CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Have to disagree about Battier and Allen versus JR and Shump. Battier and Allen are guys known for having tremendous character, have experienced tremendous team success and were known for coming up big in big moments. They reached or surpassed their potential as players and teammates. Shump and JR are not fulfilling their projected potential (actually Shump is the exact player that was supposed to be a second round pick coming out of college before individual workouts) and are role players that don't come up big in big moments.

They got the Cavs to the Finals minus two all stars...It's unrealistic to think that LeBron, Moz, JR and Shump can beat the Warriors..

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil had 7 Knick front office types out to see KP in Vegas...I am so scared...

because they are doing their due diligence?

Nothing I have seen so far has made me think Phil has done his due diligence...

and what have you seen?

Same things you have seen that doesn't inspire confidence..

What are you talking about? Dude you couldn't be more wrong on this. You're going to have to make some kind of case for how you know Phil and his staff haven't done their due diligence! You sound like you just have a bias and not basing your opinion on any facts or evidence.

He traded for Calderon then tried to trade him months later??..What changed after he professed Caldron fits what he was trying to do..He traded JR and Shump to an Eastern Conference team strengthening the Cavs..We may face them if we do get our act toghther..I don't expect you to see things as they are..Everything comes up smelling like roses unless your name is Woodson..

Your looking for results where many of us are looking for a change in thinking. Your bashing him for an insignficant trade. Yes, that trade was garbage and it was never going to yield anyting in return but garbage. There was a price to dump Felton and get a 2nd round pick. WE also go to look at Larkin.

PHil has cleaned house. You want results? This cleansing is more important than our 54 win season which was build on the backs of old men.

Change of thinking is deep...I'm not that kind of believer...One has to make it about the coach and the team..Develop a process that survives you..The coach needs to be empowered and be allowed to lead the team in his vision..A wise GM and all time coaching great can offer guidance and fine tune the process...The players needs to see that leadership in a coaching staff that has skin in the game and the process...That's not happening here..Right now it's about the GM and his system..So I'll take a few wins for now before it all goes to hell...

All GM's need a bit of luck in addition to great planning. So far Phil hasn't been on the job long enough to really get much done and he's certainly not had any good luck. That doesn't mean that he is somehow lost and without a clue to how to structure this team. We've got to see what he does but so far he's not showing signs that he's not fully engaged in this process.

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Have to disagree about Battier and Allen versus JR and Shump. Battier and Allen are guys known for having tremendous character, have experienced tremendous team success and were known for coming up big in big moments. They reached or surpassed their potential as players and teammates. Shump and JR are not fulfilling their projected potential (actually Shump is the exact player that was supposed to be a second round pick coming out of college before individual workouts) and are role players that don't come up big in big moments.

They got the Cavs to the Finals minus two all stars...It's unrealistic to think that LeBron, Moz, JR and Shump can beat the Warriors..

I didn't know Moz was a part of the conversation. Also, Kyrie got to the finals but was out after game one. He looked good in game one.

I guarantee you the the Cavs front office isn't saying "why did we trade for these guys, they didn't win it all for us."

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Have to disagree about Battier and Allen versus JR and Shump. Battier and Allen are guys known for having tremendous character, have experienced tremendous team success and were known for coming up big in big moments. They reached or surpassed their potential as players and teammates. Shump and JR are not fulfilling their projected potential (actually Shump is the exact player that was supposed to be a second round pick coming out of college before individual workouts) and are role players that don't come up big in big moments.

They got the Cavs to the Finals minus two all stars...It's unrealistic to think that LeBron, Moz, JR and Shump can beat the Warriors..

I didn't know Moz was a part of the conversation. Also, Kyrie got to the finals but was out after game one. He looked good in game one.

I guarantee you the the Cavs front office isn't saying "why did we trade for these guys, they didn't win it all for us."

No but the guys brought up by Walt did win things for their teams and they played big in big moments. I do wonder if JR opts out if they resign him. Also, not sure what they pay Shump if they bring him back.

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil had 7 Knick front office types out to see KP in Vegas...I am so scared...

because they are doing their due diligence?

Nothing I have seen so far has made me think Phil has done his due diligence...

and what have you seen?

Same things you have seen that doesn't inspire confidence..

What are you talking about? Dude you couldn't be more wrong on this. You're going to have to make some kind of case for how you know Phil and his staff haven't done their due diligence! You sound like you just have a bias and not basing your opinion on any facts or evidence.

He traded for Calderon then tried to trade him months later??..What changed after he professed Caldron fits what he was trying to do..He traded JR and Shump to an Eastern Conference team strengthening the Cavs..We may face them if we do get our act toghther..I don't expect you to see things as they are..Everything comes up smelling like roses unless your name is Woodson..

As this Finals demonstrated, Smith and Shumpert are expendable talents. They can swing a game or two but will never mean much toward winning a series. And once they are re-signed to exorbitant contracts, I'm sure they'll be considered net negative assets in no time. We sent the Cavs a Trojan Horse and I for one, think it is the only good deal Phil has made.

You are wrong dude..U completely misunderstand what they are as players..They are role players..They are the supporting cast that allow the stars to step up and win games for you...They may win one or two games for u...That is exactly what you want...Miami didn't have a supporting cast the first year with Bron..That's what guys like Shane Battier and Ray Allen does for u..Help and support..If you are looking for them to win a series for u then u don't understand what you are looking at...

P.S..And you are right, they might be expendable...But it will cost us a fortune to replace..

Role players are by definition, expendable. It is exactly why Trevor Ariza could've easily been replaced by Ron Artest on the 2009 Lakers for a fraction of the price and the team not skip a beat. It is exactly why the Rockets in 2014 were able to replace Chandler Parsons with Ariza and improve. Shumpert and Smith are in the same vein as the players I mentioned, although I'd argue that they are of a lower tier. At the end of the day, the Cavs can readily replace them and win without them.

I think you are making it a bit too trivial in terms of how expendable these types player are...Rockets improved because of Harden's overall improvement, yet they still didn't have the pieces to make it to the Finals..LA Clippers are looking for some of those easily replaceable players to get to the next level..They just traded for Stevenson...Washington was not able to replace what Ariza gave them and they took a step back..OKC could use a guy..Grizzlies could use a guy or two...

The Cavs were a .500 team before the gift..Cavs are screwed, they have to pay LeBron Tristan, and Kyre next year on new deals..They have no space to replace JR and Shump if they walk...They have to pay JR and/or Shump...If you are over the cap, like most contenders are, they aren't as easily replaceable...And let's see the Knicks replace JR and Shump on the cheap..Lou Williams who shot 19% from the three last playoffs will cost at least 9m per when the bidding starts...

Harden may have improved but one man does not make a team, especially in the Western Conference. Even if you control for Harden's improvement, that team was still one of the better ones and featured the same players save for Parsons. I'm also not sure what the Clippers have do with this conversation but I could name dozens of other instances where players were swapped out on winning teams that made little to no difference in the win-loss column. I think it's a pretty well known thing that role players don't make that much of a difference, game to game.

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil had 7 Knick front office types out to see KP in Vegas...I am so scared...

because they are doing their due diligence?

Nothing I have seen so far has made me think Phil has done his due diligence...

and what have you seen?

Same things you have seen that doesn't inspire confidence..

What are you talking about? Dude you couldn't be more wrong on this. You're going to have to make some kind of case for how you know Phil and his staff haven't done their due diligence! You sound like you just have a bias and not basing your opinion on any facts or evidence.

He traded for Calderon then tried to trade him months later??..What changed after he professed Caldron fits what he was trying to do..He traded JR and Shump to an Eastern Conference team strengthening the Cavs..We may face them if we do get our act toghther..I don't expect you to see things as they are..Everything comes up smelling like roses unless your name is Woodson..

As this Finals demonstrated, Smith and Shumpert are expendable talents. They can swing a game or two but will never mean much toward winning a series. And once they are re-signed to exorbitant contracts, I'm sure they'll be considered net negative assets in no time. We sent the Cavs a Trojan Horse and I for one, think it is the only good deal Phil has made.

You are wrong dude..U completely misunderstand what they are as players..They are role players..They are the supporting cast that allow the stars to step up and win games for you...They may win one or two games for u...That is exactly what you want...Miami didn't have a supporting cast the first year with Bron..That's what guys like Shane Battier and Ray Allen does for u..Help and support..If you are looking for them to win a series for u then u don't understand what you are looking at...

P.S..And you are right, they might be expendable...But it will cost us a fortune to replace..

Role players are by definition, expendable. It is exactly why Trevor Ariza could've easily been replaced by Ron Artest on the 2009 Lakers for a fraction of the price and the team not skip a beat. It is exactly why the Rockets in 2014 were able to replace Chandler Parsons with Ariza and improve. Shumpert and Smith are in the same vein as the players I mentioned, although I'd argue that they are of a lower tier. At the end of the day, the Cavs can readily replace them and win without them.

I think you are making it a bit too trivial in terms of how expendable these types player are...Rockets improved because of Harden's overall improvement, yet they still didn't have the pieces to make it to the Finals..LA Clippers are looking for some of those easily replaceable players to get to the next level..They just traded for Stevenson...Washington was not able to replace what Ariza gave them and they took a step back..OKC could use a guy..Grizzlies could use a guy or two...

The Cavs were a .500 team before the gift..Cavs are screwed, they have to pay LeBron Tristan, and Kyre next year on new deals..They have no space to replace JR and Shump if they walk...They have to pay JR and/or Shump...If you are over the cap, like most contenders are, they aren't as easily replaceable...And let's see the Knicks replace JR and Shump on the cheap..Lou Williams who shot 19% from the three last playoffs will cost at least 9m per when the bidding starts...

Harden may have improved but one man does not make a team, especially in the Western Conference. Even if you control for Harden's improvement, that team was still one of the better ones and featured the same players save for Parsons. I'm also not sure what the Clippers have do with this conversation but I could name dozens of other instances where players were swapped out on winning teams that made little to no difference in the win-loss column. I think it's a pretty well known thing that role players don't make that much of a difference, game to game.

in your eyes, what do you think he'll put up numbers wise his first year? second year? third year? What do you see as his progression? What kind of numbers are we talking about for this kid?

Just curious, not meant to be a trolling question. I'm curious as to what you guys think his numbers will look like first three years of his career, say.

crzymdups wrote:Question to Porzingis fans:

in your eyes, what do you think he'll put up numbers wise his first year? second year? third year? What do you see as his progression? What kind of numbers are we talking about for this kid?

Just curious, not meant to be a trolling question. I'm curious as to what you guys think his numbers will look like first three years of his career, say.

Just because a player is picked in the lottery does not mean he belonged there. Ibaka and Batum, if there was a redraft with today's knowledge, would have been late lottery picks, at least. Gallinari, by the way, was legit lottery pick, but for his injuries.

Look at the domestic busts, just from 2008: Beasley, Mayo, Augustin, Bayless, Randolph, Alexander, etc, and Minny wrote the book on busts under Kahn- all of them college players.

Too many variables. How does his weight gain go? What kind of system is he in? Is the team doing a real rebuild with young guys, or are they a team like the Knicks? Does he play with a ball dominant star player, or a more team oriented franchise? What is his team actually expecting from him?

Not sure the Knicks are the best fit for gradual growth.

Big difference in the numbers you see in Europe and those you see in China. There is also a reason why certain teams appreciate European players, who usually come in with a team first mentality.

His shooting ability alone is going to make him valuable for some teams, even at a young age. By the end of the year I could easily see him averaging 10-14 on a team like GS, which would give him open looks and the green light to shoot.

Do you think he would be a better shooting big man on the pick and pops we did last year than what we had? Jason Smith had his moments, but was hot and cold. Amundson actually showed a jumper, but is very undependable. Forget about Aldrich's J. Porzingis could easily do What Smith did, and he has done pick and rolls before. He's also a better finisher than our other bigs. I actually think Kaminsky is the best Triangle big man in this draft, but that's another thing.

One concern I have with him is his passing, but up to this point he's been a stretch 4, and hasn't played a lot in the post, but I interviewed him as a GM it is something I would ask him about. I'd like to see his passing numbers when he played in their junior leagues, because he was a guard at one point. His rebounding will improve with his weight, and you want to see a consistent game in the post at some point.

Time will tell.

CrushAlot wrote:The Magic seem quite fond of Kristaps. If he is there at 4 the Knicks should take him and explore swapping and picking up another pick or two like Philly did with Payton.

The Magic are high on Porzingus and Mario.....But they would love to get Super Mario.......They say hes a chris thompson clone? Would be a nice SG to have at 6'8, who can also play SF.

http://truebluenation.com/forum/index.php?/topic/254459-mario-hezonja/