Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Monroe is a dud...He hasn't help Detroit win games, so why bring he here to be slaughtered in the press...He is a low motor, zero drive player...I rather wait a year to make a run at Al Horford..

Monroe is in Detroit. He's bored there and needs new scenery. He's never been in a stable environment there to help him develop. The talent is there, and at age 24, still plenty of potential.

Then NY should do wonders for him..But his game is his game...U can't max a guy out who can't carry your team in stretches...

Also you can't max a guy out because there aren't any better alternatives..Let's wait until the following year...

His max this year won't be the max next year. 16 mil a year will be a bargain with a 90 mil salary cap in 2 years. Need to stop focusing on the price tag as it relates to the current salary cap. It's an outdated mindset. 16 mil a year for a guy who efficiently scores 16 and 10 and can pass and has yet to enter his prime years is a bargain.

The cap going up is the only argument for signing Monroe. What turns me off isn't his 16-10 it's his horrendous shooting numbers outside 3-5 feet and his absolutely atrocious defense and small arms. Putting Monroe on the front line with Melo means we need a center who is a beast at protecting the rim because there's going to be a literal red carpet down the center of the lane for opposing players to take to the basket.

Jeez if Monroe is Phil et al's plan then perhaps BRIGGS willie stein conspiracy theory isn't too far off. Which is another mistake. I get Stein can be a next level defender and I lurv me some hard nosed D and big tall centers who can terrorize guards but IMO the Knicks need to try and nab a STAR this draft. I'd feel much better taking Winslow or Mudiay (or Okafor or Russell if by some miracle they drop) and praying they become star than getting a defensive presence in the paint no matter how good that defense is.

H1AND1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Monroe is a dud...He hasn't help Detroit win games, so why bring he here to be slaughtered in the press...He is a low motor, zero drive player...I rather wait a year to make a run at Al Horford..

Monroe is in Detroit. He's bored there and needs new scenery. He's never been in a stable environment there to help him develop. The talent is there, and at age 24, still plenty of potential.

Then NY should do wonders for him..But his game is his game...U can't max a guy out who can't carry your team in stretches...

Also you can't max a guy out because there aren't any better alternatives..Let's wait until the following year...

His max this year won't be the max next year. 16 mil a year will be a bargain with a 90 mil salary cap in 2 years. Need to stop focusing on the price tag as it relates to the current salary cap. It's an outdated mindset. 16 mil a year for a guy who efficiently scores 16 and 10 and can pass and has yet to enter his prime years is a bargain.

The cap going up is the only argument for signing Monroe. What turns me off isn't his 16-10 it's his horrendous shooting numbers outside 3-5 feet and his absolutely atrocious defense and small arms. Putting Monroe on the front line with Melo means we need a center who is a beast at protecting the rim because there's going to be a literal red carpet down the center of the lane for opposing players to take to the basket.

Jeez if Monroe is Phil et al's plan then perhaps BRIGGS willie stein conspiracy theory isn't too far off. Which is another mistake. I get Stein can be a next level defender and I lurv me some hard nosed D and big tall centers who can terrorize guards but IMO the Knicks need to try and nab a STAR this draft. I'd feel much better taking Winslow or Mudiay (or Okafor or Russell if by some miracle they drop) and praying they become star than getting a defensive presence in the paint no matter how good that defense is.

Monroe is not an atrocious defender. He's average.

mreinman wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Monroe is a dud...He hasn't help Detroit win games, so why bring he here to be slaughtered in the press...He is a low motor, zero drive player...I rather wait a year to make a run at Al Horford..

Monroe is in Detroit. He's bored there and needs new scenery. He's never been in a stable environment there to help him develop. The talent is there, and at age 24, still plenty of potential.

Then NY should do wonders for him..But his game is his game...U can't max a guy out who can't carry your team in stretches...

Also you can't max a guy out because there aren't any better alternatives..Let's wait until the following year...

His max this year won't be the max next year. 16 mil a year will be a bargain with a 90 mil salary cap in 2 years. Need to stop focusing on the price tag as it relates to the current salary cap. It's an outdated mindset. 16 mil a year for a guy who efficiently scores 16 and 10 and can pass and has yet to enter his prime years is a bargain.

The cap going up is the only argument for signing Monroe. What turns me off isn't his 16-10 it's his horrendous shooting numbers outside 3-5 feet and his absolutely atrocious defense and small arms. Putting Monroe on the front line with Melo means we need a center who is a beast at protecting the rim because there's going to be a literal red carpet down the center of the lane for opposing players to take to the basket.

Jeez if Monroe is Phil et al's plan then perhaps BRIGGS willie stein conspiracy theory isn't too far off. Which is another mistake. I get Stein can be a next level defender and I lurv me some hard nosed D and big tall centers who can terrorize guards but IMO the Knicks need to try and nab a STAR this draft. I'd feel much better taking Winslow or Mudiay (or Okafor or Russell if by some miracle they drop) and praying they become star than getting a defensive presence in the paint no matter how good that defense is.

Monroe is not an atrocious defender. He's average.

he is not average and he can't block diddley

Advance stats suggest otherwise. He's not a shotblocker but he's a fair post defender.

These are the top guys at least according to Defensive Win Shares.

Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
1   DeA. Jordan	  C   26  LAC  82  2820  21.0  .638  .007  .882  16.2  32.4  24.5  3.2   1.5  5.4  12.8  13.6  7.4  5.4  12.8  .217    4.3
5   M. Gasol	  C   30  MEM  81  2687  21.7  .558  .016  .410  4.9   21.8  13.4  19.7  1.4  4.0  12.2  24.6  5.5  4.7  10.2  .182    4.6
7   P. Millsap	  PF  29  ATL  73  2390  20.1  .565  .232  .362  6.9   20.0  13.6  15.4  2.8  2.4  13.3  23.8  4.0  4.3  8.3   .167    3.7
9   L. Aldridge	  PF  29  POR  71  2512  22.8  .528  .074  .256  7.7   22.9  15.5  9.2   1.0  1.9  7.2   30.2  4.9  3.7  8.6   .165    1.4
10  K. Love	  PF  26  CLE  75  2532  18.8  .562  .412  .337  6.5   26.3  16.6  10.7  1.0  1.2  10.0  21.7  5.8  2.9  8.7   .165    2.5
17  G. Monroe	  PF  24  DET  69  2137  21.2  .549  .000  .394  11.2  25.1  17.9  11.7  1.9  1.3  13.0  23.9  4.0  2.8  6.8   .153    2.1
35  Kosta Koufos  C   25  MEM  81  1348  14.2  .530  .000  .237  10.3  25.8  18.1  4.3   1.1  3.9  14.9  15.8  0.8  2.5  3.3   .118    0.2
34  Omer Asik	  C   28  NOP  76  1982  15.5  .545  .000  .546  14.0  28.8  21.4  5.4   0.8  2.1  15.7  14.0  2.8  2.2  5.0   .120    0.6
14  Brook Lopez	  C   26  BRK  72  2100  22.7  .558  .010  .278  11.5  17.1  14.3  4.5   1.1  4.8  8.6   26.3  4.7  2.2  7.0   .159    1.1
15  B. Biyombo	  C   22  CHO  64  1243  15.2  .578  .000  .941  13.7  22.6  18.0  2.0   0.7  6.3  16.5  11.6  1.8  2.2  4.0   .155    0.5
23  Enes Kanter	  C   22  TOT  75  2135  20.3  .564  .048  .252  14.6  20.5  17.6  4.8   0.9  1.1  12.3  24.7  4.3  2.1  6.4   .145   -0.1
21  Tri Thompson  PF  23  CLE  82  2194  15.6  .580  .000  .508  14.5  19.7  17.2  2.7   0.8  2.2  12.2  14.0  4.7  2.1  6.8   .148    0.8

Monroe has a 7'2.25" Wingspan and a 9'0.5" standing reach. His problem isn't that he has short arms. It's that he can't jump and has poor timing on blocking shots. Also he has poor reaction time and instincts on penetrators. He's got Bargnani Disease even worse than Bargs in terms of shot blocking and help D. Monroe does have quick hands and gets steals. He's also a strong rebounder despite his lack of hops. Monroe is actually agile for a guy his size. He can get better defensively with work and dedication to his craft.

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Monroe is a dud...He hasn't help Detroit win games, so why bring he here to be slaughtered in the press...He is a low motor, zero drive player...I rather wait a year to make a run at Al Horford..

Monroe is in Detroit. He's bored there and needs new scenery. He's never been in a stable environment there to help him develop. The talent is there, and at age 24, still plenty of potential.

Then NY should do wonders for him..But his game is his game...U can't max a guy out who can't carry your team in stretches...

Also you can't max a guy out because there aren't any better alternatives..Let's wait until the following year...

His max this year won't be the max next year. 16 mil a year will be a bargain with a 90 mil salary cap in 2 years. Need to stop focusing on the price tag as it relates to the current salary cap. It's an outdated mindset. 16 mil a year for a guy who efficiently scores 16 and 10 and can pass and has yet to enter his prime years is a bargain.

The cap going up is the only argument for signing Monroe. What turns me off isn't his 16-10 it's his horrendous shooting numbers outside 3-5 feet and his absolutely atrocious defense and small arms. Putting Monroe on the front line with Melo means we need a center who is a beast at protecting the rim because there's going to be a literal red carpet down the center of the lane for opposing players to take to the basket.

Jeez if Monroe is Phil et al's plan then perhaps BRIGGS willie stein conspiracy theory isn't too far off. Which is another mistake. I get Stein can be a next level defender and I lurv me some hard nosed D and big tall centers who can terrorize guards but IMO the Knicks need to try and nab a STAR this draft. I'd feel much better taking Winslow or Mudiay (or Okafor or Russell if by some miracle they drop) and praying they become star than getting a defensive presence in the paint no matter how good that defense is.

Monroe is not an atrocious defender. He's average.

he is not average and he can't block diddley

Advance stats suggest otherwise. He's not a shotblocker but he's a fair post defender.

advanced stats are weak when judging defense.

Isn't that a huge flaw? it's half the game!

yes ... it is a big flaw in advanced stats and thats why you need a combo of stats and eyes

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Among the bigs that we have available in Free Agency Monroe is not the worst defender. Part of defense is also rebounds which so many people forget or undervalue. Steals are also a part of it and a part of D that a lot of people ignore is man to man D. Blocked shots is only one aspect of defense.

These are the top guys at least according to Defensive Win Shares.

Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
1   DeA. Jordan	  C   26  LAC  82  2820  21.0  .638  .007  .882  16.2  32.4  24.5  3.2   1.5  5.4  12.8  13.6  7.4  5.4  12.8  .217    4.3
5   M. Gasol	  C   30  MEM  81  2687  21.7  .558  .016  .410  4.9   21.8  13.4  19.7  1.4  4.0  12.2  24.6  5.5  4.7  10.2  .182    4.6
7   P. Millsap	  PF  29  ATL  73  2390  20.1  .565  .232  .362  6.9   20.0  13.6  15.4  2.8  2.4  13.3  23.8  4.0  4.3  8.3   .167    3.7
9   L. Aldridge	  PF  29  POR  71  2512  22.8  .528  .074  .256  7.7   22.9  15.5  9.2   1.0  1.9  7.2   30.2  4.9  3.7  8.6   .165    1.4
10  K. Love	  PF  26  CLE  75  2532  18.8  .562  .412  .337  6.5   26.3  16.6  10.7  1.0  1.2  10.0  21.7  5.8  2.9  8.7   .165    2.5
17  G. Monroe	  PF  24  DET  69  2137  21.2  .549  .000  .394  11.2  25.1  17.9  11.7  1.9  1.3  13.0  23.9  4.0  2.8  6.8   .153    2.1
35  Kosta Koufos  C   25  MEM  81  1348  14.2  .530  .000  .237  10.3  25.8  18.1  4.3   1.1  3.9  14.9  15.8  0.8  2.5  3.3   .118    0.2
34  Omer Asik	  C   28  NOP  76  1982  15.5  .545  .000  .546  14.0  28.8  21.4  5.4   0.8  2.1  15.7  14.0  2.8  2.2  5.0   .120    0.6
14  Brook Lopez	  C   26  BRK  72  2100  22.7  .558  .010  .278  11.5  17.1  14.3  4.5   1.1  4.8  8.6   26.3  4.7  2.2  7.0   .159    1.1
15  B. Biyombo	  C   22  CHO  64  1243  15.2  .578  .000  .941  13.7  22.6  18.0  2.0   0.7  6.3  16.5  11.6  1.8  2.2  4.0   .155    0.5
23  Enes Kanter	  C   22  TOT  75  2135  20.3  .564  .048  .252  14.6  20.5  17.6  4.8   0.9  1.1  12.3  24.7  4.3  2.1  6.4   .145   -0.1
21  Tri Thompson  PF  23  CLE  82  2194  15.6  .580  .000  .508  14.5  19.7  17.2  2.7   0.8  2.2  12.2  14.0  4.7  2.1  6.8   .148    0.8

Monroe has a 7'2.25" Wingspan and a 9'0.5" standing reach. His problem isn't that he has short arms. It's that he can't jump and has poor timing on blocking shots. Also he has poor reaction time and instincts on penetrators. He's got Bargnani Disease even worse than Bargs in terms of shot blocking and help D. Monroe does have quick hands and gets steals. He's also a strong rebounder despite his lack of hops. Monroe is actually agile for a guy his size. He can get better defensively with work and dedication to his craft.

Nix, I get what you are saying. Not the worst, alright. But holy cow, wow and WTF. Those numbers are super dooper sad. Are you telling me he is worse than Kevin freakin Love? And the only players that are below him are horrendous? That puts him a notch above horrendous. That's really sad, I didn't realize how amazingly crappy he was on D. Your post, I think, did the complete opposite of what it was supposed to do. All of a sudden I want no part of this Monroe person. Damn , maybe I am overreacting but this is very troubling, the only thing that kind of soothes me( because we might sign him) are his rebound numbers and his assists. He would be the best big in the FA it it wasn't for his D. And his D is. . . Well it's . . .i don't know what to say

The problem is that people expectations are way off. People hate on Love but he and Monroe are good rebounders. That is part of defense. Monroe also gets steals which is also part of defense. People have to be realistic cuz there aren't a lot of great defenders out there and that's why I've been pushing for Willie Cauley Stein to anchor our defense. Monroe can't anchor your D, but he would be more than adequate in tandem with WCS.