dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:Kerr here would be miles better and fish in GS would make them a bit worse.

Kerr was a much much better and smarter player.

Really. You think Kerr has this team winning more? What do you think his record would be? The Knicks essentially are running their summer league squad plus Calderon out there every night. (Opps, forgot about Amundson and Thomas).

Small insight to take away when it comes to Kerr

Although Phil made the Mavs trade before hiring Kerr

Maybe he would have been the voice of veto

As Phil contemplated the move, maybe he would have

Valued Tyson differently of figured his role

Would hold greater value under his tutelage

Or the voice of veto when Phil

Contemplated moving Shump with Smith for a 2019 2nd pick

Keep in mind Kerr was one of the leading voices

In the Warriors organization against trading Klay Thompson for Kevin Love

So from a forward thinking mindset one could deduce that

Maybe Kerr sees the game from a much deeper perspective than what's on the surface

Of course his Coaching proof will surface in the Playoff pudding

kerr sees dolan and says "uhhh.... yeah-- no. just no."

he looked at the msg gig and didn't buy into the whole "culture change" sales job. good for kerr!!! you're right: he ain't stupid.

Well yeah we know most certainly why he's not here

There was some side bar discussion would his Odometer read differently than Fisher's if hired

Matter of fact probably the tipping scale on his choice

Besides the contract offer was when he asked Phil what his plans to rebuild were

Phil: "Hey Kerr I 'm thinking of having Melo back at 5yrs $129mil

If you take a humble contract offer from me 3yrs $12mil I think I can talk him into taking one too

Kerr: "Is that your Plan A rebuild, I heard The Bulls are frontrunners to sign him

Will you think about a S&T with them

Phil: "No, why don't you want to coach him"

Kerr: "Phil you know I was once a GM and trying to hang on to something that's dying won't work

So you're going to Max out Melo on a rebuild"

Phil: "Well yeah my Autonomy says so, I'm Phil and Triangle Over Everything"

Kerr: "Peace, Love, and Hair Grease, I'm Going Going Back Back To Cali Cali"

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Except Melo is no David Robinson and I don't think there is a Tim Duncan in this draft.

And the Spurs were really bad because Robinson was out. We're really bad even with Melo on the court. They basically added Duncan to a team that would have been around .600 if healthy. We're adding a lottery pick to a the worst team in the league.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Except Melo is no David Robinson and I don't think there is a Tim Duncan in this draft.

And the Spurs were really bad because Robinson was out. We're really bad even with Melo on the court. They basically added Duncan to a team that would have been around .600 if healthy. We're adding a lottery pick to a the worst team in the league.

Are you saying that there won't be changes in the offseason? I am not sure about you but I have no idea what next years team will look like. Maybe after the trade deadline I will have a better idea about Calderon and Hardaway. I don't think the Knicks will be throwing their 2014 summer league squad out every night with an occasional appearance from Melo.

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The problem I have with this and many other similar articles is the pessimistic tone.

The problem, nixluva, that you seem to ignore, even when it's shoved right in your face, is that this team and franchise needs a direction.

Philly has a direction. Tank and keep taking, amass assets, try to push forward their young talent and then try to get them to gel together while still on their rookie deals. Will it work? Will it not? Either way, it's a direction, the entire franchise is moving in the same direction from top to bottom. At least Philly fans can say they can see a plan in place that makes sense from a timetable and asset standpoint and how the league is structured in terms of the draft and free agency.

New York has NO DIRECTION. Tanking and rebuilding from the ground up is one thing. Trying to make a playoff push is another. Picking neither or picking one then ending up with the other by coincidence is not a plan. Melo makes this a treadmill team. The Chandler trade, even if it worked, would have made this a treadmill team. A team stuck on the fringes of that 8th playoff spot or that dreaded 9th spot with no real chance to get better.

You call people too negative but this is clearly a negative situation. Not making a choice is making a choice, often it's worse than picking Direction A or Direction B. At least in one of those cases, you have momentum and a trajectory and something to sell to your fans.

Tanking because your effort to make a push blew up in your face is not a sign of an organization that has a cohesive plan in place.

Nothing you conjure up fixes the timetable vs development vs assets problem nixluva. In order to build a roster around Melo, you need to use the draft. With no 2016 pick, and with picks actually needing time to develop, your "help" for Melo will arrive, if at all, when his contract ends and when he's out of what's left of his prime playing ability/years. Every other instance of getting him help on this spiraling franchise will likely mean a free agent overpay, which will doom the roster to the same kind of problems it's had for the last 15 years. Do you think the Dallas Cowboys really wanted to trade their only marketable and franchise player in Herschel Walker? They did it because of the assets vs development vs timetable issue.

You want to put a "label" on a type of tone? Well here it is son. You ignore things you don't want to hear or don't like. You don't fully understand the way the cap works or even consider what other people have to say unless it lines up to your viewpoint. You don't own any of the things you've said before previously. Then you talk down to everyone like they are stupid because they remember your needling hack job predictions. Then you blame everyone else when they have the audacity to have opinions of their own. I know an entire group of our population who act just like you. They are called women. The problem you have is you are in a room full of men, who think like men, and you act like a woman.

We have direction. Plan A: tinker with the roster and try to make the playoffs, then try to recruit a top FA like Gasol. Didn't work out so we're onto Plan B (clear salary, tank for a top pick, build in piece meal fashion). Use the remains of this system to see which players can play the triangle and be our bench for next year. Is that really hard to understand? Sixers have no direction- they tank, draft, then want to trade the players they just drafted, so they can tank more and draft. That ain't direction.

and higher a mediocre player as a mediocre coach

So "tanking and drafting" counts as a direction for us but not for Philly? Regarding "trading drafted players," I don't think any team does that more than us.

Not to mention that Plan A was a complete, unmitigated disaster. Phil's tinkering that was supposed to make this a playoff team turned a 37-win team into a team on pace to win 10 games.

It happens- our problem in the past has always been never accepting that the plan has failed, and never having a contingency plan. A lot of GMing is luck- not everything work out. The Hawks planned to tank last year, the Craptors were ready to have a fire sale, then they started winning by accident. It's not just what course you plot, but how you change course too.

This is pathetic, the kinds of posts on here- for years its been "wwwaaaaaaah! We never rebuild, we never tank" Now we're doing that and most of you can't handle it.

paying one 30-year old employee 124 million is not rebuilding.

Are you all taking stupid pills today?! What don't you understand about the concept 'plan B'?! There was a plan A (compete this season), it didn't work out, now we're onto plan b (tank). At this point moving Melo for nothing is counter productive- no halfway decent free agent would sign for a Knicks team with no one on it. Melo plus the 1st round pick makes us more attractive whether you acknowledge it or not. If we had let Melo walk for nothing, we would not sign any good free agents this offseason, then we would have stunk it up again, but this time we'd have no pick in 2016.

Again no free agents would want to sign with us, so that takes us through to 2017, at which point every team gets cap space due to the cap expansion making it even tougher to get any free agents to come here. So now we're onto 2018. You may as well re-sign Melo, because by that point we have a new cba and possible amnesty clause.

MS wrote:Phil has been terrible.

You don't give the no trade clause and you don't trade expiring contracts for older point guards and get zero assets back.

Chandler had something to prove this season, why would you ever trade him in a contract year. The players we got back cost us 7MM of cap space the next two years for a point that sucks.

I don't love Felton, but again his contract was up, see what you can do early in the season and then move everyone by the deadline. Teams panic midway through the season. Guys get released that can be picked up.

I'm always a little skeptical of guys that think they are smarter than everyone else. Again, Fisher was not a hot prospect so you don't make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league. Who gives out a five year deal?

We got back Larkin and 2 2nd rounders. If we'd gotten a late first we would have picked Early (we had him at 24).

The no trade clause is a courtesy- if we'd turned around and traded Melo to the Sixers or the Twolves, no big agent or free agent would deal with us again

Feltons contract was not up- he had another 4.5mil on the books, so taking on Calderon only added $3mil this offseason. We may still be able to move Calderon too

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. Phil is gonna find out how the players of the NBA view him in about six months.

That's actually a little ridiculous to say though. You think that if certain players don't come to the Knicks then they view Phil in a certain way?? There will be many teams trying to get the same free agents we'll be trying to get so if they choose another team instead of us can mean many many different things. There's some top notch organizations out there that players choose to go to because of all sorts of different reasons like what city or state they want to live in or because they'd be closer to family or for what players are on that team that they want to play with or who the coach is or how much money they can be paid or many other reasons so i think it's unfair to say if a player doesn't come to the Knicks that Phil didn't do a good job to get that player to come which is exactly what a lot of writers and others will say. Especially that A-Hole Isola aka asshola.

He will get players to come if he grossly overpays.

You can get players to wanna come here when you turned a 37 win team into a 5 win team and you are running an offensive system that is complicated and outdated that no other teams have any interest in running.

Also, Carmelo does not really get anyone excited either since he needs to get his.

nixluva wrote:So tiring reading the Negative Nancy Bitch Brigade spin everything towards Doom and Gloom.

Phil did some good and made some mistakes. Phil's most important decisions are ahead of him. Contrary to the negative spinners Phil turned the Tyson trade into some young prospects. Larkin, Early, Thanasis, Labeyrie and Acy. Then he added Galloway and Wear as prospects. We have our Pick and cap space. Phil has 4 Trade Exceptions. Only 4 guaranteed contracts for next year and we still haven't reached the Trade Deadline. We don't know how Phil will use his cap space in Free Agency but it's good to have money to spend.

The Knicks still have their 1st rd picks in 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 etc. If Phil can manage to replenish the 2016 and get some 2nd rounders it will set things straight again. This team's future is unwritten but that doesn't mean it's doomed to failure.

so you-- our resident visionary-- believe that drafting-- and developing-- players over the course of carmelo anthony's remaining career here will yield some sort of consistent contender, or, form a team that has a puncher's chance of getting to, say... the conference finals in the next several seasons? that's putting a pretty big burden on carmelo anthony, to say the least: remaining healthy, changing his game to conform to the triangle, providing leadership, being the cornerstone....

anyway, relevance.... second round competitiveness (we haven't seen that yet), conference finals appearances (same), finals appearances (what are those?)... is that what you see being "written?"

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:So tiring reading the Negative Nancy Bitch Brigade spin everything towards Doom and Gloom.

Phil did some good and made some mistakes. Phil's most important decisions are ahead of him. Contrary to the negative spinners Phil turned the Tyson trade into some young prospects. Larkin, Early, Thanasis, Labeyrie and Acy. Then he added Galloway and Wear as prospects. We have our Pick and cap space. Phil has 4 Trade Exceptions. Only 4 guaranteed contracts for next year and we still haven't reached the Trade Deadline. We don't know how Phil will use his cap space in Free Agency but it's good to have money to spend.

The Knicks still have their 1st rd picks in 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 etc. If Phil can manage to replenish the 2016 and get some 2nd rounders it will set things straight again. This team's future is unwritten but that doesn't mean it's doomed to failure.

So if Phil can have a do over, does he make the chandler trade?

Why talk about water under the bridge? This is a new day and none of the things in the previous plan are important anymore. The Tyson trade did in fact bring back prospects. Early, Thanasis, Larkin, Labeyrie and Acy. Let's just see how those players develop. Who knows how they turn out. It's only 41 games in.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:So tiring reading the Negative Nancy Bitch Brigade spin everything towards Doom and Gloom.

Phil did some good and made some mistakes. Phil's most important decisions are ahead of him. Contrary to the negative spinners Phil turned the Tyson trade into some young prospects. Larkin, Early, Thanasis, Labeyrie and Acy. Then he added Galloway and Wear as prospects. We have our Pick and cap space. Phil has 4 Trade Exceptions. Only 4 guaranteed contracts for next year and we still haven't reached the Trade Deadline. We don't know how Phil will use his cap space in Free Agency but it's good to have money to spend.

The Knicks still have their 1st rd picks in 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 etc. If Phil can manage to replenish the 2016 and get some 2nd rounders it will set things straight again. This team's future is unwritten but that doesn't mean it's doomed to failure.

so you-- our resident visionary-- believe that drafting-- and developing-- players over the course of carmelo anthony's remaining career here will yield some sort of consistent contender, or, form a team that has a puncher's chance of getting to, say... the conference finals in the next several seasons? that's putting a pretty big burden on carmelo anthony, to say the least: remaining healthy, changing his game to conform to the triangle, providing leadership, being the cornerstone....

anyway, relevance.... second round competitiveness (we haven't seen that yet), conference finals appearances (same), finals appearances (what are those?)... is that what you see being "written?"

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:So tiring reading the Negative Nancy Bitch Brigade spin everything towards Doom and Gloom.

Phil did some good and made some mistakes. Phil's most important decisions are ahead of him. Contrary to the negative spinners Phil turned the Tyson trade into some young prospects. Larkin, Early, Thanasis, Labeyrie and Acy. Then he added Galloway and Wear as prospects. We have our Pick and cap space. Phil has 4 Trade Exceptions. Only 4 guaranteed contracts for next year and we still haven't reached the Trade Deadline. We don't know how Phil will use his cap space in Free Agency but it's good to have money to spend.

The Knicks still have their 1st rd picks in 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 etc. If Phil can manage to replenish the 2016 and get some 2nd rounders it will set things straight again. This team's future is unwritten but that doesn't mean it's doomed to failure.

so you-- our resident visionary-- believe that drafting-- and developing-- players over the course of carmelo anthony's remaining career here will yield some sort of consistent contender, or, form a team that has a puncher's chance of getting to, say... the conference finals in the next several seasons? that's putting a pretty big burden on carmelo anthony, to say the least: remaining healthy, changing his game to conform to the triangle, providing leadership, being the cornerstone....

anyway, relevance.... second round competitiveness (we haven't seen that yet), conference finals appearances (same), finals appearances (what are those?)... is that what you see being "written?"

Isn't the goal to become successful while creating something sustainable? Grunwald put together a roster that won 54 games but age and health issues derailed that. It seems like what Phil is trying to do is create something that will last more than a year or two. The Knicks have three rookies, two second year players, their first round pick and will have cap space and roster spots. It hasn't been pretty but if you asked me to make a list of guys that I thought needed to be moved out after last year Iman, JR, and Tyson would be at the top.

Good post Crush. Phil pushed the reset button but he had already collected some youth to develop. We have to allow some time for them to actually be developed. Then adding a top draft pick would further enhance the long term prospects for the franchise. Too many people are focused on the presence of Melo and ignoring the fact that the team is actually getting younger.

Starting with the draft and then Free Agency the hope is to improve the talent level and establish a new core to the team.