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FistOfOakley
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3/26/2015  2:58 PM
well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...
AUTOADVERT
crzymdups
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3/26/2015  3:07 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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3/26/2015  3:19 PM
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

We're not trading the pick! In this case it's not wrong to rationalize the Tyson trade. In the end it is likely to work in our favor. Tyson might have meant the team won a few more games early and that could've caused Phil to wait a bit longer before pulling the plugs. Given how things are headed with this "Non Tank" we're right were we want to be. Better to bottom out than stay mediocre.

mreinman
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3/26/2015  3:59 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

this is like the guy who gets into a car accident for driving drunk and while getting an MRI they discover early stage of a brain tumor.

Lucky guy? He sure was.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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3/26/2015  4:05 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

We're not trading the pick! In this case it's not wrong to rationalize the Tyson trade. In the end it is likely to work in our favor. Tyson might have meant the team won a few more games early and that could've caused Phil to wait a bit longer before pulling the plugs. Given how things are headed with this "Non Tank" we're right were we want to be. Better to bottom out than stay mediocre.

What are you basing that on? The Knicks have traded every lotto or draft pick they've had since Dolan got here - usually before they knew who was in the draft (LaMarcus Aldrige, Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Kirk Snyder), sometimes at the draft (Nene), sometimes after a year or two and getting impatient (Frye, Sweetney, Jordan Hill, Gallinari)

That's 9 lottery picks - none we kept into year three. 5 we traded before the draft or at the draft.

This is why we've lost the most games in the NBA since 1999.

¿ △ ?
mreinman
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3/26/2015  4:10 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

We're not trading the pick! In this case it's not wrong to rationalize the Tyson trade. In the end it is likely to work in our favor. Tyson might have meant the team won a few more games early and that could've caused Phil to wait a bit longer before pulling the plugs. Given how things are headed with this "Non Tank" we're right were we want to be. Better to bottom out than stay mediocre.

What are you basing that on? The Knicks have traded every lotto or draft pick they've had since Dolan got here - usually before they knew who was in the draft (LaMarcus Aldrige, Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Kirk Snyder), sometimes at the draft (Nene), sometimes after a year or two and getting impatient (Frye, Sweetney, Jordan Hill, Gallinari)

That's 9 lottery picks - none we kept into year three. 5 we traded before the draft or at the draft.

This is why we've lost the most games in the NBA since 1999.

not happening this year.

The fans are always for this, even with stupid bargs.

The fans will not tolerate it this year (possibly baring a crazy KD move).

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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3/26/2015  4:11 PM
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

We're not trading the pick! In this case it's not wrong to rationalize the Tyson trade. In the end it is likely to work in our favor. Tyson might have meant the team won a few more games early and that could've caused Phil to wait a bit longer before pulling the plugs. Given how things are headed with this "Non Tank" we're right were we want to be. Better to bottom out than stay mediocre.

What are you basing that on? The Knicks have traded every lotto or draft pick they've had since Dolan got here - usually before they knew who was in the draft (LaMarcus Aldrige, Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Kirk Snyder), sometimes at the draft (Nene), sometimes after a year or two and getting impatient (Frye, Sweetney, Jordan Hill, Gallinari)

That's 9 lottery picks - none we kept into year three. 5 we traded before the draft or at the draft.

This is why we've lost the most games in the NBA since 1999.

not happening this year.

The fans are always for this, even with stupid bargs.

The fans will not tolerate it this year (possibly baring a crazy KD move).

Fans here said no way Donnie would give up half the team for Melo. We finally had a patient GM who would do the smart thing and sign Melo for cap space in the summer.

I hope you're right. Just saying, I've seen this movie before. Hoping for a twist ending this time!

¿ △ ?
mreinman
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3/26/2015  4:17 PM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

I'm sure people will rationalize if we trade the pick, too. At least we can all watch Tyson, Shump, JR and Amare in the playoffs this year.

We're not trading the pick! In this case it's not wrong to rationalize the Tyson trade. In the end it is likely to work in our favor. Tyson might have meant the team won a few more games early and that could've caused Phil to wait a bit longer before pulling the plugs. Given how things are headed with this "Non Tank" we're right were we want to be. Better to bottom out than stay mediocre.

What are you basing that on? The Knicks have traded every lotto or draft pick they've had since Dolan got here - usually before they knew who was in the draft (LaMarcus Aldrige, Joakim Noah, Gordon Hayward, Kirk Snyder), sometimes at the draft (Nene), sometimes after a year or two and getting impatient (Frye, Sweetney, Jordan Hill, Gallinari)

That's 9 lottery picks - none we kept into year three. 5 we traded before the draft or at the draft.

This is why we've lost the most games in the NBA since 1999.

not happening this year.

The fans are always for this, even with stupid bargs.

The fans will not tolerate it this year (possibly baring a crazy KD move).

Fans here said no way Donnie would give up half the team for Melo. We finally had a patient GM who would do the smart thing and sign Melo for cap space in the summer.

I hope you're right. Just saying, I've seen this movie before. Hoping for a twist ending this time!

Nothing is guaranteed but I would take that bet and believe that I would be 95 : 5.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Bonn1997
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3/26/2015  4:21 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, Tyson Chandler is 2nd place in the FA WS48 rankings. You left him off.

Yes I did that on purpose. This year he's back at his high level of play but as I said above he was not in the best mental and physical state at the end of last year and I can understand why Phil would look to move him. He's not a player under consideration.

My view on the roster being revamped is that there are multiple players who Phil can acquire who would reasonably be expected to have a major positive impact on the team. He has to target those players and fashion a roster that fits great together. With this list its clear that there should be 2-3 players he can add that would bring increased value to the team over the players we have now.

Even outside of the most expensive guys you have the younger group like Butler, Monroe, Ajinca, Draymond Green, Danny Green, Cory Joseph, Khris Middleton etc. who are less expensive due to their years in the league but they offer great value.

They finished 16-5 last season once Tyson was finally healthy. 16 wins. aka more wins than this current team will win in its full season.

Trading Tyson was absolutely stupid. Any culture that allows a player that good to be unhappy is toxic in the extreme.

I think Amare was much more a factor in that late surge than Tyson. I dont know what was said or what turned Phil off so much about Tyson. The right thing would have been to cut Felton, and keep Tyson as an asset (Mosgov fetched 2 picks) but thats easy to call now. People HATED Tyson last year... and that trade was further spoiled by Calderon going from the starting PG and shooting 50% on a 50 win Mavs team to being totally useless except to serve as Brigg's whipping boy. He also used Tyson to trade into the draft. Early has been hurt and a disappointment (last night he looked OK) and Thanisis had a good year in the D league. I get its nothing earth shattering but you traded for a floor general (which he was) and he couldnt stay on the floor and two 2d round prospects who are helping to build a pipeline.

The trade has been a fail, no arguement there... Im just saying I can see why Phil did it and those reasons arent bad. Hindsight says Phil sold low and bought high.


Many were saying this then too.
It's a tough argument to sell that Amare was key in that 16-5 run. Then why did the team get much worse while we kept Amare but lost Tyson?
crzymdups
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3/26/2015  4:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, Tyson Chandler is 2nd place in the FA WS48 rankings. You left him off.

Yes I did that on purpose. This year he's back at his high level of play but as I said above he was not in the best mental and physical state at the end of last year and I can understand why Phil would look to move him. He's not a player under consideration.

My view on the roster being revamped is that there are multiple players who Phil can acquire who would reasonably be expected to have a major positive impact on the team. He has to target those players and fashion a roster that fits great together. With this list its clear that there should be 2-3 players he can add that would bring increased value to the team over the players we have now.

Even outside of the most expensive guys you have the younger group like Butler, Monroe, Ajinca, Draymond Green, Danny Green, Cory Joseph, Khris Middleton etc. who are less expensive due to their years in the league but they offer great value.

They finished 16-5 last season once Tyson was finally healthy. 16 wins. aka more wins than this current team will win in its full season.

Trading Tyson was absolutely stupid. Any culture that allows a player that good to be unhappy is toxic in the extreme.

I think Amare was much more a factor in that late surge than Tyson. I dont know what was said or what turned Phil off so much about Tyson. The right thing would have been to cut Felton, and keep Tyson as an asset (Mosgov fetched 2 picks) but thats easy to call now. People HATED Tyson last year... and that trade was further spoiled by Calderon going from the starting PG and shooting 50% on a 50 win Mavs team to being totally useless except to serve as Brigg's whipping boy. He also used Tyson to trade into the draft. Early has been hurt and a disappointment (last night he looked OK) and Thanisis had a good year in the D league. I get its nothing earth shattering but you traded for a floor general (which he was) and he couldnt stay on the floor and two 2d round prospects who are helping to build a pipeline.

The trade has been a fail, no arguement there... Im just saying I can see why Phil did it and those reasons arent bad. Hindsight says Phil sold low and bought high.


Many were saying this then too.
It's a tough argument to sell that Amare was key in that 16-5 run. Then why did the team get much worse while we kept Amare but lost Tyson?

I remember last year well. That run. Amar'e played well on offense... but I still cringed whenever he had the ball. For offense, I give JR a lot more credit. Dude was on fire. As was Melo.

Tyson was the anchor. He didn't put up gaudy offensive numbers, but it's not like there were any shots leftover after JR, MElo and Amar'e combined for like 60 shots a game.

¿ △ ?
mreinman
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3/26/2015  4:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, Tyson Chandler is 2nd place in the FA WS48 rankings. You left him off.

Yes I did that on purpose. This year he's back at his high level of play but as I said above he was not in the best mental and physical state at the end of last year and I can understand why Phil would look to move him. He's not a player under consideration.

My view on the roster being revamped is that there are multiple players who Phil can acquire who would reasonably be expected to have a major positive impact on the team. He has to target those players and fashion a roster that fits great together. With this list its clear that there should be 2-3 players he can add that would bring increased value to the team over the players we have now.

Even outside of the most expensive guys you have the younger group like Butler, Monroe, Ajinca, Draymond Green, Danny Green, Cory Joseph, Khris Middleton etc. who are less expensive due to their years in the league but they offer great value.

They finished 16-5 last season once Tyson was finally healthy. 16 wins. aka more wins than this current team will win in its full season.

Trading Tyson was absolutely stupid. Any culture that allows a player that good to be unhappy is toxic in the extreme.

I think Amare was much more a factor in that late surge than Tyson. I dont know what was said or what turned Phil off so much about Tyson. The right thing would have been to cut Felton, and keep Tyson as an asset (Mosgov fetched 2 picks) but thats easy to call now. People HATED Tyson last year... and that trade was further spoiled by Calderon going from the starting PG and shooting 50% on a 50 win Mavs team to being totally useless except to serve as Brigg's whipping boy. He also used Tyson to trade into the draft. Early has been hurt and a disappointment (last night he looked OK) and Thanisis had a good year in the D league. I get its nothing earth shattering but you traded for a floor general (which he was) and he couldnt stay on the floor and two 2d round prospects who are helping to build a pipeline.

The trade has been a fail, no arguement there... Im just saying I can see why Phil did it and those reasons arent bad. Hindsight says Phil sold low and bought high.


Many were saying this then too.
It's a tough argument to sell that Amare was key in that 16-5 run. Then why did the team get much worse while we kept Amare but lost Tyson?

I think that Amare ranked $425 out of 430 in RPM.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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3/26/2015  4:24 PM
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:

Fans here said no way Donnie would give up half the team for Melo. We finally had a patient GM who would do the smart thing and sign Melo for cap space in the summer.

I hope you're right. Just saying, I've seen this movie before. Hoping for a twist ending this time!

Nothing is guaranteed but I would take that bet and believe that I would be 95 : 5.

I'm not a betting man, but I hope you are right. I really do.

¿ △ ?
Bonn1997
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3/26/2015  4:25 PM
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

So then is it a good thing Melo's knee is f'd up? We'd probably have a better record if he was healthy too, and maybe we'd miss out on a franchise player available in the draft
nixluva
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3/26/2015  4:51 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

So then is it a good thing Melo's knee is f'd up? We'd probably have a better record if he was healthy too, and maybe we'd miss out on a franchise player available in the draft

If Melo was fine perhaps Phil looks to pull Bargs and finds other ways to tank. It's hard to say. They weren't officially tanking but you got the idea they aren't unhappy with how it's working out.
If this is previous years maybe they make some trades just to be competitive rather than blow it up.

No matter how we got here it's better to be in line for a shot at the #1 overall pick when we actually have our pick.

knicks1248
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3/26/2015  4:54 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/26/2015  4:56 PM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:whats phils pitch going to be to FA

we think your a perfect fit for the triangle, although we have no core, no leader, a suspect coaching staff, and i'm dealing with a ton of health issues that keeps me away from the team, we feel that with our young 19 yr old rookie and melo, we'll be prime to make a run in 5 yrs.

what I can tell you for sure is that your minutes will be erratic as hell, the triangle takes at least a yr or 2 to truly grasp, and in the first 3 month of the season, if i see guys are not getting it, i will fire fish, dump a player or 2 or 3 for cap space and a 2nd rounder for 2016, because we have no picks as it stand now. So what do say, sounds like good plan Uh?

His pitch is we'll pay you more than any other team

lol..like we did amare


Funny but utter nonsense. The Knicks are going to put together a very convincing argument for a Player and his Agent to come to NY and be part of the core of this rebuild. He'll of course have money, but also he can be very clear in showing a player his role by showing video of other great players he's coached in the same role. Very few coaches can be that specific in showing the level of success a player can have in his system and way of doing things. They won't have to strain belief cuz they know he's done it over and over again.

Jackson took over a talented Lakers team and immediately produced results as he did in Chicago. In his first year in L.A., the Lakers went 67–15 during the regular season to top the league. Reaching the conference finals, they dispatched the Portland Trail Blazers in a tough seven-game series and then won the 2000 NBA championship by beating the Indiana Pacers.

Phil can't promise the same result he got with the Lakers in year one but he can say that they can have success in year one and even more in years to come. Any Free Agent won't ever have to worry about getting top dollar when they're a Knick. Paying Melo was a signal to any Free Agent that here in NY they won't be cheap when it comes time to pay. Agents are well aware of this and will steer their young FA's towards this market. Phil can sell them on teaming up with other young talents here. We'll have our Pick and money to add more than one Free Agent. That could lead to a possible 3 Studs plus Melo.


It's a pipe dream to think some video is going to convince gasol or aldridge to play here, phil is not the coach, and he has no interest in traveling or practicing with the team..

Fisher has already been branded a horrible coach with a cool demeanor that seems to except losses like it's all good. You don't lose close to 70 games and think your on anyone wish list. When you lose that many games, you lower your value as a head coach, players are not stupid, and they talk, just like melo ask Noah how was thibs as a coach.

The word "Rebuild" alone is enough to keep any decent vet far away from NY as possible. Paul Milsap, Monroe, mathews. Now if you have a championship coach or and elite coach, then maybe you can convince a player or two.

Remember melo didn't sign here because of phl or fisher, he signed here for the money and all the business opportunities he had going now, and in the future. You think he would have sign here for the money the bulls where giving him.

ES
smackeddog
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3/26/2015  4:55 PM
mreinman wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

this is like the guy who gets into a car accident for driving drunk and while getting an MRI they discover early stage of a brain tumor.

Lucky guy? He sure was.

And then instead of looking on the positive, that they caught it, instead he complains that his car is ruined

mreinman
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3/26/2015  4:59 PM
smackeddog wrote:
mreinman wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

this is like the guy who gets into a car accident for driving drunk and while getting an MRI they discover early stage of a brain tumor.

Lucky guy? He sure was.

And then instead of looking on the positive, that they caught it, instead he complains that his car is ruined

I love that we sucked and we may keep our top 4 pick.

It does not take away from the fact that we have a horrible looking coach and a president that is doing a questionable job at best.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Bonn1997
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3/26/2015  5:08 PM
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
mreinman wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

this is like the guy who gets into a car accident for driving drunk and while getting an MRI they discover early stage of a brain tumor.

Lucky guy? He sure was.

And then instead of looking on the positive, that they caught it, instead he complains that his car is ruined

I love that we sucked and we may keep our top 4 pick.

It does not take away from the fact that we have a horrible looking coach and a president that is doing a questionable job at best.


Exactly. The pick is nice but the rest of Phil's decisions are going to have to be a million times better than his decisions last off-season.
knickscity
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3/26/2015  5:13 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
mreinman wrote:
FistOfOakley wrote:well having tyson could've meant 18-54 or better/worse... in any case... we're in exactly the position that we need to be in right now...

this is like the guy who gets into a car accident for driving drunk and while getting an MRI they discover early stage of a brain tumor.

Lucky guy? He sure was.

And then instead of looking on the positive, that they caught it, instead he complains that his car is ruined

I love that we sucked and we may keep our top 4 pick.

It does not take away from the fact that we have a horrible looking coach and a president that is doing a questionable job at best.


Exactly. The pick is nice but the rest of Phil's decisions are going to have to be a million times better than his decisions last off-season.

Well, I guess the hope would be that Phil decisions were hampered by lack of cap space and bad contracts. Since those are gone now for the most part there should be no excuses made. get the job done.
nixluva
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3/26/2015  5:13 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:whats phils pitch going to be to FA

we think your a perfect fit for the triangle, although we have no core, no leader, a suspect coaching staff, and i'm dealing with a ton of health issues that keeps me away from the team, we feel that with our young 19 yr old rookie and melo, we'll be prime to make a run in 5 yrs.

what I can tell you for sure is that your minutes will be erratic as hell, the triangle takes at least a yr or 2 to truly grasp, and in the first 3 month of the season, if i see guys are not getting it, i will fire fish, dump a player or 2 or 3 for cap space and a 2nd rounder for 2016, because we have no picks as it stand now. So what do say, sounds like good plan Uh?

His pitch is we'll pay you more than any other team

lol..like we did amare


Funny but utter nonsense. The Knicks are going to put together a very convincing argument for a Player and his Agent to come to NY and be part of the core of this rebuild. He'll of course have money, but also he can be very clear in showing a player his role by showing video of other great players he's coached in the same role. Very few coaches can be that specific in showing the level of success a player can have in his system and way of doing things. They won't have to strain belief cuz they know he's done it over and over again.

Jackson took over a talented Lakers team and immediately produced results as he did in Chicago. In his first year in L.A., the Lakers went 67–15 during the regular season to top the league. Reaching the conference finals, they dispatched the Portland Trail Blazers in a tough seven-game series and then won the 2000 NBA championship by beating the Indiana Pacers.

Phil can't promise the same result he got with the Lakers in year one but he can say that they can have success in year one and even more in years to come. Any Free Agent won't ever have to worry about getting top dollar when they're a Knick. Paying Melo was a signal to any Free Agent that here in NY they won't be cheap when it comes time to pay. Agents are well aware of this and will steer their young FA's towards this market. Phil can sell them on teaming up with other young talents here. We'll have our Pick and money to add more than one Free Agent. That could lead to a possible 3 Studs plus Melo.


It's a pipe dream to think some video is going to convince gasol or aldridge to play here, phil is not the coach, and he has no interest in traveling or practicing with the team..

Fisher has already been branded a horrible coach with a cool demeanor that seems to except losses like it's all good. You don't lose close to 70 games and think your on anyone wish list. When you lose that many games, you lower your value as a head coach, players are not stupid, and they talk, just like melo ask Noah how was thibs as a coach.

The word "Rebuild" alone is enough to keep any decent vet far away from NY as possible. Paul Milsap, Monroe, mathews. Now if you have a championship coach or and elite coach, then maybe you can convince a player or two.

Remember melo didn't sign here because of phl or fisher, he signed here for the money and all the business opportunities he had going now, and in the future. You think he would have sign here for the money the bulls where giving him.



Why are you assuming that the only targets would be guys who are in great situations already? Seems to me that the most likely targets would be players who are not in great situations or are looking for a bigger stage. That is what Phil can offer players. Money, the biggest market, a clear role and plan to win that he's done before and is proven to work. All told it's a very compelling offer for a young free agent.

Players aren't going to be turned off by Fisher. I think you just want to project your own dislike of Phil and Fish on free agent who won't be thinking like you are. They don't blame Phil or Fish for this team failing. They know we don't have players. They being good players have egos and will believe they can be successful anywhere. There will be excitement after the draft and a renewed interest in the team following the draft and with being buyers in Free Agency.

Free Agent Win Share 48 List

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