holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

He hasn't actually played with any jump shooting bigs...Amare has been hurt, so you can't count him...So you really can't say...Melo has been successful with others shooters like Billups and JR on the team..So where that individual is big or small should not matter, depends on the team that is constructed..

I think it's important to note that Melo is used to playing with defensive bigs and tends to do well in that setup.

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

He hasn't actually played with any jump shooting bigs...Amare has been hurt, so you can't count him...So you really can't say...Melo has been successful with others shooters like Billups and JR on the team..So where that individual is big or small should not matter, depends on the team that is constructed..

I think it's important to note that Melo is used to playing with defensive bigs and tends to do well in that setup.

Ok but that doesn't mean he can't play with offensive bigs..I don't think we should get too much into how Melo plays best..Melo will get his points no matter who is on the court...I think we should try to build the best team who plays defense first but can score...

BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won

Yeah and Jimmer Freddette, Adam Morrison and Morris Almond were all great college players --- but sucked in the pros.

What Kaminsky did in one game or even what he did in his career really doesn't mean **** --- all that matters is which guy translates to the NBA better.

For me -- give the the 7ft elite athlete and elite rim protector / defender. You take the role playing offensive player who will be glued to the bench because he's a step slow, can't defend and who's offense won't translate at a premium level to the NBA game.

LivingLegend wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won

Yeah and Jimmer Freddette, Adam Morrison and Morris Almond were all great college players --- but sucked in the pros.

What Kaminsky did in one game or even what he did in his career really doesn't mean **** --- all that matters is which guy translates to the NBA better.

For me -- give the the 7ft elite athlete and elite rim protector / defender. You take the role playing offensive player who will be glued to the bench because he's a step slow, can't defend and who's offense won't translate at a premium level to the NBA game.

good post - i agree 100%

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It's generally easier for an offensive player to develop good defensive skills than a defensive player developing good offensive skills.

You just don't draft in the top 5 for defense. If the player comes with a defensive skill set, then you consider that as an added incentive.

The draft is one of the few areas where defense takes a lesser priority. Offensive polish, physical attributes, potential and NBA readiness trump a prospect's defensive skills.

This is why you do not draft WCS at 4.

That is a complete disaster.

Patrick Ewing, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler were drafted for defense 1st.

marcus camby

Camby was thought of as a complete player at UMass and then disappointed at first in the NBA. It wasn't til he got to the Knicks that he sort of reinvented himself as a defensive blocks and rebounds guy. As I recall, Camby's lack of a mid-range shot didn't seem to weigh down the massive positives he brought to the Knicks offense via offensive rebounds, putbacks, screens, etc.

Basketball is a team sport - you can have some guys who are good at one thing, but not another - as long as they complement one another.

Melo has played with "defense first" centers for almost his entire career - Marcus Camby in Denver and Tyson Chandler in NY. He's done far far better when he's had one of those guys. Melo's insane plus level offense that draws double teams allows guys like Chandler and Camby to get easy open looks either via lobs or being wide open under the hoop or getting offensive rebounds.

Melo has never actually had success playing with another jumpshooting big - not nearly the level of success he's had with the Chandlers, Kmarts, Cambys and Nenes of the world.

I think Melo does best with a rugged defensive squad around him. It's why I've advocated adding guys like WCS, Lance Stephenson, maybe even Rondo. He's never played well with finesse bigs like Bargnani, Amar'e, etc. I don't see that changing with Kaminsky.

He hasn't actually played with any jump shooting bigs...Amare has been hurt, so you can't count him...So you really can't say...Melo has been successful with others shooters like Billups and JR on the team..So where that individual is big or small should not matter, depends on the team that is constructed..

I think it's important to note that Melo is used to playing with defensive bigs and tends to do well in that setup.

Ok but that doesn't mean he can't play with offensive bigs..I don't think we should get too much into how Melo plays best..Melo will get his points no matter who is on the court...I think we should try to build the best team who plays defense first but can score...

Has there ever been a Knicks team with Melo that had trouble scoring? We had a team with Tyson Chandler, Raymond Felton and Jason Kidd and Iman Shumpert in the starting lineup that had the best offense in the league.

That got exposed in the playoffs, didn't it...My poiont is to worry about Melo last..I think he can adapt to anything..Lets makre sure we fill out a good team before you worry about Melo...

holfresh wrote:

That got exposed in the playoffs, didn't it...My poiont is to worry about Melo last..I think he can adapt to anything..Lets makre sure we fill out a good team before you worry about Melo...

So your plan would be to try to take a team with less defense to the playoffs? Ok.

Look, obviously they need to upgrade the offense. But they also need to upgrade the defense.

I think a team built around

Galloway
Stephenson
Melo
Monroe
WCS

would be pretty damn good. Obviously, that's not a finished product. Anyway, we'll see.

WCS is a rare physical talent and he knows what he's doing on defense. He is coming into the NBA with pro ready PnR defense. He already knows how to help and recover properly. His speed and length allow him to be effective covering a wide area of the floor. This team needs that more than it needs a big like Kaminsky.
Heck i'd love to have both guys it that were possible, but I definitely want WCS. I think he'll provide no less offense than other elite, athletic, defensive bigs have been able to achieve. Just off of his effort WCS should be able to score 10-12 ppg. If he can further improve his jump shot and jump hook, then he might do a little better than that.

LivingLegend wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the analytics "could see" willie stein being pushed all around the court by a 6-5 guy while his 33 minute effort in the biggest game of his life produced 2 points and 5 rebounds on 1-4 from the floor. On the other hand frank Kaminsky the bust was taking on 5. Seven footers and put up 21-12 and his team won

Yeah and Jimmer Freddette, Adam Morrison and Morris Almond were all great college players --- but sucked in the pros.

What Kaminsky did in one game or even what he did in his career really doesn't mean **** --- all that matters is which guy translates to the NBA better.

For me -- give the the 7ft elite athlete and elite rim protector / defender. You take the role playing offensive player who will be glued to the bench because he's a step slow, can't defend and who's offense won't translate at a premium level to the NBA game.

I agree with you. Freddette wsa able to use incredible 3 point shooting along with a football players body in a slow conference to help dominate. The Big ten is a different animal and getting to the final 4 twice is not exactly an easy feat. Its funny because the last white guy to go to 2 final fours was supposed to sck as well--Gordon Haywood--had no bounce his shot is iffy wouldnt translate well--but hes done fine. The 7-1 guy he's a different beast. Fran Kaminsky has very little to comp. Hes not 6.9 in bare feet--hes 7 feet. Not the 7 feet that sits at the rim and gets 9 points 7 rebounds and 2 blocks--he plays like he went to Larry Bird camp for 10 years. I think people get confused by Farnk because hes the wrong color and there is no player really out there like him.

LivingLegend wrote:A guy I like to compare WCS to actually went #1 in his draft -- his name was Kenyon Martin.

He basically had no offensive game outside of catching alley-oop dunks and an occasional floater/jump hook from about 8-10 feet.
This guy actually earned a MAX contract in the league and he played in 2 finals I believe - not sure on that. On those final teams he was the second best player.

He was only 6'9" tall and skinny but he defended, attacked the boards and block some shots. The only thing that held KMART back was injury.

I see a lot of KMART in WCS but Willie is 7ft and his upside is higher than KMARTS.

Yeah good comparison the only difference is that Kenyon was a dominant college player who was unstoppable on offensive end as well as the defense side. Stein not so much.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:A guy I like to compare WCS to actually went #1 in his draft -- his name was Kenyon Martin.

He basically had no offensive game outside of catching alley-oop dunks and an occasional floater/jump hook from about 8-10 feet.
This guy actually earned a MAX contract in the league and he played in 2 finals I believe - not sure on that. On those final teams he was the second best player.

He was only 6'9" tall and skinny but he defended, attacked the boards and block some shots. The only thing that held KMART back was injury.

I see a lot of KMART in WCS but Willie is 7ft and his upside is higher than KMARTS.

Yeah good comparison the only difference is that Kenyon was a dominant college player who was unstoppable on offensive end as well as the defense side. Stein not so much.

WCS avg'd about 9 ppg in 26 mpg. Tyson Chandler has avg'd 10 ppg in 30 mpg. I think we could live with WCS at about 10-12 ppg and anchoring our defense. WCS actually has more talent than Tyson. He's a quicker and more agile player and he also jumps higher. There's really no reason to think he can't be a similar player in the NBA, which for this team would be a huge plus. It's easy to overlook the kind of impact WCS can have on our defense and focus on his limited offense but we're not talking about a run of the mill defensive big. He's got elite physical abilities for a 7'er.

                   3/4 Sprint    Agility    Max Vert
John Wall          3.14          10.84      39.0"
WCS                3.15          10.45      37.0"
Tyson Chandler     3.36		 12.13	    33.5"

Averaging 9 points in 26 minutes in college basketball? big feat. Where was he in the NCCA tournament? Kentucky still has people out there looking for him. Scoring 20 points twice in 115 college basketball games is domination! Should translate well!