WaltLongmire wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:This is starting to sound like the "case for Stein" thread.

I would take Porzingis over Stein in a second, and OK4 over Stein in an nano-second.

I could make a case against myself for taking OK4 over a guy I really like, Porzingis because of the Triangle- can't do that with Stein. Rumor has it that Hinkie likes Porzingis over OK4...Have hear nothing significant about Stein cracking the top 3.

Everyone always talking about the Triangle-the 3 best players at the top of the draft for the Triangle, in no particular order, are Russell, Towns, and OK4.

OK4 has elite post-up skills with a feel for the game in the paint that cannot be taught. He's a good passer from down there and is a combo of Duncan and Hakeem when he wants to score. For me his issue is physical maturity and losing some weight. Foul shooting is an issue, and you want a little more range on his J, but he already uses the glass better than any big in the NBA except Duncan, and he is only 19, and he clearly has baby fat left on his body.

Stein has a man's body, already, but as has been well documented, he never demonstrated the offensive ability that would force Calipari to increase his role in the offense. Good defender, but probably not as good as some of you think, and as we all know, he was a ghost in the biggest game of his career.

Interesting to know that in his freshman year, his team did not even make the tournament. In his Soph. year his team reached the finals without him, and in the biggest game would play that year, because he was injured the next day- he had another invisible man game against Wichita State. Everyone know what happened to KU this year, and who beat them.

In his 3 years at KU, therefore, KU's best finish in the tournament was when he was injured.

Some folks yell about workout warriors who show stuff in a video 1/0- Porzingis was criticized for this, by some, even though he is a known commodity to GMs. Stein has never shown a consistent and fluid offensive game in 3 years of college, yet some around here are talking about him becoming a 3 pt shooter and becoming an accomplished scorer.

Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player...OK4 is a baller who needs to be more of an athlete.

Lot easier for OK4 to work on his body, just like Stein did during his 3 years, but Stein will never be as fluid as OK4 on offense.

You wonder when Stein started playing BB ball...but there are supposedly videos of OK4 playing BB as an infant.

No doubt who you take...only one of them passes the butt test.

You actually think Okafor is fluid on offense and Stein will never be as fluid? Have you not watched Stein's footwork at both ends of the floor? Stein with proper coaching may endup as a polished player like Rasheed Wallace. I say Rasheed, becAuse he played inside out and played defense as well.

Honestly, you are basically showing your ignorance if you think Stein will ever have the fluidity and moves OK4 has on the offensive end.

As I said earlier, Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player, OK4 is a baller who needs to put on some muscle to become more athletic.

Big difference, and if you don't understand that difference, you have a problem.

No chance in hell that Jackson would take Stein over OK4.

U know that for a fact????

I still believe Stein, Winslow and Russell will prove to be the best players of this draft when it is all said and done.

Okafor reminds me
Of this dude:

Eddy Curry
anuary 27, 2009
Overview: A big, strong center with a very nice low-post game. Has good size and great strength by NBA standards. Possesses good lower body strength, but doesn’t show great explosiveness or leaping ability. Surprisingly nimble for a player his size. Lacks the mental toughness or work ethic to get himself into passable shape, which will likely end up defining his basketball career. Can score effectively from the paint, and gets to the free throw line at a superb rate, which makes him somewhat of a rare commodity, and would compensate for his other serious shortcomings if he were more serious about his approach. An exceptionally poor defender, passer and rebounder. Can’t play for most coaches for that reason. Entered the draft after graduating from Thornwood High School (IL). Took a few seasons, but quickly became a very effective offensive presence in the post. Had a down year with the Knicks in 2007, and has faced major setbacks in the form of injuries and off the court issues in 2008. Knee troubles could pose a threat to his long-term effectiveness given his size. Will have to develop some type of work ethic if he’s to salvage his once promising career.

Offense: A very solid low post threat who gets more than almost two thirds of his touches on the block with his back to the basket. Won’t take essentially any jump shots. Shows some impressive skills on the block. Will fight for position, but doesn’t always do that consistently. Will post up on either block with equal effectiveness, making more shots when he can turn baseline over his left shoulder on the right block. Doesn’t show a great left hand, but is so big that he is often able to turn over his right shoulder and bring the ball back in front of his before shooting. The true definition of a space-eater. Bullies his way to the rim when he’s posting up. Can back down almost any defender he is matched up with. Shows pretty nice touch with his right hand in the form of hooks, floaters, and lay ins. Goes to the line at a phenomenal rate due to the fact that he is often the one initiating contact. Shows some nice face up moves, being able to put the ball on the floor for one dribble before exploding to the rim. Doesn’t get a lot of dunks, and could stand to work on his conditioning to improve his quickness and explosiveness. An exceptionally poor passer, with a mediocre assist to turnover ratio. Consistently ranked among the league’s worst in turnover rate. Turns the ball over at a high rate when he puts it on the floor. Gets some offensive rebounds due to his sheer size. Has good hands in general, but will look clumsy at times. Not a smooth post player by any means, but gets the job done when he’s in shape and getting touches. Will need quite a while to round back into form after missing so many games due to his knee and conditioning problems. Could still be effective in the right system if he’s able to somehow get into shape.

Defense: Puts in almost no effort at all on the defensive end. Something of a lumbering big man, lacking the foot speed to keep up with quicker post players. Will get beat off the dribble consistently when asked to guard the high post and tends to get out of position when defending the ball when his man chooses to face up. Lacks the lateral quickness to be effective against players than use a lot of spins and fakes in the post. Has no trouble holding position on the block. Does a good job against more physical back to the basket players who can’t take advantage of him physically. Will often find himself on his man’s hip due to his inability to keep up with the post moves of most players. Gets called for a lot of fouls because of how frequently he is forced to recover when he’s beat. Doesn’t show quick hands when contesting shots and isn’t quick enough to be a factor from the weakside. Not going to hedge any screens. Has a tough time getting back to help out in transition, and doesn’t try too hard either. Will be even slower if his knee issues linger. Needs to work on his awareness and anticipation. Rebounds at a terrible rate for a player his size due to his lack of athleticism and hustle. Doesn’t always get into position to box out when the shot goes up and seems to be a step behind.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/#ixzz3dRKH8Dc1
http://www.draftexpress.com

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:This is starting to sound like the "case for Stein" thread.

I would take Porzingis over Stein in a second, and OK4 over Stein in an nano-second.

I could make a case against myself for taking OK4 over a guy I really like, Porzingis because of the Triangle- can't do that with Stein. Rumor has it that Hinkie likes Porzingis over OK4...Have hear nothing significant about Stein cracking the top 3.

Everyone always talking about the Triangle-the 3 best players at the top of the draft for the Triangle, in no particular order, are Russell, Towns, and OK4.

OK4 has elite post-up skills with a feel for the game in the paint that cannot be taught. He's a good passer from down there and is a combo of Duncan and Hakeem when he wants to score. For me his issue is physical maturity and losing some weight. Foul shooting is an issue, and you want a little more range on his J, but he already uses the glass better than any big in the NBA except Duncan, and he is only 19, and he clearly has baby fat left on his body.

Stein has a man's body, already, but as has been well documented, he never demonstrated the offensive ability that would force Calipari to increase his role in the offense. Good defender, but probably not as good as some of you think, and as we all know, he was a ghost in the biggest game of his career.

Interesting to know that in his freshman year, his team did not even make the tournament. In his Soph. year his team reached the finals without him, and in the biggest game would play that year, because he was injured the next day- he had another invisible man game against Wichita State. Everyone know what happened to KU this year, and who beat them.

In his 3 years at KU, therefore, KU's best finish in the tournament was when he was injured.

Some folks yell about workout warriors who show stuff in a video 1/0- Porzingis was criticized for this, by some, even though he is a known commodity to GMs. Stein has never shown a consistent and fluid offensive game in 3 years of college, yet some around here are talking about him becoming a 3 pt shooter and becoming an accomplished scorer.

Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player...OK4 is a baller who needs to be more of an athlete.

Lot easier for OK4 to work on his body, just like Stein did during his 3 years, but Stein will never be as fluid as OK4 on offense.

You wonder when Stein started playing BB ball...but there are supposedly videos of OK4 playing BB as an infant.

No doubt who you take...only one of them passes the butt test.

You actually think Okafor is fluid on offense and Stein will never be as fluid? Have you not watched Stein's footwork at both ends of the floor? Stein with proper coaching may endup as a polished player like Rasheed Wallace. I say Rasheed, becAuse he played inside out and played defense as well.

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:This is starting to sound like the "case for Stein" thread.

I would take Porzingis over Stein in a second, and OK4 over Stein in an nano-second.

I could make a case against myself for taking OK4 over a guy I really like, Porzingis because of the Triangle- can't do that with Stein. Rumor has it that Hinkie likes Porzingis over OK4...Have hear nothing significant about Stein cracking the top 3.

Everyone always talking about the Triangle-the 3 best players at the top of the draft for the Triangle, in no particular order, are Russell, Towns, and OK4.

OK4 has elite post-up skills with a feel for the game in the paint that cannot be taught. He's a good passer from down there and is a combo of Duncan and Hakeem when he wants to score. For me his issue is physical maturity and losing some weight. Foul shooting is an issue, and you want a little more range on his J, but he already uses the glass better than any big in the NBA except Duncan, and he is only 19, and he clearly has baby fat left on his body.

Stein has a man's body, already, but as has been well documented, he never demonstrated the offensive ability that would force Calipari to increase his role in the offense. Good defender, but probably not as good as some of you think, and as we all know, he was a ghost in the biggest game of his career.

Interesting to know that in his freshman year, his team did not even make the tournament. In his Soph. year his team reached the finals without him, and in the biggest game would play that year, because he was injured the next day- he had another invisible man game against Wichita State. Everyone know what happened to KU this year, and who beat them.

In his 3 years at KU, therefore, KU's best finish in the tournament was when he was injured.

Some folks yell about workout warriors who show stuff in a video 1/0- Porzingis was criticized for this, by some, even though he is a known commodity to GMs. Stein has never shown a consistent and fluid offensive game in 3 years of college, yet some around here are talking about him becoming a 3 pt shooter and becoming an accomplished scorer.

Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player...OK4 is a baller who needs to be more of an athlete.

Lot easier for OK4 to work on his body, just like Stein did during his 3 years, but Stein will never be as fluid as OK4 on offense.

You wonder when Stein started playing BB ball...but there are supposedly videos of OK4 playing BB as an infant.

No doubt who you take...only one of them passes the butt test.

You actually think Okafor is fluid on offense and Stein will never be as fluid? Have you not watched Stein's footwork at both ends of the floor? Stein with proper coaching may endup as a polished player like Rasheed Wallace. I say Rasheed, becAuse he played inside out and played defense as well.

Rather than Rasheed i'd say WCS could end up like Ibaka. Shot blocker who also hits a decent jumper. He's more mobile and agile than Ibaka but still a very similar chance to improve his shooting.

That's a great comparison; I bet you that many on this board never could envision Ibaka to become the player he is today

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:This is starting to sound like the "case for Stein" thread.

I would take Porzingis over Stein in a second, and OK4 over Stein in an nano-second.

I could make a case against myself for taking OK4 over a guy I really like, Porzingis because of the Triangle- can't do that with Stein. Rumor has it that Hinkie likes Porzingis over OK4...Have hear nothing significant about Stein cracking the top 3.

Everyone always talking about the Triangle-the 3 best players at the top of the draft for the Triangle, in no particular order, are Russell, Towns, and OK4.

OK4 has elite post-up skills with a feel for the game in the paint that cannot be taught. He's a good passer from down there and is a combo of Duncan and Hakeem when he wants to score. For me his issue is physical maturity and losing some weight. Foul shooting is an issue, and you want a little more range on his J, but he already uses the glass better than any big in the NBA except Duncan, and he is only 19, and he clearly has baby fat left on his body.

Stein has a man's body, already, but as has been well documented, he never demonstrated the offensive ability that would force Calipari to increase his role in the offense. Good defender, but probably not as good as some of you think, and as we all know, he was a ghost in the biggest game of his career.

Interesting to know that in his freshman year, his team did not even make the tournament. In his Soph. year his team reached the finals without him, and in the biggest game would play that year, because he was injured the next day- he had another invisible man game against Wichita State. Everyone know what happened to KU this year, and who beat them.

In his 3 years at KU, therefore, KU's best finish in the tournament was when he was injured.

Some folks yell about workout warriors who show stuff in a video 1/0- Porzingis was criticized for this, by some, even though he is a known commodity to GMs. Stein has never shown a consistent and fluid offensive game in 3 years of college, yet some around here are talking about him becoming a 3 pt shooter and becoming an accomplished scorer.

Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player...OK4 is a baller who needs to be more of an athlete.

Lot easier for OK4 to work on his body, just like Stein did during his 3 years, but Stein will never be as fluid as OK4 on offense.

You wonder when Stein started playing BB ball...but there are supposedly videos of OK4 playing BB as an infant.

No doubt who you take...only one of them passes the butt test.

You actually think Okafor is fluid on offense and Stein will never be as fluid? Have you not watched Stein's footwork at both ends of the floor? Stein with proper coaching may endup as a polished player like Rasheed Wallace. I say Rasheed, becAuse he played inside out and played defense as well.

Honestly, you are basically showing your ignorance if you think Stein will ever have the fluidity and moves OK4 has on the offensive end.

As I said earlier, Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player, OK4 is a baller who needs to put on some muscle to become more athletic.

Big difference, and if you don't understand that difference, you have a problem.

No chance in hell that Jackson would take Stein over OK4.

U know that for a fact????

I still believe Stein, Winslow and Russell will prove to be the best players of this draft when it is all said and done.

Okafor reminds me
Of this dude:

Eddy Curry
anuary 27, 2009
Overview: A big, strong center with a very nice low-post game. Has good size and great strength by NBA standards. Possesses good lower body strength, but doesn’t show great explosiveness or leaping ability. Surprisingly nimble for a player his size. Lacks the mental toughness or work ethic to get himself into passable shape, which will likely end up defining his basketball career. Can score effectively from the paint, and gets to the free throw line at a superb rate, which makes him somewhat of a rare commodity, and would compensate for his other serious shortcomings if he were more serious about his approach. An exceptionally poor defender, passer and rebounder. Can’t play for most coaches for that reason. Entered the draft after graduating from Thornwood High School (IL). Took a few seasons, but quickly became a very effective offensive presence in the post. Had a down year with the Knicks in 2007, and has faced major setbacks in the form of injuries and off the court issues in 2008. Knee troubles could pose a threat to his long-term effectiveness given his size. Will have to develop some type of work ethic if he’s to salvage his once promising career.

Offense: A very solid low post threat who gets more than almost two thirds of his touches on the block with his back to the basket. Won’t take essentially any jump shots. Shows some impressive skills on the block. Will fight for position, but doesn’t always do that consistently. Will post up on either block with equal effectiveness, making more shots when he can turn baseline over his left shoulder on the right block. Doesn’t show a great left hand, but is so big that he is often able to turn over his right shoulder and bring the ball back in front of his before shooting. The true definition of a space-eater. Bullies his way to the rim when he’s posting up. Can back down almost any defender he is matched up with. Shows pretty nice touch with his right hand in the form of hooks, floaters, and lay ins. Goes to the line at a phenomenal rate due to the fact that he is often the one initiating contact. Shows some nice face up moves, being able to put the ball on the floor for one dribble before exploding to the rim. Doesn’t get a lot of dunks, and could stand to work on his conditioning to improve his quickness and explosiveness. An exceptionally poor passer, with a mediocre assist to turnover ratio. Consistently ranked among the league’s worst in turnover rate. Turns the ball over at a high rate when he puts it on the floor. Gets some offensive rebounds due to his sheer size. Has good hands in general, but will look clumsy at times. Not a smooth post player by any means, but gets the job done when he’s in shape and getting touches. Will need quite a while to round back into form after missing so many games due to his knee and conditioning problems. Could still be effective in the right system if he’s able to somehow get into shape.

Defense: Puts in almost no effort at all on the defensive end. Something of a lumbering big man, lacking the foot speed to keep up with quicker post players. Will get beat off the dribble consistently when asked to guard the high post and tends to get out of position when defending the ball when his man chooses to face up. Lacks the lateral quickness to be effective against players than use a lot of spins and fakes in the post. Has no trouble holding position on the block. Does a good job against more physical back to the basket players who can’t take advantage of him physically. Will often find himself on his man’s hip due to his inability to keep up with the post moves of most players. Gets called for a lot of fouls because of how frequently he is forced to recover when he’s beat. Doesn’t show quick hands when contesting shots and isn’t quick enough to be a factor from the weakside. Not going to hedge any screens. Has a tough time getting back to help out in transition, and doesn’t try too hard either. Will be even slower if his knee issues linger. Needs to work on his awareness and anticipation. Rebounds at a terrible rate for a player his size due to his lack of athleticism and hustle. Doesn’t always get into position to box out when the shot goes up and seems to be a step behind.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/#ixzz3dRKH8Dc1
http://www.draftexpress.com

Now that's a low blow to ok4 fans. But I have to agree. Eddie curry was a beast. The main difference is ok4 is more mature and grounded. Eddie wasn't ready for the nba life. Otherwise he had a chance to be a great nba player if he improved his defense and conditioning.

2001 comparison is crazy. And I like the ibaka comparison. I think that's spot on. Better than deandre Jordan.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:This is starting to sound like the "case for Stein" thread.

I would take Porzingis over Stein in a second, and OK4 over Stein in an nano-second.

I could make a case against myself for taking OK4 over a guy I really like, Porzingis because of the Triangle- can't do that with Stein. Rumor has it that Hinkie likes Porzingis over OK4...Have hear nothing significant about Stein cracking the top 3.

Everyone always talking about the Triangle-the 3 best players at the top of the draft for the Triangle, in no particular order, are Russell, Towns, and OK4.

OK4 has elite post-up skills with a feel for the game in the paint that cannot be taught. He's a good passer from down there and is a combo of Duncan and Hakeem when he wants to score. For me his issue is physical maturity and losing some weight. Foul shooting is an issue, and you want a little more range on his J, but he already uses the glass better than any big in the NBA except Duncan, and he is only 19, and he clearly has baby fat left on his body.

Stein has a man's body, already, but as has been well documented, he never demonstrated the offensive ability that would force Calipari to increase his role in the offense. Good defender, but probably not as good as some of you think, and as we all know, he was a ghost in the biggest game of his career.

Interesting to know that in his freshman year, his team did not even make the tournament. In his Soph. year his team reached the finals without him, and in the biggest game would play that year, because he was injured the next day- he had another invisible man game against Wichita State. Everyone know what happened to KU this year, and who beat them.

In his 3 years at KU, therefore, KU's best finish in the tournament was when he was injured.

Some folks yell about workout warriors who show stuff in a video 1/0- Porzingis was criticized for this, by some, even though he is a known commodity to GMs. Stein has never shown a consistent and fluid offensive game in 3 years of college, yet some around here are talking about him becoming a 3 pt shooter and becoming an accomplished scorer.

Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player...OK4 is a baller who needs to be more of an athlete.

Lot easier for OK4 to work on his body, just like Stein did during his 3 years, but Stein will never be as fluid as OK4 on offense.

You wonder when Stein started playing BB ball...but there are supposedly videos of OK4 playing BB as an infant.

No doubt who you take...only one of them passes the butt test.

You actually think Okafor is fluid on offense and Stein will never be as fluid? Have you not watched Stein's footwork at both ends of the floor? Stein with proper coaching may endup as a polished player like Rasheed Wallace. I say Rasheed, becAuse he played inside out and played defense as well.

Honestly, you are basically showing your ignorance if you think Stein will ever have the fluidity and moves OK4 has on the offensive end.

As I said earlier, Stein is an athlete who became a basketball player, OK4 is a baller who needs to put on some muscle to become more athletic.

Big difference, and if you don't understand that difference, you have a problem.

No chance in hell that Jackson would take Stein over OK4.

Yeah i'm actually a Stein fan but to even think he'll ever be what OK4 is on offense is ridiculous. I would take OK4 and Porzingis over Stein but I wouldn't be mad if he took Stein over Porzingis but definitely would be if he took Stein over OK4.

Knicks1969 wrote:None of us ever thought Tyson would have a better NBA career then Curry either:)))

Tyson was drafted ahead of Curry and thought to have the higher ceiling.

Actually the 2001 draft is fascinating in terms of looking back at how bigs were thought of before the draft and how they panned out:

1) Kwame Brown - Washington
2) Tyson Chandler - Chicago
3) Pau Gasol - Memphis
4) Eddy Curry - Chicago
.
.
.
.
19) Zach Randolph - Portland

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:None of us ever thought Tyson would have a better NBA career then Curry either:)))

Tyson was drafted ahead of Curry and thought to have the higher ceiling.

Actually the 2001 draft is fascinating in terms of looking back at how bigs were thought of before the draft and how they panned out:

1) Kwame Brown - Washington
2) Tyson Chandler - Chicago
3) Pau Gasol - Memphis
4) Eddy Curry - Chicago
.
.
.
.
19) Zach Randolph - Portland

He was thought as such due to his athleticism. Others valued Curry's offensive ability a lot more.

Tyson scored 30ppg in high school and a lot of assists, too. He was thought to be the next Kevin Garnett coming into the draft.

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:None of us ever thought Tyson would have a better NBA career then Curry either:)))

Tyson was drafted ahead of Curry and thought to have the higher ceiling.

Actually the 2001 draft is fascinating in terms of looking back at how bigs were thought of before the draft and how they panned out:

1) Kwame Brown - Washington
2) Tyson Chandler - Chicago
3) Pau Gasol - Memphis
4) Eddy Curry - Chicago
.
.
.
.
19) Zach Randolph - Portland

He was thought as such due to his athleticism. Others valued Curry's offensive ability a lot more.

Tyson scored 30ppg in high school and a lot of assists, too. He was thought to be the next Kevin Garnett coming into the draft.

I too thought Tyson was the better pick; because he was the better defender and the more athletically gifted dude.

Yeah, but comparing their profiles heading into the draft... Tyson was thought of more like Towns. Curry to Okafor may be fair, though the fact that Okafor and Towns did what they did for some of the biggest college programs in the nation and both got to the Final Four their freshman years has to count more than Kwame, Tyson and Eddy being fresh out of HS.

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:Rather than Rasheed i'd say WCS could end up like Ibaka. Shot blocker who also hits a decent jumper. He's more mobile and agile than Ibaka but still a very similar chance to improve his shooting.

Ibaka, that's an interesting comparison. A bigger version of Ibaka.

Let's say OK4, Towns, Russell off board, at 4 would you take a 21 year old version of Ibaka?

I really don't know how to rate WCS in terms of defensive potential. Is he a better verion of Tyson? Ben Wallace? Ibaka? His FT shooting has gone up every year which suggests that he can at least have the potential to hit 10-15 foot face up jumpers. That's a game changer for a defensive dynamic center with lateral quickness to cover PnR and perimeter players for a bit.

Ibaka has been making steady progress on his shooting and it's possible that in the end WCS could do the same. Tho WCS won't have to rely on it since he's such a dynamic athlete. WCS is such a more fluid and agile athlete. He's still gonna live off PnR, Slashing, Offensive Put Backs, Dunks in Transition, but in the Half Court he should be able to score in the flow of the offense too. He won't have to be a great shooter but if he's an average shooter he'd be a great get for this team when you factor in his Elite Defensive ability.

I actually like that Ibaka comparison a lot, nix. Nice call.