nyk4ever wrote:i cant believe some of the things im reading about cauley-stein. i wouldn't touch this kid at 4. nice player, will be a good solid role-player in the nba, but you don't take solid role-players at pick 4 in the draft... especially when theres going to be guys like justice winslow or muduiay available.

Justise Winslow and Mudiay are find players, but we can find comparable players in Free Agency or even later in the draft we can get players who can give 80-90% of what they give. We aren't going to find a defensive 7'er quite like WCS. He has the speed and agility of a guard. No 7'er in the draft is in his class.

nyk4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:i cant believe some of the things im reading about cauley-stein. i wouldn't touch this kid at 4. nice player, will be a good solid role-player in the nba, but you don't take solid role-players at pick 4 in the draft... especially when theres going to be guys like justice winslow or muduiay available.

You're not looking at it from the right perspective. He's not just ANY role player. He's an ELITE defensive talent that makes any defense instantly better by a lot. He's even more talented than Tyson defensively. His ability to help and recover to protect the rim is outstanding. He actually helps the offense with his ability to create turnovers and his speed running the floor and finishing above the defense. Even without a refined offensive game he still managed to be one of the top players in the NCAA. He's got a lot of untapped potential offensively.

Justise Winslow and Mudiay are find players, but we can find comparable players in Free Agency or even later in the draft we can get players who can give 80-90% of what they give. We aren't going to find a defensive 7'er quite like WCS. He has the speed and agility of a guard. No 7'er in the draft is in his class.

stop it, wcs does not have the speed of a pg, you are totally overrating him. he's a nice player, will be a good defensive presence, but as briggs has pointed out many times before, there are tons of questions about his motor and defense is ALL based on motor. stein would be a fine pick later in the lottery, but for a franchise looking to start over and looking for that first building block, i'm not selecting a guy with a questionable motor and no offensive game. ive watched wcs a million times at kentucky, the guy never once screamed top5 pick in the draft. ill take my chances with winslow, mudiay, russell any day over wcs. not even a question in mind.

Ny4 ever you're pick in the draft above

nyk4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:i cant believe some of the things im reading about cauley-stein. i wouldn't touch this kid at 4. nice player, will be a good solid role-player in the nba, but you don't take solid role-players at pick 4 in the draft... especially when theres going to be guys like justice winslow or muduiay available.

You're not looking at it from the right perspective. He's not just ANY role player. He's an ELITE defensive talent that makes any defense instantly better by a lot. He's even more talented than Tyson defensively. His ability to help and recover to protect the rim is outstanding. He actually helps the offense with his ability to create turnovers and his speed running the floor and finishing above the defense. Even without a refined offensive game he still managed to be one of the top players in the NCAA. He's got a lot of untapped potential offensively.

Justise Winslow and Mudiay are find players, but we can find comparable players in Free Agency or even later in the draft we can get players who can give 80-90% of what they give. We aren't going to find a defensive 7'er quite like WCS. He has the speed and agility of a guard. No 7'er in the draft is in his class.

stop it, wcs does not have the speed of a pg, you are totally overrating him. he's a nice player, will be a good defensive presence, but as briggs has pointed out many times before, there are tons of questions about his motor and defense is ALL based on motor. stein would be a fine pick later in the lottery, but for a franchise looking to start over and looking for that first building block, i'm not selecting a guy with a questionable motor and no offensive game. ive watched wcs a million times at kentucky, the guy never once screamed top5 pick in the draft. ill take my chances with winslow, mudiay, russell any day over wcs. not even a question in mind.

All i'm gonna do is keep posting as much evidence as I can to support my position. WCS has the athletic ability of a guard in the body of a center.

                   3/4 Sprint    Agility    Max Vert
John Wall          3.14          10.84      39.0"
WCS                3.15          10.45      37.0"
Tyson Chandler     3.36		 12.13	    33.5"

2. Willie Cauley-Stein might still be underrated. That Kentucky's Cauley-Stein, the man whose middle name is now officially "Trill", is No. 2 in that DWS/40 chart despite his best qualities falling outside traditional box scores is remarkable. The rangy 7-footer gets his share of rebounds, blocks and steals, but when I charted the Wildcats' defense for an SI magazine project this season, Cauley-Stein's real value became evident in rim protection (he was Kentucky's best at this); overall turnovers forced (also best on the team on a per-possession basis); switchability on pick-and-rolls, handoffs and off-ball screens; and his ability to act as a sort of rover who could, on any given possession, guard men on the blocks, cut off penetration, or close out on perimeter shooters. It's these hard-to-track and less-quantifiable attributes that make Cauley-Stein a justifiable top-five pick with the potential for a long, valuable NBA career.

Best in recent years.

Rk	Year	Team	        Player	             BPM	OBPM	DBPM
1	2012	Kentucky	Anthony Davis	     18.7	7.8	10.9
2	2013	Indiana	        Victor Oladipo	     17.0	9.7	7.3
3       2015    Wisconsin       Frank Kaminsky       15.3       9.5	5.8
4	2013	Louisville	Gorgui Dieng	     15.0	4.0	11.0
5	2014	Kansas	        Joel Embiid	     14.9	4.7	10.2
	2014	Kentucky	Willie Cauley-Stein  14.9	4.1	10.8

Opposing teams often abandon the pick-and-roll against Kentucky because Cauley-Stein’s quickness and ability to defend guards as well as centers allow the Wildcats to switch without being at a disadvantage. Cauley-Stein often guards the opposing team’s best scorer, regardless of position. The most recent example: He limited Auburn point guard K.T. Harrell, the SEC’s leading scorer, to 1-of-12 shooting.

Between his athleticism and uncanny timing, Cauley-Stein makes life difficult for opposing guards, both as a primary and roving help defender. Watching film, it almost looks as if he sometimes wants shorter players to get a half step on him, in hopes of inducing a shot. That’s how much Cauley-Stein trusts his length and foot speed: He knows he’ll be able to catch players from behind to get a block as their shots are being released.

WCS guarding Pat Connaughton and Jerian Grant

knickscity wrote:I seriously doubt Phil would use the #4 pick on WCS. Doesnt mean he cant be a terrific player. But the others are predicted to be much more, but hell...they might not pan out. But you gotta take the chance or trade the pick for depth.

I think for the Knicks with their lack of draft assets a multi team multi asset trade that makes sense will bring back the highest cumulative value for a team with big holes. If ok4 is at 4 I'd be thrilled anything else I try like heck to trade down for 3-4 players

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:I seriously doubt Phil would use the #4 pick on WCS. Doesnt mean he cant be a terrific player. But the others are predicted to be much more, but hell...they might not pan out. But you gotta take the chance or trade the pick for depth.

I think for the Knicks with their lack of draft assets a multi team multi asset trade that makes sense will bring back the highest cumulative value for a team with big holes. If ok4 is at 4 I'd be thrilled anything else I try like heck to trade down for 3-4 players

WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:I don't understand the fear in drafting Stein at 4.

A 7 feet tall monster who can defend with the best of the best immediately, one who does not require any plays call for him, which will allow chuckers like Carmelo and THJ to continue to jack up shots. He is a hell of a rebounder, and can defend PGs from penetrating the paint. WCS defense is so good, he helps the entire squad to look good. The game has changed from in the paint posting big to a spread the floor with stretch bigs. We have to chage with the game like GS and the Spurs to be relevant. WCS is my choice at 4; specifically, if Russell, Towns are not on the board.

What player on golden state reminds u of stein?

Ezeli might be the guy, perhaps.

FESTUS EZELI

Predraft Measurements
Year	Source	        Ht w/o Shoes    Ht w/shoes	Weight	Wingspan       Standing Reach	Body Fat   No Step Vert	Max Vert
2012	NBA Combine	6' 9.75"	6' 11.5"	264	7' 5.75"	9' 0"	        5.5	    34.0	33.5

Cauley Stein Predraft Measurements
Year	Source	        Ht w/o Shoes	Ht w/shoes	Wt	Wingspan	Standing Reach	Body Fat  No Step Vert	Max Vert
2015	NBA Combine	6' 11.25"	7' 0.5"	        242	7' 3"	        9' 3"	        6.3	   NA	        NA
2014	UK Pro Day	6' 11.25"	7' 0.25"	240	7' 2"	        9' 2"	        6.4	   31.0	        37.0

Stein is taller...Ezeli has a better wingspan and is stronger.

Stein has the better standing reach, but the interesting thing is the No Step vertical, which might just be a better stat for rebounding and blocking shots, while the Max Vert would be applicable to finishing on a break or running over to help block a shot from off the ball.

Look at their college stats, and there are similarities.

Ezeli is not a bad comp, but he's nowhere near as agile and quick as WCS.

        Agility   3/4 Sprint
WCS     10.45     3.15
Ezeli   12.35	  3.29

Also WCS is an extremely quick 2nd jumper. He's a human pogo stick. The extra lift WCS has on his Max Vert makes a difference when you add in his 9'3" standing reach. WCS is getting up over 12'3" max reach to finish over the top of the defense.

Bonn1997 wrote:If you replaced your definitive statements about WCS with "My hope is WCS will...", no one would be disagreeing. But it's odd to be so definitive about the improvements a player will make in the NBA and it's even stranger to be definitive about those improvements with a guy who's been stuck for 3 years.

I would like Stein a whole lot more if he displayed great passing ability or rebounded at a very high rate. I could see if he had rear years before Towns but he didn't.