WaltLongmire wrote:

dk7th wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Seems like the David Lee in his "prime" would have been a good defender according to certain statistical metrics.

David Lee was many things as a player, but my eyes told me he was not a good defender in the way most folks use the word "defense."

Bargnani, a poor rebounder, and a seemingly indifferent help defender, is nonetheless a decent 1/1 defender. I would hope there are metrics which reflect this observation, since there are a number of visible variables which seem to go into the concept of "defense" in this sport.

walt the drpm http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/6 is a team stat based on how well a player plays within the context of team defense.

since basketball is a team game then you have to look at team defense and whether the individual is doing his share to be effective. it isn't five one on one games out there, moreover the introduction of zone defenses into the nba will tend to reinforce further the notion of this team defense statistic. lastly, i would have you reflect on how the 2008 celtics played defense against the lakers in the finals. it is a very good example of how a group of players, few of whom are considered elite one on one defenders, were able to stifle the offense of the opposing team and a prime bryant. "funneling" players into certain parts of the court was a tactic coach rivers used to great effect.

there is also the issue of sheer athleticism compared with defensive court vision, instincts. and then of course coaching.

if you study the rankings from both this season and last season you will see that kevin love more than holds his own. in fact he is ranked higher than david west and lamarcus aldridge. as this is highly counter-intuitive i hope what i laid out above gives this result some credibility.

I get dizzy with some of the stats going around, even though I understand their value (More as an analytical tool, than a predictive one, I have to say). I can also see how the introduction of the zone D could change things a bit, although even with man/man Ds you have switching and weak side help when the perimeter is penetrated.

I'm a historian type of guy, though, not a math geek, and I'll let Benjamin Disraeli, a greater man than any of us (never did see a BB game, though) answer for me here on this general topic:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics

well the direction analytics is going is in fact towards use as a predictive tool, otherwise the notion of scouting and team-building using analytics would be useless. whereas in the past statistics were used to illuminate what we empirically gather, it now seems clear that statistics are being used to support decisions.

if you recall there was much talk last season about how miami was not nearly as good on defense as the year prior. while the statistics certainly confirm what was being mentioned by broadcasters and color commentators, the stats for these things were already being assembled for use, making them a decent predictive tool. and sure enough the spurs embarrassed the heat real bad.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

aren't the scouts themselves well-versed in advanced analytics?

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

i understand the skepticism-- in fact the more variables you fold in to a formula the more pessimistic i become. however, it is the simpler formulae i like to use. true shooting percentage is one of them. though the real plus/minus is more complex, it has undergone a number of adjustments/permutations over the last couple of seasons, rendering it a pretty good tool to use in player evaluation and predictive power. nonetheless it remains far simpler and more elegant than the PER rating, which is an absolute nightmare.