yellowboy90 wrote:How does Carroll help you against a team like Cleveland?

If he's not injured, he can hit wide open threes off double teams on Melo and (potentially) Monroe. He was Atlanta's highest scorer earlier in the playoffs because teams were staying on Korver and he got the open shots and nailed them.

There'll be a lot of wide open shots in the corner - look at Ariza's Finals performance in 2009. He got tons of open looks. I think Carroll is an Ariza like player and very valuable because of it.

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:How does Carroll help you against a team like Cleveland?

what do you mean?

who does help?

You right that is a tall task. Maybe I am judging him based on 1 bad game(before injury) but I was was shocked at how bad he was able to defend Lebron. There is no stopping Lebron but I want someone who can at least slow him down in the post and make him a shooter.

I am wrong to use one team as a team building comparison though. Carroll may struggle with Lebron but is good enough player to help you get to a point where you face Lebron.

I would be okay with him signing but I'd rather roll the dice on a younger player. To me I see a lot of Ariza in Carroll. Demarre seems a little better but I worry those contract year numbers will go down if he moves to another team. He would still probably be above average but he would be making $10-12m with zero possibility of an upside.

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:are we as knicks fan truly going to fall for this? lol

I couldn't help thinking about that too

think about it....a friend (not the man D.Carroll himself) says he wants to come to NY because he liked working out with D. Fisher. thats like me saying i want tomove to california because i had a good time hanging out when i visited a few days. lol

its not IMPOSSIBLE that he comes to new york, but were gonna believe THIS! lol

nixluva wrote:I think WCS is a foundational piece. He anchors your defense for a decade and allows you to build a team that you know will be strong defensively every year. It's not a small thing. You can always add more scoring. The trick is to have that player who helps your team have a chance to play championship defense. Once you have WCS every other defensive talent you add is enhanced by his presence. Carroll is suddenly an even better defender with WCS behind him. Galloway and Thomas are better. More importantly Melo is better.

When Tyson 1st came to NY in 2011-12 that team was ranked 5th in defense. I believe WCS could have that kind of impact when paired with good perimeter defenders like Carroll, Lance Thomas and Galloway. Maybe even a kid like Thanasis could come off the bench and help create a really elite defensive unit when we need stops.

If we take Willie Stein we get what we deserve. And he may show a little something in SL but when the real deal comes--I expect him to be a puzzling bench player and we will hear a LOT of boos going his way.

Lets just use recent memory--how did DRummond Monroe work out? 26 wins? Is anyone here saying Stein is going to be good as Drummond? Tiy wiull have two guys who can shoot past 6 feet and IF its Carrol and Melo--no penetration. Its an absolute failure of a plan a devastating failure we wont be able to back out of.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Carroll would be a great pickup. He doesnt pidgeon you into set line ups or marry you to certain style of play. The simple fact is we need guys. We need NBA pros who know the game and know how to win. The fact that this is a Fisher guy makes it even better. He can play either forward spot and he can defend 1-4.

He's essentially the junk yard dog (Jerome Williams) who can hit 3s. There isnt a drafted player or another FA that he doesnt fit well next to, because he's happy to earn his paycheck on defense and hitting 3s. While a starting $$ of $10mm a year seems a lot for a role player, it is... but its a need and we have the cash and he would be an impact player.

If we do go defense and draft WCS I could see a team like this being pretty good:
C WCS
PF Melo
SF Carroll ($10mm)
SG Galloway
PG Dragic ($17mm max)

Or if you pick Mudiay we have an NBA pro out there for great defense and another guy he can drive and dish to.

The notion that 29-33 is too old is nuts. He also doesnt have the minutes under his belt some of the other 30 somethings in the league have... he's bounced around alot earlier

I hope we get him

Fish - I normally agree, but age is a concern. We need players and we have cash, but honestly I'd rather find some undrafted players and roll the dice there.

The fact is peak physical performance does drop and in basketball, players peak around 27:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953

I'd rather keep my cash in my pocket unless I'm buying youth with upside or at least the hope that they will continue to play well.

Yes, there are outliers, and Carroll might do well for all 4/5 years of his next contract.

But we need to be rebuilding. We're not one move away.

DeAndre Jordan is the right age and I would offer him max money and one of Phil's rings.

My thinking doesnt change here... here's my version of your lineup:
C D Jordan ($18mm max)
PF Melo
SF Carroll ($10mm)
SG GAlloway
PG Mudiay
Bench: Calderon, THjr, Cole, Early

Still damn good... and after getting Jordan, Carrol is a nice extra piece. You have those two + Galloway you defense is going to be pretty damn good

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:We could get a younger version in Jae Crowder

yeah ... at least the same hair cause thats what counts

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:I think WCS is a foundational piece. He anchors your defense for a decade and allows you to build a team that you know will be strong defensively every year. It's not a small thing. You can always add more scoring. The trick is to have that player who helps your team have a chance to play championship defense. Once you have WCS every other defensive talent you add is enhanced by his presence. Carroll is suddenly an even better defender with WCS behind him. Galloway and Thomas are better. More importantly Melo is better.

When Tyson 1st came to NY in 2011-12 that team was ranked 5th in defense. I believe WCS could have that kind of impact when paired with good perimeter defenders like Carroll, Lance Thomas and Galloway. Maybe even a kid like Thanasis could come off the bench and help create a really elite defensive unit when we need stops.

If we take Willie Stein we get what we deserve. And he may show a little something in SL but when the real deal comes--I expect him to be a puzzling bench player and we will hear a LOT of boos going his way.

Lets just use recent memory--how did DRummond Monroe work out? 26 wins? Is anyone here saying Stein is going to be good as Drummond? Tiy wiull have two guys who can shoot past 6 feet and IF its Carrol and Melo--no penetration. Its an absolute failure of a plan a devastating failure we wont be able to back out of.

Now please explain how it would somehow be a problem to have WCS and Monroe along with Carroll on the floor with Shved and Melo? Who do leave open to help? WCS is always just a step away from dunking the ball if you leave him. Melo would be open at the top of the 3pt line or Carroll in the corner. Shved goes right to the basket if you don't help. Monroe is always in prime scoring positing where he's over 50% near the basket and he's a good passer. Despite being a big team it's not a slow team because both Monroe and WCS can run the floor and finish very well. Monroe scores at 1.32 PPP in Transition, which is excellent for a big man. WCS scores at 1.40 PPP in Transition!!! This team could be pretty good on the break after defensive possessions.

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?