nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it doesn't matter how fast Phil can put a contender together. Phil has to make sure that he finds the type of core talent that can be built upon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some metrics guy to figure out who the top talents are. Initially Phil has to improve the top talent on the team. IMO this is what Phil has to focus on this summer. After you have your very rare top talent then the metrics stuff has more real value. You don't need metrics to figure out that Tim Duncan is a franchise talent. It's the role players you look to find after that where you need as much insight as possible to find the right players. I feel that Phil will use every means necessary to find the best fits for this team. Just going by his past interest in wisdom and new ways of looking at things, it seems to me that Phil would have high interest in Metrics and anything else that can give him an edge.

You do need some metrics in play

Take for instance J.R. Smith is more talented

Than say 85% of the players in this league

But metrics will tell how much of a Devil he is in misusing abusing the talent

How much he kills on court team chemistry

Metric analytics will get you Draymond Green instead of J.R. Smith

It will get you Paul Gasol instead of Amar'e Stoudemire

Conversely it can get you into deep deep deep deep deep deep deep deep deep deep du-du

Like getting Jose Calderon instead of Andre Miller

I'm not opposed to metrics at all. I never said it's of no value. It's funny how ready guys are to jump on anything I say. Even if I write that I think "Phil will use every means necessary to find the best fits for this team. Just going by his past interest in wisdom and new ways of looking at things, it seems to me that Phil would have high interest in Metrics and anything else that can give him an edge." It's getting so that it doesn't matter what I write.

All i'm saying is that it's one tool but it's not everything in terms of building a team. It won't take much for Phil to add metrics to his process, but what he knows and understands about the game is of high value and just as much of a key factor for this team and how he's going to build it. His practical experience on how teams are built, how players mesh and are developed will matter even more IMO.

I didn't have major qualms about the bulk of what you wrote

Except the very first sentence

Yeah it does matter how quickly Phil can

Put things together whether he chooses to use metrics or not

You're plea bargaining for a lesser sentence in advance

Should Phil not produce results 3-4yrs into the gig

That's a far cry from where you were at season's begin

If he has all this insight and basketball acumen you claim he has, shouldn't take long

He's already shown us how offensive he is first yr

He can only go up we should assume but anybody could have been hired to produce these results

Including you and you'd probably deserve the $60mil+ from Dolan

For how much you beg off and apologize for failures within this organization

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Nalod wrote:Maybe the question is also why do so many have so little faith?
5-30 sucks. Few saw this coming.
Change of culture is a lot of things. When you go to boot camp in the military they break you down, then put you back together.
Faith is defined as "an unsubstantiated belief". No basis historically to say phil as an exec will transform the team because he has never done it. At the same time one can say that about a lot of GM's who we could have hired. Masai in Toronto had assets and has picks.

The contrarian side of thinks a man with different thinking might succeed instead of following a similar matrix. If this is the case in NY, then its a risk. To follow the media's short sighted anger technique and supplant it as an original thought makes some of you look really bandwagon jumpers who are piling on the 5-30 hate feast.

I have no basis but faith in Phil. Zen philosophy when applied to business is actually a very effective tool. it takes out wishful thinking and the emotional baggage of what has already transpired.

Really, if there is a change in policy and cultural change then it really does not matter what has transpired previously. If Dolan is truly out of the decision process then one can say this will effect the future.

Winning now is not possible. Tickets might be sold and if one was gullible, its to think Phil would have effected great change right away. True there is a starphuch aspect to his hiring. This sells tickets.

Was there another way? Always. IN the face of a failure the logical conclusion is "well anything would have been better than 5-30!"

Effective cultural change? 35 games to conclude this? It takes years. No patience in the Mecca.

Good post.

really? this post is like a bad singer on auto-tune. not to mention unintelligible. maybe you can translate what is being said here.

Yea I wasn't going to make an effort to understand it but if someone else wants to take a shot to ahead. I'm all ears

Glub glub faith based headlights coming, Raps craps tooty toot too. Others say what, Keanu Reeves you a hater. Believe cuz I do and oh snap Zen cool, I'm a business analyst. Yo change like Dylan, I mean Dolan, the future! Losing sucks, mama cry, starphucker! Bling! Crossroads? Train coming, WTF?!

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it doesn't matter how fast Phil can put a contender together. Phil has to make sure that he finds the type of core talent that can be built upon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some metrics guy to figure out who the top talents are. Initially Phil has to improve the top talent on the team. IMO this is what Phil has to focus on this summer. After you have your very rare top talent then the metrics stuff has more real value. You don't need metrics to figure out that Tim Duncan is a franchise talent. It's the role players you look to find after that where you need as much insight as possible to find the right players. I feel that Phil will use every means necessary to find the best fits for this team. Just going by his past interest in wisdom and new ways of looking at things, it seems to me that Phil would have high interest in Metrics and anything else that can give him an edge.

Hmmm. I guess you just figured out a way to save 28 NBA teams millions of dollars!
(The magnificent Magic and Bobcats are the only teams without metrics departments now)
If everything the metrics could tell us was so obvious, people would have realized this wasn't a .600+ team immediately. And the Calderon trade would have never happened. And Melo wouldn't have the largest basketball contract on the planet.
There's no such thing as "top talent" that you don't need the metrics for. The metrics will make it clearer than the eyeball test as to which "top talent" (like Melo) is just being overrated and which (like Harden when he was an FA) is being overlooked.

Did you only read the 1st sentences and post or did you not read that I have nothing against Metrics and that I believe Phil would have a high interest in using metrics?

Look it's a part of the overall process and i'm not saying it doesn't have value. If you have a player who is clearly a 2 way player with a high IQ, who excels in key areas and game situations, you don't need a damn chart to figure out that he's a great player. Where the hell were you and the metrics guys when teams were being built into all time great teams before any serious consideration of metrics. How many championships were built on metrics verses the old fashioned way? If you could break it down for us what percentage of the credit for a teams success is based on metrics i'd love to see that info. It's a tool but let's not overstate it's value either.

knickscity wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it doesn't matter how fast Phil can put a contender together. Phil has to make sure that he finds the type of core talent that can be built upon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some metrics guy to figure out who the top talents are. Initially Phil has to improve the top talent on the team. IMO this is what Phil has to focus on this summer. After you have your very rare top talent then the metrics stuff has more real value. You don't need metrics to figure out that Tim Duncan is a franchise talent. It's the role players you look to find after that where you need as much insight as possible to find the right players. I feel that Phil will use every means necessary to find the best fits for this team. Just going by his past interest in wisdom and new ways of looking at things, it seems to me that Phil would have high interest in Metrics and anything else that can give him an edge.

Hmmm. I guess you just figured out a way to save 28 NBA teams millions of dollars!
(The magnificent Magic and Bobcats are the only teams without metrics departments now)
If everything the metrics could tell us was so obvious, people would have realized this wasn't a .600+ team immediately. And the Calderon trade would have never happened. And Melo wouldn't have the largest basketball contract on the planet.
There's no such thing as "top talent" that you don't need the metrics for. The metrics will make it clearer than the eyeball test as to which "top talent" (like Melo) is just being overrated and which (like Harden when he was an FA) is being overlooked.

Did you only read the 1st sentences and post or did you not read that I have nothing against Metrics and that I believe Phil would have a high interest in using metrics?

Look it's a part of the overall process and i'm not saying it doesn't have value. If you have a player who is clearly a 2 way player with a high IQ, who excels in key areas and game situations, you don't need a damn chart to figure out that he's a great player. Where the hell were you and the metrics guys when teams were being built into all time great teams before any serious consideration of metrics. How many championships were built on metrics verses the old fashioned way? If you could break it down for us what percentage of the credit for a teams success is based on metrics i'd love to see that info. It's a tool but let's not overstate it's value either.

I apologize that I misinterpreted your earlier remarks.
I consider your latter questions about championships being built before metrics a bit ridiculous though. Before cars were invented, of course people still were able to travel. They just did it much less effectively.

That above post shows he isnt a fan of metrics. The irony of it, is coaches have ALWAYS had ways to measure how indivudal player were doing, stats and record keeping was always around, just certain aspects wernt recorded, but certainly were in use.

By nix logic, teams wernt blocking shots before the nba started recording them.

there is sooooooo much more data available now and many more people employed to compile data.

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it doesn't matter how fast Phil can put a contender together. Phil has to make sure that he finds the type of core talent that can be built upon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some metrics guy to figure out who the top talents are. Initially Phil has to improve the top talent on the team. IMO this is what Phil has to focus on this summer. After you have your very rare top talent then the metrics stuff has more real value. You don't need metrics to figure out that Tim Duncan is a franchise talent. It's the role players you look to find after that where you need as much insight as possible to find the right players. I feel that Phil will use every means necessary to find the best fits for this team. Just going by his past interest in wisdom and new ways of looking at things, it seems to me that Phil would have high interest in Metrics and anything else that can give him an edge.

Hmmm. I guess you just figured out a way to save 28 NBA teams millions of dollars!
(The magnificent Magic and Bobcats are the only teams without metrics departments now)
If everything the metrics could tell us was so obvious, people would have realized this wasn't a .600+ team immediately. And the Calderon trade would have never happened. And Melo wouldn't have the largest basketball contract on the planet.
There's no such thing as "top talent" that you don't need the metrics for. The metrics will make it clearer than the eyeball test as to which "top talent" (like Melo) is just being overrated and which (like Harden when he was an FA) is being overlooked.

Did you only read the 1st sentences and post or did you not read that I have nothing against Metrics and that I believe Phil would have a high interest in using metrics?

Look it's a part of the overall process and i'm not saying it doesn't have value. If you have a player who is clearly a 2 way player with a high IQ, who excels in key areas and game situations, you don't need a damn chart to figure out that he's a great player. Where the hell were you and the metrics guys when teams were being built into all time great teams before any serious consideration of metrics. How many championships were built on metrics verses the old fashioned way? If you could break it down for us what percentage of the credit for a teams success is based on metrics i'd love to see that info. It's a tool but let's not overstate it's value either.

I apologize that I misinterpreted your earlier remarks.
I consider your latter questions about championships being built before metrics a bit ridiculous though. Before cars were invented, of course people still were able to travel. They just did it much less effectively.

That above post shows he isnt a fan of metrics. The irony of it, is coaches have ALWAYS had ways to measure how indivudal player were doing, stats and record keeping was always around, just certain aspects wernt recorded, but certainly were in use.

By nix logic, teams wernt blocking shots before the nba started recording them.

there is sooooooo much more data available now and many more people employed to compile data.

Thats not the point though. read his post again, he makes it seem like all they did back in the day was throw the ball in the hoop, then go home and chill.

Splat wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Nalod wrote:Maybe the question is also why do so many have so little faith?
5-30 sucks. Few saw this coming.
Change of culture is a lot of things. When you go to boot camp in the military they break you down, then put you back together.
Faith is defined as "an unsubstantiated belief". No basis historically to say phil as an exec will transform the team because he has never done it. At the same time one can say that about a lot of GM's who we could have hired. Masai in Toronto had assets and has picks.

The contrarian side of thinks a man with different thinking might succeed instead of following a similar matrix. If this is the case in NY, then its a risk. To follow the media's short sighted anger technique and supplant it as an original thought makes some of you look really bandwagon jumpers who are piling on the 5-30 hate feast.

I have no basis but faith in Phil. Zen philosophy when applied to business is actually a very effective tool. it takes out wishful thinking and the emotional baggage of what has already transpired.

Really, if there is a change in policy and cultural change then it really does not matter what has transpired previously. If Dolan is truly out of the decision process then one can say this will effect the future.

Winning now is not possible. Tickets might be sold and if one was gullible, its to think Phil would have effected great change right away. True there is a starphuch aspect to his hiring. This sells tickets.

Was there another way? Always. IN the face of a failure the logical conclusion is "well anything would have been better than 5-30!"

Effective cultural change? 35 games to conclude this? It takes years. No patience in the Mecca.

Good post.

really? this post is like a bad singer on auto-tune. not to mention unintelligible. maybe you can translate what is being said here.

Yea I wasn't going to make an effort to understand it but if someone else wants to take a shot to ahead. I'm all ears

Glub glub faith based headlights coming, Raps craps tooty toot too. Others say what, Keanu Reeves you a hater. Believe cuz I do and oh snap Zen cool, I'm a business analyst. Yo change like Dylan, I mean Dolan, the future! Losing sucks, mama cry, starphucker! Bling! Crossroads? Train coming, WTF?!

Interesting commentary coming from a poster who when you first appeared said that you were all about basketball commentary and not personal insults. I guess you have decided to sink to the drivel level after all. Such as in another thread when you wanted to drown Melo like a kitten.

foosballnick wrote:

Splat wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Nalod wrote:Maybe the question is also why do so many have so little faith?
5-30 sucks. Few saw this coming.
Change of culture is a lot of things. When you go to boot camp in the military they break you down, then put you back together.
Faith is defined as "an unsubstantiated belief". No basis historically to say phil as an exec will transform the team because he has never done it. At the same time one can say that about a lot of GM's who we could have hired. Masai in Toronto had assets and has picks.

The contrarian side of thinks a man with different thinking might succeed instead of following a similar matrix. If this is the case in NY, then its a risk. To follow the media's short sighted anger technique and supplant it as an original thought makes some of you look really bandwagon jumpers who are piling on the 5-30 hate feast.

I have no basis but faith in Phil. Zen philosophy when applied to business is actually a very effective tool. it takes out wishful thinking and the emotional baggage of what has already transpired.

Really, if there is a change in policy and cultural change then it really does not matter what has transpired previously. If Dolan is truly out of the decision process then one can say this will effect the future.

Winning now is not possible. Tickets might be sold and if one was gullible, its to think Phil would have effected great change right away. True there is a starphuch aspect to his hiring. This sells tickets.

Was there another way? Always. IN the face of a failure the logical conclusion is "well anything would have been better than 5-30!"

Effective cultural change? 35 games to conclude this? It takes years. No patience in the Mecca.

Good post.

really? this post is like a bad singer on auto-tune. not to mention unintelligible. maybe you can translate what is being said here.

Yea I wasn't going to make an effort to understand it but if someone else wants to take a shot to ahead. I'm all ears

Glub glub faith based headlights coming, Raps craps tooty toot too. Others say what, Keanu Reeves you a hater. Believe cuz I do and oh snap Zen cool, I'm a business analyst. Yo change like Dylan, I mean Dolan, the future! Losing sucks, mama cry, starphucker! Bling! Crossroads? Train coming, WTF?!

Interesting commentary coming from a poster who when you first appeared said that you were all about basketball commentary and not personal insults. I guess you have decided to sink to the drivel level after all. Such as in another thread when you wanted to drown Melo like a kitten.

Yeah, I'll insult you. You're FOS. I put Nalod on ignore after they went on a jihad where he couldn't resist talking about circle jerks and female body odors when addressing critiques of this godawful franchise. He's a hysteric and incoherent, so my paraphrasing was completely apt. When I get up in someone's grill I tell them why without making stupid inferences about their sexual habits or hygeine. You sure picked someone who epitomizes the essence of bare knuckled debate. If you're going to insult me, please do it well. You are lacking.

You show up to paraphrase for the hoi polloi and in one fell swoop throw down smack with the IQ comment. You're no better than anyone here, that much is clear.

But as far as IQ is concerned, you're clearly of Einsteinian magnitude, so please go ahead and explain how there is not already definite data to judge the direction of this franchise under Phil Dolan.

Go ahead and tell us how 35 games is not an extension of the same logic driving this franchise for 15 years. Go ahead and tell us how Melo is a sign of a bright new beginning and the dawning of a new culture. Go ahead, explain it to us. We're slow. You're rilly smart.

Nalod wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Nalod wrote:Maybe the question is also why do so many have so little faith?
5-30 sucks. Few saw this coming.
Change of culture is a lot of things. When you go to boot camp in the military they break you down, then put you back together.
Faith is defined as "an unsubstantiated belief". No basis historically to say phil as an exec will transform the team because he has never done it. At the same time one can say that about a lot of GM's who we could have hired. Masai in Toronto had assets and has picks.

The contrarian side of thinks a man with different thinking might succeed instead of following a similar matrix. If this is the case in NY, then its a risk. To follow the media's short sighted anger technique and supplant it as an original thought makes some of you look really bandwagon jumpers who are piling on the 5-30 hate feast.

I have no basis but faith in Phil. Zen philosophy when applied to business is actually a very effective tool. it takes out wishful thinking and the emotional baggage of what has already transpired.

Really, if there is a change in policy and cultural change then it really does not matter what has transpired previously. If Dolan is truly out of the decision process then one can say this will effect the future.

Winning now is not possible. Tickets might be sold and if one was gullible, its to think Phil would have effected great change right away. True there is a starphuch aspect to his hiring. This sells tickets.

Was there another way? Always. IN the face of a failure the logical conclusion is "well anything would have been better than 5-30!"

Effective cultural change? 35 games to conclude this? It takes years. No patience in the Mecca.

Good post.

really? this post is like a bad singer on auto-tune. not to mention unintelligible. maybe you can translate what is being said here.

Use a dictionary. Too many big words for you?

Im amused so many think Walsh and Grunwald were in charge of 100 million dollar contracts.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it doesn't matter how fast Phil can put a contender together.

He's 70 years old. He's got a five year deal, of which one year is burning away.

He might not even be alive when this current deal ends.

All the arguing in the world with some of you guys doesn't make Zen Master younger. The reason pro sports ( not just the NBA) is shifting towards younger and younger GMs is that that job is a grind. Spending 18 hours watching film and flying around and trying to manage an owner, a fanbase, the media, your own coach, that's pure attrition. It's a young man's game.

Phil Jackson's age is a real problem. As he gets older, that problem heads more and more towards critical mass.

nixluva, you seem to be simply ok that there is no grooming line of succession in place here. There are legacy Knicks guys in the organization, but legacy Triangle guys? If Jackson leaves, one way or another, and then someone like Allan Houston takes the reins, well he's not a Triangle guy nor did he play in a mostly Triangle environment. Is he going to say "Sure, let's keep this!" Or dump it after it's clear it won't work without top shelf talent. Then what? All that development and time and specific personnel will have gone to waste, forcing you to start over.

It also seems to fly by some folks that if existing Triangle guys are edging out of the league and no other team is running it to this degree, then you have a very very narrow pipeline of talent or potential talent outside of your team.

Jackson's age is a problem, many of you are simply refusing to acknowledge it. Whether he has a great next off season or not, he's not getting younger and that's an issue.

good post.

Even if phil is all that ... what happens if he gets hit by a bus tomorrow? Who steps in and continues his "culture change"?