Splat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

When have the Knicks had money to offer an 'elite' player a deal other than the mini mle during Melo's tenure? No elite player goes anywhere for the mmle.

An Elite player can force his way here A La La Melo

Approaching extension and demand a trade

CP3 declined to do it as did Love as did Rondo

So are you agreeing that the Knicks have been pretty limited in their ability to pay free agents during Melo's tenure? Splat was talking about free agents.

Except you're sidestepping into a rabbit hole of no consequence to the point I was making.

The point is you cannot rebuild around Melo and that any truly top grade FA will not choose to play with him. It doesn't matter how much money we have unless we overpay those FA's so much more than anyone else they can't say no. And where does that leave us? Nofukkingwhere.

Just cap space alone doesn't make the Knicks a good choice for most FA's.

We have to rebuild our reputation. That takes time and evidence of a new culture, not somewhere that happens magically in a year or two.

Further, we chose to use up a good chunk of our cap going forward on Melo. I don't know if that was Dolan's condition for hiring Phil, but if that is how we spend our money then free agency isn't going to help us much with that kind of overspending.

The only real hope for this franchise is dumping Melo and not committing to big and long contracts. It will take five years.

The alternative is the way we're going which will lead to year 5 of grandpa Melo and nothing rebuilt.

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

When have the Knicks had money to offer an 'elite' player a deal other than the mini mle during Melo's tenure? No elite player goes anywhere for the mmle.

An Elite player can force his way here A La La Melo

Approaching extension and demand a trade

CP3 declined to do it as did Love as did Rondo

So are you agreeing that the Knicks have been pretty limited in their ability to pay free agents during Melo's tenure? Splat was talking about free agents.

Tyson came so there's goes the wonderment but it wasn't a long line

Meanwhile the crux of the matter is what Elite player

Truly wants to tango with Melo

They can arrive here on many different fronts

I guess we will see this summer when the Knicks aren't only able to offer the mmle. One thing though, Phil has said he wants to bring in a couple of guys. That sounds more like team building than star chasing.

I have no problem with this approach

But not sure how we'll be able to do that

Because everyone is gonna want premium dollars

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

No I don't get it!!! You aren't looking at it from the perspective of the FA and the market. The Market for FA's is not just the team they're on but also the teams with cap space and a good role to offer them. The Knicks will be one of the teams with the most cap space and prominent roles to offer. Not every team is going to be able to offer the money and a role for every FA PG and Big. The Knicks should be in the running for the positions they most want.

Sixers     $48.4  Not really looking at Free Agency 
Blazers    $36.3  Already has a Core Big and PG
Spurs      $32.3  ?
Hawks      $24.3  Teague is taking up PG spot
Knicks     $24.3  Open spots in multiple positions
Grizzlies  $23.1  Trying to retain Gasol and already have a PG
Mavericks  $22.3  Just picked up Rondo
Pistons    $21.3  Trying to Keep Monroe and already have Jennings a PG 
Celtics    $12.3  ?
Lakers     $19.5  Like Knicks will have open spots to fill
Magic      $18.6  ?

If you're a young player who wants to get paid but also have a starring role in a big market this is a good place to come. Agents won't be down on their young clients coming to NY.

CrushAlot wrote:From Mannix:

The Knicks don’t need Jackson dumping a drawer full of rings in front of Love; they need him in Lexington evaluating Karl Towns or in Texas studying Myles Turner. They need him doing what Sam Presti, R.C. Buford and every other top executive does, and they need him to do it better. Jackson brought credibility to the franchise when he assumed his new role. Now, he has to bring something more.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/12/25/knicks-wizards-christmas-carmelo-anthony-phil-jackson-john-wall

Sixers     $48.4  Not really looking at Free Agency 
Blazers    $36.3  Already has a Core Big and PG
Spurs      $32.3  ?
Hawks      $24.3  Teague is taking up PG spot
Knicks     $24.3  Open spots in multiple positions
Grizzlies  $23.1  Trying to retain Gasol and already have a PG
Mavericks  $22.3  Just picked up Rondo
Pistons    $21.3  Trying to Keep Monroe and already have Jennings a PG 
Celtics    $12.3  ?
Lakers     $19.5  Like Knicks will have open spots to fill
Magic      $18.6  ?

There are other younger FA's at different Positions that Phil could consider as well. So along with our draft pick we can add young talent that is more affordable if Phil is smart about it.

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:From Mannix:

The Knicks don’t need Jackson dumping a drawer full of rings in front of Love; they need him in Lexington evaluating Karl Towns or in Texas studying Myles Turner. They need him doing what Sam Presti, R.C. Buford and every other top executive does, and they need him to do it better. Jackson brought credibility to the franchise when he assumed his new role. Now, he has to bring something more.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/12/25/knicks-wizards-christmas-carmelo-anthony-phil-jackson-john-wall

What I've been saying all along

As I said if Presti, Morey, Masai, Buford, Hinkie, Ainge

Took over this franchise irregardless of pay

No way it looks like it does today and we'd have more assets[picks] in the fold

Phil needs to be a better exec than them, no question about it

The potions and spells of triangle pixie dust will not get it done

RonRon wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:From Mannix:

The Knicks don’t need Jackson dumping a drawer full of rings in front of Love; they need him in Lexington evaluating Karl Towns or in Texas studying Myles Turner. They need him doing what Sam Presti, R.C. Buford and every other top executive does, and they need him to do it better. Jackson brought credibility to the franchise when he assumed his new role. Now, he has to bring something more.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/12/25/knicks-wizards-christmas-carmelo-anthony-phil-jackson-john-wall

What I've been saying all along

As I said if Presti, Morey, Masai, Buford, Hinkie, Ainge

Took over this franchise irregardless of pay

No way it looks like it does today and we'd have more assets[picks] in the fold

Phil needs to be a better exec than them, no question about it

The potions and spells of triangle pixie dust will not get it done

Problem is Dolan wouldn't respect those guys and override them whenever he wants, dealing one Dolan as the boss and owner isn't an easy task, along with the constant NYK media/scrutiny

Then there is the business side of it...

basketball decisions >>> business decisions??? At what price, to what extent?

I still wonder if MAXING CA was truly a basketball decision that Phil Jackson wanted with a no trade clause or if it was a business decisions
Because I don't see how we build a contender with the current the payroll/lack of assets...

If Phil Jackson realizes that now and would explore some deals that would be best for both NYK's, CA, and another TEAM like Houston....
I do believe he has some plans already up his sleeves though

However, I don't think he thought this team would be as bad as it truly is
Also if AB had major surgery and shouldn't we be elgibile for an injury exemption, another one of MSG's cover ups?

In my opinion,
So far the best moves Phil Jackson has made are on the D League Knicks...

Well pulling the Dolan card every time thinking of

What could have been proves to be very delicate

If that's the case and Phil makes moves

That eventually gets us to the mountain top

Then we all have to give credit to Dolan right?

We can't pick and choose in our mind which decisions appear to be

Dolan or Phil like based on results

Redgardless of the Dolan factor those execs no way

Have is sinking deeper into the quicksand

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

No I don't get it!!! You aren't looking at it from the perspective of the FA and the market. The Market for FA's is not just the team they're on but also the teams with cap space and a good role to offer them. The Knicks will be one of the teams with the most cap space and prominent roles to offer. Not every team is going to be able to offer the money and a role for every FA PG and Big. The Knicks should be in the running for the positions they most want.

Sixers     $48.4  Not really looking at Free Agency 
Blazers    $36.3  Already has a Core Big and PG
Spurs      $32.3  ?
Hawks      $24.3  Teague is taking up PG spot
Knicks     $24.3  Open spots in multiple positions
Grizzlies  $23.1  Trying to retain Gasol and already have a PG
Mavericks  $22.3  Just picked up Rondo
Pistons    $21.3  Trying to Keep Monroe and already have Jennings a PG 
Celtics    $12.3  ?
Lakers     $19.5  Like Knicks will have open spots to fill
Magic      $18.6  ?

If you're a young player who wants to get paid but also have a starring role in a big market this is a good place to come. Agents won't be down on their young clients coming to NY.

Precisely. You don't get it. You still think you can build around Melo.

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

No I don't get it!!! You aren't looking at it from the perspective of the FA and the market. The Market for FA's is not just the team they're on but also the teams with cap space and a good role to offer them. The Knicks will be one of the teams with the most cap space and prominent roles to offer. Not every team is going to be able to offer the money and a role for every FA PG and Big. The Knicks should be in the running for the positions they most want.

Sixers     $48.4  Not really looking at Free Agency 
Blazers    $36.3  Already has a Core Big and PG
Spurs      $32.3  ?
Hawks      $24.3  Teague is taking up PG spot
Knicks     $24.3  Open spots in multiple positions
Grizzlies  $23.1  Trying to retain Gasol and already have a PG
Mavericks  $22.3  Just picked up Rondo
Pistons    $21.3  Trying to Keep Monroe and already have Jennings a PG 
Celtics    $12.3  ?
Lakers     $19.5  Like Knicks will have open spots to fill
Magic      $18.6  ?

If you're a young player who wants to get paid but also have a starring role in a big market this is a good place to come. Agents won't be down on their young clients coming to NY.

Precisely. You don't get it. You still think you can build around Melo.

You really think it's not possible to build a team just cuz Melo is on the team? We're about to see a major change in this roster. There's no way around it. Melo is one player of 15 and no team is about just one player. When we get better players, that can play team ball, it will make for a better team.

My full answer is in the other thread. No, you cannot build around Melo. Per the underlined, Melo cannot be tamed to play team ball, so getting other players who can doesn't fix that.

The only hope for Melo is having his ego subjugated by being placed on a team with better players (there are dozens of better players than Melo, he's nothing special).

The only hope for the Knicks is dumping Melo.

Period. There is no happy ending with Melo as a Knick. Trust me. I'm not bashing you. I'm serious. I think you will realize this at some point.

you think that phil finds a way to trade him?k

phil is gonna have to earn the $

nixluva wrote:
Phil gave the man a no trade! If Phil felt he couldn't build a team around Melo under any circumstances I don't think he would've locked Melo in this way. Phil has had players that resisted playing team ball before. You just can't have a team full of guys with low IQ and selfish tendencies. I think in the end it's going to be about raising the TEAM IQ and overall talent level. Before he came to NY he was able to play well enough with his teammates to win.

2009-10	Denver	53 - 29	.646	1st	Northwest Division	2 - 4	.333	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2008-09	Denver	54 - 28	.659	1st	Northwest Division	10 - 6	.625	Lost West Conf Finals
2007-08	Denver	50 - 32	.610	2nd	Northwest Division	0 - 4	.000	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2006-07	Denver	45 - 37	.549	2nd	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2005-06	Denver	44 - 38	.537	1st	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2004-05	Denver	49 - 33	.598	2nd	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2003-04	Denver	43 - 39	.524	6th	Midwest Division    	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd

I think it's possible to put a good team together with Melo as part of it, but it's up to the GM to come up with a blueprint for the kind of team that will work. For this team it starts with this draft and then the key FA signed this summer. The direction of the franchise will hinge on those 2 players forming the new core of the team.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Phil Phil Phil

You keep the kool-aid stocked in many flavors

OK, Melo is a winner and Phil will fix it. 10-4

We could lose every game next year and you'd say the same stuff. You're blinded by your need. I'll leave you alone now. We are so diametrically opposed in outlook at this point that it is best to let this ride. In Lurk Mode now.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:
Phil gave the man a no trade! If Phil felt he couldn't build a team around Melo under any circumstances I don't think he would've locked Melo in this way. Phil has had players that resisted playing team ball before. You just can't have a team full of guys with low IQ and selfish tendencies. I think in the end it's going to be about raising the TEAM IQ and overall talent level. Before he came to NY he was able to play well enough with his teammates to win.

2009-10	Denver	53 - 29	.646	1st	Northwest Division	2 - 4	.333	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2008-09	Denver	54 - 28	.659	1st	Northwest Division	10 - 6	.625	Lost West Conf Finals
2007-08	Denver	50 - 32	.610	2nd	Northwest Division	0 - 4	.000	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2006-07	Denver	45 - 37	.549	2nd	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2005-06	Denver	44 - 38	.537	1st	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2004-05	Denver	49 - 33	.598	2nd	Northwest Division	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2003-04	Denver	43 - 39	.524	6th	Midwest Division    	1 - 4	.200	Lost West Conf 1st Rd

I think it's possible to put a good team together with Melo as part of it, but it's up to the GM to come up with a blueprint for the kind of team that will work. For this team it starts with this draft and then the key FA signed this summer. The direction of the franchise will hinge on those 2 players forming the new core of the team.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Phil Phil Phil

You keep the kool-aid stocked in many flavors

OK, Melo is a winner and Phil will fix it. 10-4

We could lose every game next year and you'd say the same stuff. You're blinded by your need. I'll leave you alone now. We are so diametrically opposed in outlook at this point that it is best to let this ride. In Lurk Mode now.

Now you're just exaggerating. You and others are making the point that Melo can't be part of a winning team so I post his record which at the least shows that he CAN be part of a winning team. I don't even like the teams he was on before but they were able to win games and even make a Conf. Finals. Why should we just give up on the idea that with a better mix of players than he had in Denver or New York so far, that this team can win?

This was the best team Melo was on in 2008-09. They won 54 games and went to the Conf. Finals.

                 Age PPG
Allen Iverson    33  18.7
Chauncey Billups 32  17.9
Carmelo Anthony  24  22.8
Nene Hilario     26  14.6
J.R. Smith       23  15.2
Kenyon Martin    31  11.7
Linas Kleiza     24  9.9
Anthony Carter   33  5.3
Chris Andersen   30  6.4
Dahntay Jones    28  5.4
Renaldo Balkman  24  5.0
Chucky Atkins    34  1.9
Johan Petro      23  2.2

Are we to believe that it is impossible to put together a better team than this? AI and Billups were still good but closer to the end of their careers. It's not the deepest team either. It seems to me that this summer is all important for forming the core of the team going forward. It doesn't have to all happen at once but Phil has to at least start the process of a better foundation.

wasnt iverson traded for billups?

It was a horrible decision to JUST run the triangle without the parts to execute the system
We simply don't have the talent to build a team around a player that is making that much money
Now if we we had a bunch of pieces to start with and they decided to pay CA, it would be overpaying for his services

When we were struggling early we should have used theories of TEAM PLAY and run some more PnR with the shooters/penetrate of Larkin with constant movement
Instead we lose all value of the players we have because of our apparenent struggles

We were never going to be a goood DEFENSIVE team with this roster however, we could have been a decent OFFENSIVE team
Now we need to find a way to accumlate assets and it doesn't look good as we are unable to sell our players for any real value

We need a post presence to initiate the offense on a highly effecient % and draw double teams for the triangle
Then hit it back out to the shooters and they must be ready to anticipate as a whole

Phil wanted Pau Gasol very much for a reason, despite his age
I was very surprised when Phil Jackson was willing to offer a MAX salary to CA that is much more than the MAX salary of what rookie contracts and even 2nd contracts are
Even if they are "MAX" salaries, the scales of pay are completely different, making a difference on how we can accumulate talent
It leaves us with little cap space to work with but much talent needed to build a foundation of a team
Instead he decided to not pick up peanuts on Larkin's salary, which is nothing when compared to what we still need to build a starting lineup, nevermind an entire team

We are just wasting time at this point, trading CA is essential before things just get more ugly as the damage is unrepairable
Unless we are happpy with building a team that can possibly contend for a lower seed just to get knocked out in round 1 or 2 at best

At this point, I don't even know what a team like Houston would actually even consider giving us for CA
Especially when it is a GM like Morey, utilizing leverage to its full extent to accumulate as many assets to build what he has today

Though another story, Morey still needed OKC to trade him virtually for peanuts
Of course that still needed a low market team like OKC, without the ability to keep a dynasty in the making for the next 10 years and still be financially responsible as a business
Harden surely deserves MVP considerations, especially with the improvements he has made to be a better facilitator, leader, defender, and continue to dominate and improve the way he has...

And that is why it is imperative to always be looking to acquire assets, keep flipping talent/draft picks, and signing short term deals that could be used in trades or not hurt the team long term

I do really wonder if resigning CA was in fact a Phil Jackson basketball decision or MSG/business decision that Dolan didn't want to lose for NOTHING, possibly to save face since he was the one that pushed and made the deal, over riding Walsh at the time