Denver and it's 3.1 to 2.5 here. He's scoring 3 more points per 100 possessions (110 vs. 107) and almost all of that is attributable to a decrease in turnovers (2.2 less per 100 possessions). His TS% is .007 better here. So that's a slight factor too.
If only he could get the assists up!

His WS48 is 160 vs 125!

His rebounds per 36 is 6.9 vs 6.3

His 3 point % is 38 vs 31.

all this with a far worse team.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

The biggest improvement is probably the decrease in turnovers here in NY. He had a 3.1 to 3.1 assist:to ratio in Denver and it's 3.1 to 2.5 here. He's scoring 3 more points per 100 possessions (110 vs. 107) and almost all of that is attributable to a decrease in turnovers (2.2 less per 100 possessions). His TS% is .007 better here. So that's a slight factor too.
If only he could get the assists up!

His WS48 is 160 vs 125!

His rebounds per 36 is 6.9 vs 6.3

His 3 point % is 38 vs 31.

all this with a far worse team.

That doesn't really contradict anything I said. The 3s went up but the damage from 2s and FTs went down. So the TS% went up only by .007. Most of that .035 WS% increase is due to the decreased turnovers. You're right about the rebounding going up but (for reasons I'm not sure of) his defensive rating stayed the same (107). The area by far with the most meaningful change is turnovers.

Not contradicting what you said. Trying to understand why the huge diff in WS48. I can't believe that this is primarily because of turnovers.

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

The biggest improvement is probably the decrease in turnovers here in NY. He had a 3.1 to 3.1 assist:to ratio in Denver and it's 3.1 to 2.5 here. He's scoring 3 more points per 100 possessions (110 vs. 107) and almost all of that is attributable to a decrease in turnovers (2.2 less per 100 possessions). His TS% is .007 better here. So that's a slight factor too.
If only he could get the assists up!

His WS48 is 160 vs 125!

His rebounds per 36 is 6.9 vs 6.3

His 3 point % is 38 vs 31.

all this with a far worse team.

That doesn't really contradict anything I said. The 3s went up but the damage from 2s and FTs went down. So the TS% went up only by .007. Most of that .035 WS% increase is due to the decreased turnovers. You're right about the rebounding going up but (for reasons I'm not sure of) his defensive rating stayed the same (107). The area by far with the most meaningful change is turnovers.

Not contradicting what you said. Trying to understand why the huge diff in WS48. I can't believe that this is primarily because of turnovers.

I'll leave the analytics to Bonn, but better numbers do not mean better player. They mean they played a bigger role on a given team. Once again, going old school, Charles Smith averaged better numbers on the Clippers than guys like Oakley and Mason did on the Knicks. Did not make him a better player.

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I thought the goal was to get people here

1)want to be here
2)fit the system
3)selfless
4)high iQ
5)can handle ny and the media

I think someone said it earlier, drafting Mudiay would have been a sixers move, drafting talent, and not need and upside.

Where is it written or how do you know that Mudiay doesn't have upside?

Im confused. Aren't you saying KP has no upside?

If you can find that quote, I'll appreciate it because I never said that..

Ok

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:KP + Grant > Mudiay

He is how u know that's BS...Denver will be Mudiay's team day one..KP and Grant won't start..

You also wrote

"This is not a casino where you are rewarded for the more risk you take..Phil taking a big risk doesn't mean the ceiling is that much higher.."

holfresh wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Mudaiy played well at times and others not so much. There were plenty of guys ahead of him--but looking through numbers--hes got a lot of talent AND he has a LONG way to go.

He showed greta promise physically but lets take a look at some of the numbers vs his original scouting report.

Reports cant shoot well--shooting % 38 3 pt% .14
Turnover prone 4 game s AVERAGE was the highest in SL at 5 a game
Not a great FT shooter 50%

So when you walk out of SL the reason why he was bypassed by some just like Winslow did not change. He has some cracks that will need to be addressed and they wont be fixed for some time. That doesnt mean he cant be a great player one day--but reinforces why we may have bypassed him.

I like our chances in what will develop into a 7-3 skill center Take away the 3 point shot and he made more than 60% of his attempts played good D and showed overall quality skills.

The three point shot is why you drafted him..He isn't going to turn into a low post player..Dude is pulling down like 3 boards a game..U think that's going to change against real men?

That's 3 in 4 pages of one thread.

So again..Show me where I said he had no upside...The fact that you take a bigger risk and is rewarded on a predetermined multiple on that order works in casinos, horse races, etc..Doesn't work in real life..So when Phil says we took a big risk which means there will be an even bigger reward, it's BS..Those are facts...Please note that does not mean this kid doesn't have upside..Just have a problem with the premise of Phil's argument..Its possible but not a given as in predetermine valued outcomes.

Some think he should be a low post presence..I argue that we drafted him for his perimeter play..His interior game is lacking.. Why try to get him to do something he can't do..Jaba Chamberlain was a lights out reliever..Someone thought he would be a great starter..Posada was against him starting..He was never the same pitcher again after trying to turn him into a starter...I also said he pulls down 3 boards per in 20 min..That won't change gainst Real NBA players...Nothing to do with upside..

Saying that Mudiay will start day 1 and Prozinger won't is me illustrating the point that Mudiay is ahead of him in development..Nothing to do with upside..

I had a nice long, well thought out post just about 75% finished when my browser refreshed itself so I am gonna give the cliff notes version.

-Mudiay has talent, but he wouldn't have been able to show it until Carmelo is gone.

-Someone said it earlier - Phil has "profiles" of players he wants. Currently Mudiay duplicates Carmelo's, henchmen why the previous point. By this I mean a volume scorer, volume shooter who needs the ball to be effective.

-Personally, Carmelo has been misused since he got here and he sucks because of it. Whether through his decision or the team he has turned into a volume jumpshooter. In Denver he was the BEST post player in the league. Hands down. A freakin' bull on the block monster who gave even Lebron fits on offense and defense. Now he is too easy to defend. As his game has offensive game has turned one dimensional.

-As they may be running a modified version of the triangle, the PG'S main responsibility on offense was to basically get the ball past mid court and give it to the primary wing scorer (Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, after Jordan). The primary wing needs to know how to pass and initiate an offense. Carmelo doesn't seem to know how to do this.

-In relation to Porzingis, you gotta let this kid develop. Mentally, the back court is hardest position in the NBA to grasp, specifically the 1. Physically, the backcourt is much harder to adjust to for a young player, you need to really take that into consideration.

Overall, Melo has been a much better player in NY than he was in Denver.

I don't know why people keep saying/thinking that he was a better player in Denver.

His offensive game was much more diverse, and his great offensive game motivated his defense. Yes his rebounding was a bit lower there but he was playing next to Camby for a while if I believe and some other rebounder at primarily SF, where his rebounding rate although lower than now was close to tops among SF's. Those teams were tailor made around him like those 76er teams were tailed made around AI.

Yes. He had a better team around him. That made him look even better.

In NY, he was surrounded by crap and produced at a much higher level. That makes it even a bigger disparity.

What did Melo do better in Denver?

The biggest improvement is probably the decrease in turnovers here in NY. He had a 3.1 to 3.1 assist:to ratio in Denver and it's 3.1 to 2.5 here. He's scoring 3 more points per 100 possessions (110 vs. 107) and almost all of that is attributable to a decrease in turnovers (2.2 less per 100 possessions). His TS% is .007 better here. So that's a slight factor too.
If only he could get the assists up!

His WS48 is 160 vs 125!

His rebounds per 36 is 6.9 vs 6.3

His 3 point % is 38 vs 31.

all this with a far worse team.

That doesn't really contradict anything I said. The 3s went up but the damage from 2s and FTs went down. So the TS% went up only by .007. Most of that .035 WS% increase is due to the decreased turnovers. You're right about the rebounding going up but (for reasons I'm not sure of) his defensive rating stayed the same (107). The area by far with the most meaningful change is turnovers.

Not contradicting what you said. Trying to understand why the huge diff in WS48. I can't believe that this is primarily because of turnovers.

I'll leave the analytics to Bonn, but better numbers do not mean better player. They mean they played a bigger role on a given team. Once again, going old school, Charles Smith averaged better numbers on the Clippers than guys like Oakley and Mason did on the Knicks. Did not make him a better player.

bigger role, more points, more anything ... don't necessarily mean anything.

A player can play 10 minutes per game and have a WS48 through the roof.

I am talking about efficiency and contribution based on WS48, not compilations.

john wall: .65:1 this is okay not great for a point guard
chris paul .51:1 which is elite
steve nash .40:1 which is extraordinary
marbury .70:1 borderline point guard
francis .98:1 not a point guard
iverson 1:.98 not a point guard
rajon rondo .50:1 which is elite
westbrook .80:1 not a point guard
kyrie .90:1 not a point guard
felton .67:1 which is <meh>
lawson .64:1 again nothing special, barely adequate