fishmike wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Okafor will be just fine. He'll have a better career than Boozer or Laettner or Brand. I do think I want Towns more now though, which I wasn't expecting to say

they are both very good prospects and bring different things to the table.

At this point you have some guys that dont want to discuss anything. They just want to make sure their golden mooby is shined and sparkling. I dont really get the point. We should have 5 guys targeted because we dont know where we are picking. I think some of the guards have higher upside.

I agree with that. I think both are slightly limited. Towns excels on the defensive end (but not at rebounding) and Okafor has a ton of offensive skill AND polish

I really, really like Russell. I really, really like Justice Winslow (I see a Paul George type.. more of a SG than SF though).

I won't pretend to know anything about the kid from the Congo but he is certainly intriguing.

Towns does? Know I know this is a bit tongue and cheek, but before the ND game Towns had 8 PFs and 9 points in the prior two tourney games combined. His PFs per 36 minutes are well over 5 per game.

I find it funny that OK4 is the best player on a title team and has all these concerns. Meanwhile Towns is the 4th scorer and 2nd rebounder on a team with half the players declaring for the draft but will be fine because he "excels at everything" or is this great great defensive player... who cant stay out of foul trouble, when he's the physically dominating his peers.

It just tells me people have made their choice, and are now simply posting to back up their choice, not to talk about the players anymore. Hasheem Thabeet was a great defender also... and much bigger and longer than Towns.

Eventhough I think Towns is far ahead of Thabeet when they were the same age.....and even now. It's also a good example of players not reaching their potential.

If Towns doesn't reach his offensive potential, then you have a solid 7foot defender with lateral quickness off the bench.

If OK4 doesn't reach his defensive potential, what do you have? Mike Sweetney? A big body who can score under the basket, but is a liability on defense?

Potential goes up or down...Both players have risks. It depends on how much risk can we afford on offense and defense. If Phil prefers defense, then he will take the offensive risk of Towns. If it was Mike Danphoni, then he would exempt the defensive risk of OK4.

I think OK4 has flashes of defense, better than he's shown in the past....Or maybe I finally watched an entire game. His defense suffers when he's in foul trouble. He's non existent. But you have to learn how to play defense, even in foul trouble. Also, Duke has a better defensive system and better wing defenders to hide OK4. Kentucky doesn't have any bigs with a low post game to hide Towns...Towns is their best offensive post player, eventhough he's a project.

What am I saying?

I don't know....just rambling because I'm ready to go home!

Here's my beef with your post and all similar posts. Your essentially putting OK4's offense and Town's defense in the same category as their strengths, and as far as I am concerned they are not even close to equal. You say OK4 has to learn to defend when he has fouls, but Towns doesnt do that. He just picks up more fouls. Before he went off against ND being guarded single man guarded by a guy who was 6'6, Towns scored 9 points and had 8 fouls in the combined in the two games prior. Do we ignore that data? Towns averages a foul every 7 minutes and 5 per 36... and this is a guy who's CALLING CARD to the NBA is defense.

But hey.. no red flags there

He's a spaz. He's got some great skills and size, but if you want to see Town's play at both ends and stay on the floor you have to look at his high school games, because he so very rarely did that at KY.

I mean in these games OK4 struggled they ran 2-3 guys at him every possesion. Teams prefered to play 3-4 rather than let OK4 beat them. Thats still letting OK4 beat you.

Not sure how you get that Towns is a "spaz". His low-post game looked sharp to me - quick, agile, soft-touch. Give him a summer camp or two with The Dream, and I think he could become an elite post-scorer. He can shoot with range. He has a pretty good handle for a big (not Kaminsky-like, but good enough). He has impeccable shot-blocking skills, great team defensive instincts, great catch-up velocity, an apparent hunger to excel and enough athleticism to exploit that hunger.

Spaz? Might be a bit of an exaggeration.

Anyone who has seen him play and scouted him sees the skills you mention. I 100% see them as well. Now simply riddle me this.. his spastic play takes him out of the game, a lot. A ton in fact. Its a big baffling how someone with his size and skill set isnt putting up 15/10 at the very very least. 10/7 is pedestrian. When your a 7 foot elite bigman in the NCAA thats terrible. So why? We despite playing next to a pair of 7 footers he has trouble staying on the floor.

Mostly the reasons I read to take Towns #1 are negatives from the other players on the draft board, not why Towns has actually earned the spot. As far as Towns earning the #1 slot I hear the same things over and over which is potential.

I'll grant you that the reason to take him #1 is his potential. I'd further assert that the same should be said for every other first round pick. There are ZERO sure things in any draft. GMs have to gauge where they think that potential will lead and how the player might develop within the parameters of an NBA program.

From what I have seen (despite the sometimes pedestrian stats - which I attribute to being on a stacked Kentucky team as a freshman) Towns has the highest ceiling and most versatile game of the bigs on the board. I do not think for a second that he is a sure thing, just that he is the best all-around player and the one I fully expect the Knicks to pick if they land the #1 overall, since Towns fits our system and needs perfectly.

But I will also say that he could end up a bust, injury-wise or attitude-wise. But that's a relatively low risk compared to how amazing he could become. From my POV, he's the closest thing we will get to drafting the next Ewing or Dream. And that's a risk I am excited to take.

PLEASE PING PONG BALLS, GRANT THIS WISH!

gunsnewing wrote:Also I never questioned the respect Ok4 commands offensively. The issue is defense. He is not just average of bad he is abominable. More like Eddy Curry/ Mike Sweetney than Boozer/Jefferson. He doesn't even attempt to stay in front of his man and not get beat off he dribble. Kaminsky put on a clinic last night.

Makes me really question.how good ok4 will really be in the pros. At this rate he will bounce around the league but still be a valuable piece to teams in need of post scoring

BTw.. when you say "at this rate" he's 19 and was the best player on the team who just won the title. So what "rate" are you reffering to guns?

Ok4's has no perimeter shot. He should not be the #1 pick. It's not like he is 7'1 360 bullying everyone inside like Shaq.

I think Towns, Mudiay and Winslow are much better 2way franchise cornerstone prospects. Those are the guys you target at the top. Unfortunately some teams don't and they pay dearly as history has proven

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Okafor will be just fine. He'll have a better career than Boozer or Laettner or Brand. I do think I want Towns more now though, which I wasn't expecting to say

they are both very good prospects and bring different things to the table.

At this point you have some guys that dont want to discuss anything. They just want to make sure their golden mooby is shined and sparkling. I dont really get the point. We should have 5 guys targeted because we dont know where we are picking. I think some of the guards have higher upside.

I agree with that. I think both are slightly limited. Towns excels on the defensive end (but not at rebounding) and Okafor has a ton of offensive skill AND polish

I really, really like Russell. I really, really like Justice Winslow (I see a Paul George type.. more of a SG than SF though).

I won't pretend to know anything about the kid from the Congo but he is certainly intriguing.

Towns does? Know I know this is a bit tongue and cheek, but before the ND game Towns had 8 PFs and 9 points in the prior two tourney games combined. His PFs per 36 minutes are well over 5 per game.

I find it funny that OK4 is the best player on a title team and has all these concerns. Meanwhile Towns is the 4th scorer and 2nd rebounder on a team with half the players declaring for the draft but will be fine because he "excels at everything" or is this great great defensive player... who cant stay out of foul trouble, when he's the physically dominating his peers.

It just tells me people have made their choice, and are now simply posting to back up their choice, not to talk about the players anymore. Hasheem Thabeet was a great defender also... and much bigger and longer than Towns.

Eventhough I think Towns is far ahead of Thabeet when they were the same age.....and even now. It's also a good example of players not reaching their potential.

If Towns doesn't reach his offensive potential, then you have a solid 7foot defender with lateral quickness off the bench.

If OK4 doesn't reach his defensive potential, what do you have? Mike Sweetney? A big body who can score under the basket, but is a liability on defense?

Potential goes up or down...Both players have risks. It depends on how much risk can we afford on offense and defense. If Phil prefers defense, then he will take the offensive risk of Towns. If it was Mike Danphoni, then he would exempt the defensive risk of OK4.

I think OK4 has flashes of defense, better than he's shown in the past....Or maybe I finally watched an entire game. His defense suffers when he's in foul trouble. He's non existent. But you have to learn how to play defense, even in foul trouble. Also, Duke has a better defensive system and better wing defenders to hide OK4. Kentucky doesn't have any bigs with a low post game to hide Towns...Towns is their best offensive post player, eventhough he's a project.

What am I saying?

I don't know....just rambling because I'm ready to go home!

Here's my beef with your post and all similar posts. Your essentially putting OK4's offense and Town's defense in the same category as their strengths, and as far as I am concerned they are not even close to equal. You say OK4 has to learn to defend when he has fouls, but Towns doesnt do that. He just picks up more fouls. Before he went off against ND being guarded single man guarded by a guy who was 6'6, Towns scored 9 points and had 8 fouls in the combined in the two games prior. Do we ignore that data? Towns averages a foul every 7 minutes and 5 per 36... and this is a guy who's CALLING CARD to the NBA is defense.

But hey.. no red flags there

He's a spaz. He's got some great skills and size, but if you want to see Town's play at both ends and stay on the floor you have to look at his high school games, because he so very rarely did that at KY.

I mean in these games OK4 struggled they ran 2-3 guys at him every possesion. Teams prefered to play 3-4 rather than let OK4 beat them. Thats still letting OK4 beat you.

Not sure how you get that Towns is a "spaz". His low-post game looked sharp to me - quick, agile, soft-touch. Give him a summer camp or two with The Dream, and I think he could become an elite post-scorer. He can shoot with range. He has a pretty good handle for a big (not Kaminsky-like, but good enough). He has impeccable shot-blocking skills, great team defensive instincts, great catch-up velocity, an apparent hunger to excel and enough athleticism to exploit that hunger.

Spaz? Might be a bit of an exaggeration.

Anyone who has seen him play and scouted him sees the skills you mention. I 100% see them as well. Now simply riddle me this.. his spastic play takes him out of the game, a lot. A ton in fact. Its a big baffling how someone with his size and skill set isnt putting up 15/10 at the very very least. 10/7 is pedestrian. When your a 7 foot elite bigman in the NCAA thats terrible. So why? We despite playing next to a pair of 7 footers he has trouble staying on the floor.

Mostly the reasons I read to take Towns #1 are negatives from the other players on the draft board, not why Towns has actually earned the spot. As far as Towns earning the #1 slot I hear the same things over and over which is potential.

I'll grant you that the reason to take him #1 is his potential. I'd further assert that the same should be said for every other first round pick. There are ZERO sure things in any draft. GMs have to gauge where they think that potential will lead and how the player might develop within the parameters of an NBA program.

From what I have seen (despite the sometimes pedestrian stats - which I attribute to being on a stacked Kentucky team as a freshman) Towns has the highest ceiling and most versatile game of the bigs on the board. I do not think for a second that he is a sure thing, just that he is the best all-around player and the one I fully expect the Knicks to pick if they land the #1 overall, since Towns fits our system and needs perfectly.

But I will also say that he could end up a bust, injury-wise or attitude-wise. But that's a relatively low risk compared to how amazing he could become. From my POV, he's the closest thing we will get to drafting the next Ewing or Dream. And that's a risk I am excited to take.

PLEASE PING PONG BALLS, GRANT THIS WISH!

I like Towns because I see him being the best prospect.

As opposed to

Towns is best because OK4 is just another Mike Sweetney/Carlos Boozer and "at this rate" might be a good bench player for a team that needs some scoring in the post.

Moonangie, Im of the opinion that we are lucky to get either. Im also of the opinion some of wings may be better, but we will draft big if big is still on the board. I have listed OK4 and Towns and 1 and 1a. OK4 is my 1 because I have seen an offense run around him and only Kaminsky has been as consistent as OK4 through the year. OK4 has made a ton of good defensive plays this year. Yes he's too passive at times. Yes he hangs back because his offense is so relied on so he cant get in foul trouble. Yes he's not chisled and will probably need to some work before his body is ready to absorb the NBA beating, but he's also shown at 19 with those concerns he can lead on the court and the eff% he scores at is unprecedented.

I dont buy for one second his perceived lack of athleticism hurts him in the NBA. He's huge, long, strong and very quick. I dont remember Marc Gasol being mistaken for a high flyer and he won DPOY, and OK4 boxes out on every single play so I know come NBA he can score at a high % and rebound.

Tell me one part of his career at KY that prepped Towns for the pros? I just hope he's got the makeup to take some lumps in the NBA, because there will be plenty for him. Thats the part that scares me about Towns. He's too far from being ready that its either 5 years away and he's the next Whiteside, or at 20 being a millionaire and sucking at basketball is just too hard for him and he bails. After his rookie deal he will have made $25mm give or take. Both have red flags, every pick not named Duncan has. Town's scares me more. Thats my biggest worry on Towns.

gunsnewing wrote:Also OK4 has too shoot better than 60% from the line when Towns shoots 85%

Ok4's has no perimeter shot. He should not be the #1 pick. It's not like he is 7'1 360 bullying everyone inside like Shaq.

I think Towns, Mudiay and Winslow are much better 2way franchise cornerstone prospects. Those are the guys you target at the top. Unfortunately some teams don't and they pay dearly as history has proven

History has also proven taking guys who are the 4th scorer and 2nd rebounder on the team and foul at a rate of 5+ per 36 are also

What interesting is that you would make stuff up to endorse Towns and make stuff up to detract from OK4. Why are you so invested in this?

gunsnewing wrote:Because I no longer want Ok4 even if Towns is off the board. The knicks would be making a huge mistake pairing him up with Melo

Melo and OK4 would be fantastic. It would be pretty easy to find a big to fit next to them. Robin Lopez, Thadeus Young... that would be a great start.

We have to be careful with kids like Okafor and assuming that we've seen the best from them in a college setting. Players often look a lot different in the NBA than they do in College. They often get to use more of their game and in OK4's case he's got NBA size already and he'll get more space to operate in the NBA. OK4 is only 19!!! He won't turn 20 until December 15th. Also he'll be able to concentrate 100% on basketball and I think he'll take his game to another level with that extra time and getting pro training.

As for OK4 and Melo together I see no problem with it at all. In fact I think OK4 will be able to help Melo right from the start. The kid is smart and skilled and would be able to pass out of doubles and catch anything thrown his way.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:To everyone accusing me of making things up I ask you to please be specific so that I can address each of the allegations

OK you made stuff up about Town's rebounding #s and you made stuff up about OK4 being out of shape and mentioned Sweetney/Curry which when you look at the photo above you realize how silly your starting to sound.

It doesnt matter dude. Towns will ignore everything he learned at KY, and become a traditional NBA big. He will also do anything on the floor that Carmelo doesnt. He will pass the ball, score at great eff%, protect the rim, and be the two way player that that we lost with Shump err... I mean Ewing. I think you need a UK break

I dont get you... why make 9000 posts on why OK4 is a bunch of stuff he isnt when you just dont want him next to Melo? Ironically the things your worried about arent even true.

Certainly Towns minutes & rebounding numbers have increased from December to April while Ok4's has gone down no? What is false about that? I won't go over why Towns average is at 10 & 8 again Eventhough they have gone up from the 9&6 that had you proudly pounding your chest to discredit him