nixluva wrote:The Melo thing was a one off situation IMO. The thing about Free Agents this summer is that as you say very few teams will have a ton of cash to spend and some teams will be prioritizing keeping their own Melo's type players. They're gonna have to pay big dollars to those guys much like Melo. Phil can put that kind of pressure on those teams to have to overspend. Every agent will be using the Knicks to get top dollar.

The game of musical chairs will inevitably leave some free agents with the Knicks as the best option. We may end up only having to pay big for one player at the $16.5 mil range. Even that may not actually happen if we draft OK4 or Towns then we'd only need a Center like Lopez or Ajinca and a SG like Danny Green or Matthews. So it's very possible Phil can accomplish his goals without spending crazy money on one player.

That would be a good outcome. Not saying it cannot happen, just skeptical. And we don't know yet about Melo being a one-time thing. We'll find out some more about fiscal management after this off-season.

And just so you understand where I'm coming from, I don't think the Knicks will be atrocious next season. They should at minimum have three bona fide starters and some good role players. They might even be able to go for seed 5-8 next year since the East still may be weak. But I never expect everything to go right and I've never been wrong about that. The convergence of factors that make a contender are highly improbable in the short term, but I will not be taking a dump on this team next season if they are a .500 club. That's a hell of a lot better than being the doormat of the league.

Even the birded players are gonna weigh their options. Think how Houston bowed out on the melo sweepstakes prior to melo's decision. Made no sense for them to clog up money waiting on a player that realistically isnt coming.

We dont have enough talent to even think about spending on one player, and picking off the scrap heap certainly is not gonna be the good look.

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I must say thanks for the perception adjustment. You finally recognize that you have to build a team that most importantly plays defense. I recall all summer you were actually stating the team could be average defensively as long as they have an elite offense.

That doesnt work, teams dont win titles like that, so kudos for finally recognizing that.

As far as the warriors are concerned, I'm not sure why they are the bar. Their team is beyond solid, but can that transfer to the playoffs where nearly every team out west is solid as well? Remains to be seen and until then they are just a regular season team.

The Knicks just need to stay the course and build through the draft, and not overpaying by wide margins just to get players. I do like Green and Butler, but on max deals. Thats what those guys so good...they can produce at high levels on cheaper deals.

I've always known the importance of Defense. I've been watching and playing basketball for 40 years and you think that fact would escape me. Sometimes the title teams are better offensively than they are defensively. There are far fewer #1 overall defensive teams that won the title than you might think and more teams that were skewed more towards offense than you might think.

2014	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2013	NBA	Miami Heat	   2nd  Offense 9th Defense
2012	NBA	Miami Heat	   8th  Offense 4th Defense
2011	NBA	Dallas Mavericks   8th  Offense 8th Defense
2010	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 11th Offense 4th Defense
2009	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 3rd  Offense 6th Defense
2008	NBA	Boston Celtics	   10th Offense 1st Defense
2007	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  5th  Offense 2nd Defense
2006	NBA	Miami Heat	   7th  Offense 9th Defense
2005	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2004	NBA	Detroit Pistons	   18th Offense 2nd Defense
2003	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2002	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 7th Defense
2001	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 21st Defense
2000	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 5th  Offense 1st Defense  

My point about offense earlier this year had to do with what the Knicks actually had in front of them. Meaning this team didn't really have any way of being a top defensive team at the time. Sometimes it makes more sense to go with what is your strength. You have to actually HAVE defensive talent at more than just a couple of spots. All we really had was Tyson and maybe Shump. Still i'm not now advocating for one way defense only players. I'm advocating having more 2 way players. There's a huge difference. We'd have just as little chance to win with defense only players because they aren't effective enough on the other end.

The mention of the Warriors was more of a metaphor for the way teams are trying to play today. You could also look at Houston or Atlanta. Teams that are looking to use the 3 or uptempo styles of play. In any event i'm advocating that the Knicks continue to move in the direction they're already moving. Which is to build a more balanced and traditional style of roster and offense that isn't predicated on 3pt'ers and the spread offense. There are good 2 way players that the Knicks can get in Free Agency and the Draft who could fit in the system we play.

Phil can't make the mistake of going with big plodders tho. We have to have bigs that can move on D but also score on the other end. This is entirely possible if Phil targets the right players and we get the right player in the draft. I actually think it makes more sense to pay for a Green or Butler than to just try and save money and bring in players that won't be as effective on D. We can already get one reasonably priced defender in the draft if we're fortunate. The Money spent on a good 2 way player in Free Agency would be well spent IMO. Then you can find role players like Ajinca who may be affordable. If we're willing to take a risk on Matthews he may be more affordable as well after his injury. Maybe he'd take a short deal to prove himself.

Playing ball for 40 yrs is great....But have you been playing winning basketball for 40 yrs. Just playing....But that's a lot of experience there. I'm probably around 30 yrs, unless you count the years after I started walking, shooting on those plastic hoops.

I agree with having bigs that are nimble enough to guard multiple positions and play both ends. I think the time of the big plotters has come and gone. Bigs now a days are very mobile, and some can dribble and shoot like a guard. The problem I have is passing on good talent, just because they don't fit the triangle system. I hope this system doesn't force us to miss out on talented players. Watching JR flourish in Cleveland didn't give me any warm feelings about the triangle. And I hope other FA's aren't thinking the same way. It appears the Triangle system fits Euro players like Shevd. But what about the athletic 2 way role players that jump out the gym and play off of instincts?

Let's not forget guys like Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, L-Odom, R-Artest, R-Harper and I'm sure many more flourished in the triangle.

knickscity wrote:Considering quite a few free agent that are desirable will either be bird players or restricted, I dont see how thats to the Knicks advantage. Say for instance if the Knicks offered Butler a contract....they would have that money tied up and likely missing out on other talent waiting to see if the Bulls match. thats ok if the team just needed two-three pieces. but the Knicks need way more than that.

Even the birded players are gonna weigh their options. Think how Houston bowed out on the melo sweepstakes prior to melo's decision. Made no sense for them to clog up money waiting on a player that realistically isnt coming.

We dont have enough talent to even think about spending on one player, and picking off the scrap heap certainly is not gonna be the good look.

It would still be worth Phil making the offer. Besides we'd have enough money to still sign another Free Agent while waiting, but the wait isn't that bad anyway.

Restricted free agent[edit]
A restricted free agent is subject to his current team's Right of First Refusal, meaning that the player can be signed to an offer sheet by another team, but his current club reserves the right to match the offer and keep the player. An offer sheet is a contract offer of at least two years made by another team to a restricted free agent.[10] The player's current club has three days to match the offer or loses the player to the new team; the CBA prior to 2011 allowed seven days.[27]

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Considering quite a few free agent that are desirable will either be bird players or restricted, I dont see how thats to the Knicks advantage. Say for instance if the Knicks offered Butler a contract....they would have that money tied up and likely missing out on other talent waiting to see if the Bulls match. thats ok if the team just needed two-three pieces. but the Knicks need way more than that.

Even the birded players are gonna weigh their options. Think how Houston bowed out on the melo sweepstakes prior to melo's decision. Made no sense for them to clog up money waiting on a player that realistically isnt coming.

We dont have enough talent to even think about spending on one player, and picking off the scrap heap certainly is not gonna be the good look.

I never expected players like Butler to be on the table. I think the list is smaller than some want it to be. The only tipping point is getting the #1 pick and our choice is perceived by free agents as compelling, i.e. having Okafor seeming like we have an Anthony Davis caliber talent to team up with.

Outside of that, selling FAs on the benefits of NYC is going to be tough. There are numerous reason to NOT come here. All things being equal doesn't apply in the Knicks case. This franchise is damaged goods and will scare away many free agents. We'll get someone though, just maybe not Plan A choices.

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Considering quite a few free agent that are desirable will either be bird players or restricted, I dont see how thats to the Knicks advantage. Say for instance if the Knicks offered Butler a contract....they would have that money tied up and likely missing out on other talent waiting to see if the Bulls match. thats ok if the team just needed two-three pieces. but the Knicks need way more than that.

Even the birded players are gonna weigh their options. Think how Houston bowed out on the melo sweepstakes prior to melo's decision. Made no sense for them to clog up money waiting on a player that realistically isnt coming.

We dont have enough talent to even think about spending on one player, and picking off the scrap heap certainly is not gonna be the good look.

I never expected players like Butler to be on the table. I think the list is smaller than some want it to be. The only tipping point is getting the #1 pick and our choice is perceived by free agents as compelling, i.e. having Okafor seeming like we have an Anthony Davis caliber talent to team up with.

Outside of that, selling FAs on the benefits of NYC is going to be tough. There are numerous reason to NOT come here. All things being equal doesn't apply in the Knicks case. This franchise is damaged goods and will scare away many free agents. We'll get someone though, just maybe not Plan A choices.

knickscity wrote:

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:Considering quite a few free agent that are desirable will either be bird players or restricted, I dont see how thats to the Knicks advantage. Say for instance if the Knicks offered Butler a contract....they would have that money tied up and likely missing out on other talent waiting to see if the Bulls match. thats ok if the team just needed two-three pieces. but the Knicks need way more than that.

Even the birded players are gonna weigh their options. Think how Houston bowed out on the melo sweepstakes prior to melo's decision. Made no sense for them to clog up money waiting on a player that realistically isnt coming.

We dont have enough talent to even think about spending on one player, and picking off the scrap heap certainly is not gonna be the good look.

I never expected players like Butler to be on the table. I think the list is smaller than some want it to be. The only tipping point is getting the #1 pick and our choice is perceived by free agents as compelling, i.e. having Okafor seeming like we have an Anthony Davis caliber talent to team up with.

Outside of that, selling FAs on the benefits of NYC is going to be tough. There are numerous reason to NOT come here. All things being equal doesn't apply in the Knicks case. This franchise is damaged goods and will scare away many free agents. We'll get someone though, just maybe not Plan A choices.

I'd hope so, but be honest. Do you think free agents...the quality ones will be thinking..."wow the Knicks got Okafor, let me sign there?" now dont get me wrong, the Knicks will improve the club with talent, it's impossible not to. But will thes signing be ones that are good or ones that were bottom of the barrels looking for paychecks.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Melo thing was a one off situation IMO. The thing about Free Agents this summer is that as you say very few teams will have a ton of cash to spend and some teams will be prioritizing keeping their own Melo's type players. They're gonna have to pay big dollars to those guys much like Melo. Phil can put that kind of pressure on those teams to have to overspend. Every agent will be using the Knicks to get top dollar.

The game of musical chairs will inevitably leave some free agents with the Knicks as the best option. We may end up only having to pay big for one player at the $16.5 mil range. Even that may not actually happen if we draft OK4 or Towns then we'd only need a Center like Lopez or Ajinca and a SG like Danny Green or Matthews. So it's very possible Phil can accomplish his goals without spending crazy money on one player.

That would be a good outcome. Not saying it cannot happen, just skeptical. And we don't know yet about Melo being a one-time thing. We'll find out some more about fiscal management after this off-season.

And just so you understand where I'm coming from, I don't think the Knicks will be atrocious next season. They should at minimum have three bona fide starters and some good role players. They might even be able to go for seed 5-8 next year since the East still may be weak. But I never expect everything to go right and I've never been wrong about that. The convergence of factors that make a contender are highly improbable in the short term, but I will not be taking a dump on this team next season if they are a .500 club. That's a hell of a lot better than being the doormat of the league.

It's going to take a bit of good fortune with the draft and Phil being very smart in how he goes about Free Agency. IMO the Draft is the Key to the whole thing. If that goes well it sets us up to spend less on one player in Free Agency and if Phil can spread that money around a bit it could really be a big turnaround next year. The way I look at this team is that you want a top 6 that is of starting caliber and solid role players after that. This is the mission Phil should be on.

The Knicks future top 6 players will come from Melo, the Draft, Free Agency and hopefully one or more of our young players developing and contributing. If i'm Phil that's what i'm hoping to accomplish this summer.

Same. Draft is certainly a potential franchise-changing blessing for us this summer. Hope it works out in our favor.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:Phil has no clout as a recruiter though. Let's not pretend his rings mean diddley to a free agent. And if selling a plan means talking triangles that isn't going to sway anyone either. Like I said, aside from having money Phil is at a deficit compared to other clubs as coming to the Knicks is just not most free agent's first choice. And Phil doesn't not tip the scales himself in any way whatsoever.

Getting the #1 or 2 pick is the only key differentiator going forward. Aside from that, a bare cupboard club with a terrible owner and a stumbling GM and coach is not an easy sales pitch.

How do you know Phil has no clout as a recruiter? Your making assumptions that you can't really back up with any evidence. You have no idea what Phil's presentation is going to be like and you have no idea how players feel about Phil and his rings and a boatload of cash and glory to be had in NY with other good players that Phil can bring in. Yes the Pick will be part of it, but also the plan which Phil hasn't told to you, so you have no way of knowing exactly what he'll say.

The one thing Phil has in his favor this summer is that he'll have one of the few teams that can offer significant money to Free Agents that already has an All Star in place and should be adding a top Draft Pick as well. We don't know how a players Agent will get in his ear about coming to NY with the prospect of the 2016-17 cap increasing. This could be the place for Free Agents to come and setup for their prime years. Phil, Melo, OK4/Towns could look really good to a Young Free Agent if that were to happen.

Money yes, but Melo is no draw, so the all-star pitch is not compelling. And some guys will NOT want to play with Melo at all. They play against him and some guys are not going to be impressed by his style of ball and will not want to align themselves with him.

Plus he's coming off surgery and it takes a leap of faith to assume he'll be healthy.

It is kind of a tough situation to be in if you're pitching this as rebuild focused on playing good fundamental basketball when your core player is the opposite of that.

Melo is not going to be much of a recruiting chip. Money is # 1 and going 1 or 2 in the draft is second. There's very little else to this story for free agents.

Phil has stumbled badly so this idea his magnetic presence or compelling vision will win over a free agent is sad. This is the same horse apples that's been sold about Phil since day one and it is stale as hell. He's done a poor job. He's digging himself out of a hole he helped dig deeper, so he has no pixie dust to sprinkle around.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:Phil has no clout as a recruiter though. Let's not pretend his rings mean diddley to a free agent. And if selling a plan means talking triangles that isn't going to sway anyone either. Like I said, aside from having money Phil is at a deficit compared to other clubs as coming to the Knicks is just not most free agent's first choice. And Phil doesn't not tip the scales himself in any way whatsoever.

Getting the #1 or 2 pick is the only key differentiator going forward. Aside from that, a bare cupboard club with a terrible owner and a stumbling GM and coach is not an easy sales pitch.

How do you know Phil has no clout as a recruiter? Your making assumptions that you can't really back up with any evidence. You have no idea what Phil's presentation is going to be like and you have no idea how players feel about Phil and his rings and a boatload of cash and glory to be had in NY with other good players that Phil can bring in. Yes the Pick will be part of it, but also the plan which Phil hasn't told to you, so you have no way of knowing exactly what he'll say.

The one thing Phil has in his favor this summer is that he'll have one of the few teams that can offer significant money to Free Agents that already has an All Star in place and should be adding a top Draft Pick as well. We don't know how a players Agent will get in his ear about coming to NY with the prospect of the 2016-17 cap increasing. This could be the place for Free Agents to come and setup for their prime years. Phil, Melo, OK4/Towns could look really good to a Young Free Agent if that were to happen.

Money yes, but Melo is no draw, so the all-star pitch is not compelling. And some guys will NOT want to play with Melo at all. They play against him and some guys are not going to be impressed by his style of ball and will not want to align themselves with him.

Plus he's coming off surgery and it takes a leap of faith to assume he'll be healthy.

It is kind of a tough situation to be in if you're pitching this as rebuild focused on playing good fundamental basketball when your core player is the opposite of that.

Melo is not going to be much of a recruiting chip. Money is # 1 and going 1 or 2 in the draft is second. There's very little else to this story for free agents.

Phil has stumbled badly so this idea his magnetic presence or compelling vision will win over a free agent is sad. This is the same horse apples that's been sold about Phil since day one and it is stale as hell. He's done a poor job. He's digging himself out of a hole he helped dig deeper, so he has no pixie dust to sprinkle around.

You're not talking like a player. You're talking like a fan. Players all believe they can make it back from surgery and they respect Melo as a player more than fans do. You forget that Melo likely knows and is friends with man of the players in the league. They don't think like fans do about each other. They respect each others game and they know Melo is a top player.

Melo will still be a recruiting asset. It's silly to think players would quickly disregard him when teams were just trying to sign him to their teams this summer. Like I said you're thinking like a fan and Melo hater and not like other NBA players actually think.

The very same players realize that Phil cleared house to have money for them. Their agents certainly understand what has happened. You really are looking at this like a complete novice to how players and agents really think. No matter how you try to spin this negatively, the truth is that the Knicks will be one of the few buyers this summer and having lots of starting spots and playing time to offer along with money is actually a good thing for some of these free agents. These agents know that the Knicks won't be cheap when it comes to that next contract and that matters. Maybe some other franchise would have 2nd thoughts but these agents know the Knicks will pay up to keep their players if they're winning.

So now I'm a novice. Nix, my track record of seeing into the reality of a situation has been far more accurate than yours, so maybe you should temper the assumptions about your expert opinion.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:Phil has no clout as a recruiter though. Let's not pretend his rings mean diddley to a free agent. And if selling a plan means talking triangles that isn't going to sway anyone either. Like I said, aside from having money Phil is at a deficit compared to other clubs as coming to the Knicks is just not most free agent's first choice. And Phil doesn't not tip the scales himself in any way whatsoever.

Getting the #1 or 2 pick is the only key differentiator going forward. Aside from that, a bare cupboard club with a terrible owner and a stumbling GM and coach is not an easy sales pitch.

How do you know Phil has no clout as a recruiter? Your making assumptions that you can't really back up with any evidence. You have no idea what Phil's presentation is going to be like and you have no idea how players feel about Phil and his rings and a boatload of cash and glory to be had in NY with other good players that Phil can bring in. Yes the Pick will be part of it, but also the plan which Phil hasn't told to you, so you have no way of knowing exactly what he'll say.

The one thing Phil has in his favor this summer is that he'll have one of the few teams that can offer significant money to Free Agents that already has an All Star in place and should be adding a top Draft Pick as well. We don't know how a players Agent will get in his ear about coming to NY with the prospect of the 2016-17 cap increasing. This could be the place for Free Agents to come and setup for their prime years. Phil, Melo, OK4/Towns could look really good to a Young Free Agent if that were to happen.

Money yes, but Melo is no draw, so the all-star pitch is not compelling. And some guys will NOT want to play with Melo at all. They play against him and some guys are not going to be impressed by his style of ball and will not want to align themselves with him.

Plus he's coming off surgery and it takes a leap of faith to assume he'll be healthy.

It is kind of a tough situation to be in if you're pitching this as rebuild focused on playing good fundamental basketball when your core player is the opposite of that.

Melo is not going to be much of a recruiting chip. Money is # 1 and going 1 or 2 in the draft is second. There's very little else to this story for free agents.

Phil has stumbled badly so this idea his magnetic presence or compelling vision will win over a free agent is sad. This is the same horse apples that's been sold about Phil since day one and it is stale as hell. He's done a poor job. He's digging himself out of a hole he helped dig deeper, so he has no pixie dust to sprinkle around.

You're not talking like a player. You're talking like a fan. Players all believe they can make it back from surgery and they respect Melo as a player more than fans do. You forget that Melo likely knows and is friends with man of the players in the league. They don't think like fans do about each other. They respect each others game and they know Melo is a top player.

Melo will still be a recruiting asset. It's silly to think players would quickly disregard him when teams were just trying to sign him to their teams this summer. Like I said you're thinking like a fan and Melo hater and not like other NBA players actually think.

The very same players realize that Phil cleared house to have money for them. Their agents certainly understand what has happened. You really are looking at this like a complete novice to how players and agents really think. No matter how you try to spin this negatively, the truth is that the Knicks will be one of the few buyers this summer and having lots of starting spots and playing time to offer along with money is actually a good thing for some of these free agents. These agents know that the Knicks won't be cheap when it comes to that next contract and that matters. Maybe some other franchise would have 2nd thoughts but these agents know the Knicks will pay up to keep their players if they're winning.

So now I'm a novice. Nix, my track record of seeing into the reality of a situation has been far more accurate than yours, so maybe you should temper the assumptions about your expert opinion.

I'm sorry if you've been successful guessing this dysfunctional franchise would fail and now you think your some kind of genius, but that doesn't make you Nostradamus. Every situation is different and being right about something doesn't mean you'll always be right nor does it prove your theory was correct. There are so many variables that you can never really be sure it wasn't just coincidence. That's why you have to provide a detailed explanation of your reasoning. Just stay negative when it comes to the Knicks and a monkey could look like a genius. Proves nothing by itself. Besides we don't just talk about season predictions here. There's a vast range of topics we talk about between the start and end of each season and I in fact am not always wrong about everything we talk about, as some like to keep stating. If that makes you feel better to just throw that out there then fine, but it doesn't address anything I just wrote or prove your point.

I just explained to you why I think you were wrong in your assumptions. You aren't thinking like a player or agent. You're thinking like a fan and it's obvious. If you can refute what I said just do so. No need to puff out your chest about past predictions. Tell us why what I said isn't closer to the truth. What did I say that isn't a more accurate depiction of how Players and Agents think and the Knicks as a franchise when it comes to free agents?

OK Nix, you're a visionary and I'm nothing but a hater. Good night