holfresh wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

I completely disagree...The problem wasn't chasing LeBron James and coming up empty..The problem was signing a big name coach that needed to land an Amare to win now...I am completely against signing middle of the road guys u can get through the draft...We can be a bad team and work through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility to put a few impact players together...Melo is an impact player..Ill go for him..Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov are middle of the road guys, I wont pay them until I have my pieces in place, They are expendable and won't take your team to the next level, See Denver, see Detroit, etc...Boston did it with impact players..The Lakers did it..Miami did it...

Make a run at Aldridge,Love,Leonard,Afflalo to play with Melo..Don't kill cap space with the Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Clarance Witherspoons of the world..They too, were looking like great players on other teams...And if we don't land anyone,I'll keep my powder dry and try to move Melo next year if we don't get better...Keep drafting and cap space...

Making a run a big names isn't the problem..It's the 5 years 100 mil for a guy to run your pick and roll, with bad knees, is the problem...

wrong.

acquiring anthony put the team in win-now mode. prior to that there was still a plan in place to build and upgrade by position, the next position being point guard. why the urge to re-write history like this?

sensible people don't create a narrative and then make assertions to fit the narrative, assertions being a substitute for actual facts.

the mistake was made when dolan stepped in and melo forced his way here-- he admitted he forced his way here. that is a fact. it is also a fact that melo plays the same position and has many of the same weaknesses as stoudemire.

you don't amass talent if the talent doesn't fit. fact: melo and stoudemire do not play well together.

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

Yeah but what type of salary does Harris command while still not putting u over the top...Same with Lopez...Melo has what,a 3/4 year window...Those two will kill the cap and I can still see us playing .500 ball..Lopez isn't close to what Chandler was and u know he wants 8/10 mil...Harris another 10 mil??...I'm always wary of "good" players on bad teams...U just don't know the quantity..Sure it makes us better but these guys don't make u contend unless u have the main pieces in place and we don't..

My point is, even if we added these two pieces, u still need bigger pieces to contend..

To contend in the east no. Actually, Lopez is close to what Tyson was when he was 26. Who was Tyson before he went to Dallas? He was a journeymen partly because of his injuries but some because of his limited play but Tyson didn't start to beast until he hit his prim years. Also, like I mentioned earlier about the impact Lopez made with Aldridge and Portland. They struggled severely defensively before he got there. Lopez is also a better rim protector than Tyson and although he is not the greatest rebounder he rebounds it better than Gasol. Plus he is a smart player who can pass even though it does not show up in ast. I think those would come in this system.

Harris is a solid offensive player than can grow into a highly efficient player. I want a young FA that is not set in his ways and is willing to be groomed. The guy just keeps improving and even though he is not on a winning basketball team he is playing like a winner. You don't punish players on bad teams and also it is hard to get players on good teams (or bad) to come to a team that hasn't won. There are some things working in the Knicks favor with Tobias, like he is from New York, his shoe deal, and relationship with Melo. Now, those are just minor things but those are something plus NY might be willing to pay more than Orlando.

Stars are nice but sometimes teams have to create/find stars before they are stars. Also, look at what changed some of the teams in the east. Teams like Was, Tor, and ATL picked up quality players and surrounded their talent. Nene, Gortat, Millsap, Korver, and Lowry where not stars they were quality players.

I will say this though. The Knicks would need to add a dynamic guard too. He doesn't have to be the most efficient scorer but if he plays defense, rebounds, and pass the knicks could use someone to attack the basket. Reggie Jackson is a candidate if they can work out a S&T or even someone like Jeff Teague. I doubt Teague will be available if he keeps up his play and ATL makes some noise in the playoffs but if he/they don't and they want to pass Dennis the torch he would be a guy to go after. He is not exactly my cup of tea but he would do.

Agreed. Maybe we need to start finding our own big names instead of trying to steal ones that already are big names. Guys who are 22-26 and can already help but improve even more. Harris is already an 18 and 9 player on a bad team at age 22. Maybe in a couple years he can do that on a great team. Teams like toronto and memphis drafted well but also got players via trade early enough in their careers to develop into all star caliber players.

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

I completely disagree...The problem wasn't chasing LeBron James and coming up empty..The problem was signing a big name coach that needed to land an Amare to win now...I am completely against signing middle of the road guys u can get through the draft...We can be a bad team and work through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility to put a few impact players together...Melo is an impact player..Ill go for him..Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov are middle of the road guys, I wont pay them until I have my pieces in place, They are expendable and won't take your team to the next level, See Denver, see Detroit, etc...Boston did it with impact players..The Lakers did it..Miami did it...

Make a run at Aldridge,Love,Leonard,Afflalo to play with Melo..Don't kill cap space with the Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Clarance Witherspoons of the world..They too, were looking like great players on other teams...And if we don't land anyone,I'll keep my powder dry and try to move Melo next year if we don't get better...Keep drafting and cap space...

Making a run a big names isn't the problem..It's the 5 years 100 mil for a guy to run your pick and roll, with bad knees, is the problem...

wrong.

acquiring anthony put the team in win-now mode. prior to that there was still a plan in place to build and upgrade by position, the next position being point guard. why the urge to re-write history like this?

sensible people don't create a narrative and then make assertions to fit the narrative, assertions being a substitute for actual facts.

the mistake was made when dolan stepped in and melo forced his way here-- he admitted he forced his way here. that is a fact. it is also a fact that melo plays the same position and has many of the same weaknesses as stoudemire.

you don't amass talent if the talent doesn't fit. fact: melo and stoudemire do not play well together.

We traded for Melo when he was 26. While I agree the formula was win now, if you acquire a star player at age 26 which is the start of his prime you should have the ability to build around him. It was what followed that got us in the most trouble. That and having a third of the cap taken up by an amares contract without much production.

Would have been nice if we did not sign chandler and amnestied amare instead.

Then perhaps we could have put players around him like Lowry and Millsap.

There were so many ways that we could have made this a success.

mreinman wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

I completely disagree...The problem wasn't chasing LeBron James and coming up empty..The problem was signing a big name coach that needed to land an Amare to win now...I am completely against signing middle of the road guys u can get through the draft...We can be a bad team and work through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility to put a few impact players together...Melo is an impact player..Ill go for him..Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov are middle of the road guys, I wont pay them until I have my pieces in place, They are expendable and won't take your team to the next level, See Denver, see Detroit, etc...Boston did it with impact players..The Lakers did it..Miami did it...

Make a run at Aldridge,Love,Leonard,Afflalo to play with Melo..Don't kill cap space with the Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Clarance Witherspoons of the world..They too, were looking like great players on other teams...And if we don't land anyone,I'll keep my powder dry and try to move Melo next year if we don't get better...Keep drafting and cap space...

Making a run a big names isn't the problem..It's the 5 years 100 mil for a guy to run your pick and roll, with bad knees, is the problem...

wrong.

acquiring anthony put the team in win-now mode. prior to that there was still a plan in place to build and upgrade by position, the next position being point guard. why the urge to re-write history like this?

sensible people don't create a narrative and then make assertions to fit the narrative, assertions being a substitute for actual facts.

the mistake was made when dolan stepped in and melo forced his way here-- he admitted he forced his way here. that is a fact. it is also a fact that melo plays the same position and has many of the same weaknesses as stoudemire.

you don't amass talent if the talent doesn't fit. fact: melo and stoudemire do not play well together.

We traded for Melo when he was 26. While I agree the formula was win now, if you acquire a star player at age 26 which is the start of his prime you should have the ability to build around him. It was what followed that got us in the most trouble. That and having a third of the cap taken up by an amares contract without much production.

Would have been nice if we did not sign chandler and amnestied amare instead.

Then perhaps we could have put players around him like Lowry and Millsap.

There were so many ways that we could have made this a success.

Exactly. That was where the issues really began. Signing amare wasn't even the issue as we had a get out of jail free card. We would have had cap space and only melo on the books to really do something here. True melo cost us many assets, but that's expected. The rest could have been handled so much better. But now we have a chance to get it right again, just have a shorter window so it's best to add younger talent via free agency to help melo as he gets older.

smackeddog wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

I completely disagree...The problem wasn't chasing LeBron James and coming up empty..The problem was signing a big name coach that needed to land an Amare to win now...I am completely against signing middle of the road guys u can get through the draft...We can be a bad team and work through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility to put a few impact players together...Melo is an impact player..Ill go for him..Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov are middle of the road guys, I wont pay them until I have my pieces in place, They are expendable and won't take your team to the next level, See Denver, see Detroit, etc...Boston did it with impact players..The Lakers did it..Miami did it...

Make a run at Aldridge,Love,Leonard,Afflalo to play with Melo..Don't kill cap space with the Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Clarance Witherspoons of the world..They too, were looking like great players on other teams...And if we don't land anyone,I'll keep my powder dry and try to move Melo next year if we don't get better...Keep drafting and cap space...

Making a run a big names isn't the problem..It's the 5 years 100 mil for a guy to run your pick and roll, with bad knees, is the problem...

wrong.

acquiring anthony put the team in win-now mode. prior to that there was still a plan in place to build and upgrade by position, the next position being point guard. why the urge to re-write history like this?

sensible people don't create a narrative and then make assertions to fit the narrative, assertions being a substitute for actual facts.

the mistake was made when dolan stepped in and melo forced his way here-- he admitted he forced his way here. that is a fact. it is also a fact that melo plays the same position and has many of the same weaknesses as stoudemire.

you don't amass talent if the talent doesn't fit. fact: melo and stoudemire do not play well together.

We traded for Melo when he was 26. While I agree the formula was win now, if you acquire a star player at age 26 which is the start of his prime you should have the ability to build around him. It was what followed that got us in the most trouble. That and having a third of the cap taken up by an amares contract without much production.

the problem is that we gave up all our assets which makes it difficult To make any major moves. Melo fits best as the 2nd guy on the team

The problem now is we can either have Melo, but not be able to afford to put the team he needs around him, or we can form the team he'd need around him but only at the cost of trading him.

Nalod wrote:Please define in detail how Melo forced his way here? Was it like some black mail thing? Navy Seal black Op's thing?
Did he use "Deadly" force? Waterboard his way in? Did he apply sleep deprivation to Dolan? Home invasion?

let them say it ... its the cool thing to do

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

Yeah but what type of salary does Harris command while still not putting u over the top...Same with Lopez...Melo has what,a 3/4 year window...Those two will kill the cap and I can still see us playing .500 ball..Lopez isn't close to what Chandler was and u know he wants 8/10 mil...Harris another 10 mil??...I'm always wary of "good" players on bad teams...U just don't know the quantity..Sure it makes us better but these guys don't make u contend unless u have the main pieces in place and we don't..

My point is, even if we added these two pieces, u still need bigger pieces to contend..

To contend in the east no. Actually, Lopez is close to what Tyson was when he was 26. Who was Tyson before he went to Dallas? He was a journeymen partly because of his injuries but some because of his limited play but Tyson didn't start to beast until he hit his prim years. Also, like I mentioned earlier about the impact Lopez made with Aldridge and Portland. They struggled severely defensively before he got there. Lopez is also a better rim protector than Tyson and although he is not the greatest rebounder he rebounds it better than Gasol. Plus he is a smart player who can pass even though it does not show up in ast. I think those would come in this system.

Harris is a solid offensive player than can grow into a highly efficient player. I want a young FA that is not set in his ways and is willing to be groomed. The guy just keeps improving and even though he is not on a winning basketball team he is playing like a winner. You don't punish players on bad teams and also it is hard to get players on good teams (or bad) to come to a team that hasn't won. There are some things working in the Knicks favor with Tobias, like he is from New York, his shoe deal, and relationship with Melo. Now, those are just minor things but those are something plus NY might be willing to pay more than Orlando.

Stars are nice but sometimes teams have to create/find stars before they are stars. Also, look at what changed some of the teams in the east. Teams like Was, Tor, and ATL picked up quality players and surrounded their talent. Nene, Gortat, Millsap, Korver, and Lowry where not stars they were quality players.

I will say this though. The Knicks would need to add a dynamic guard too. He doesn't have to be the most efficient scorer but if he plays defense, rebounds, and pass the knicks could use someone to attack the basket. Reggie Jackson is a candidate if they can work out a S&T or even someone like Jeff Teague. I doubt Teague will be available if he keeps up his play and ATL makes some noise in the playoffs but if he/they don't and they want to pass Dennis the torch he would be a guy to go after. He is not exactly my cup of tea but he would do.

It's Aldridge and Liliard who makes Portland a contender, not Lopez...We keep making the mistake of spending whenever we have cap space on players that are non-impact players..We spent on Chandler after watching Dallas win, instead of being patient for a Chris Paul type who later became available...Adding young players are nice but at what salary which may end up handcuffing your move to the next level...

Wash, Tor, Atl aren't contenders..They are first/second round teams with limited cap space to add a player that takes them over the top...

quite the contrary ... we need more players like Lopez and less all in players.

smackeddog wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

I completely disagree...The problem wasn't chasing LeBron James and coming up empty..The problem was signing a big name coach that needed to land an Amare to win now...I am completely against signing middle of the road guys u can get through the draft...We can be a bad team and work through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility to put a few impact players together...Melo is an impact player..Ill go for him..Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov are middle of the road guys, I wont pay them until I have my pieces in place, They are expendable and won't take your team to the next level, See Denver, see Detroit, etc...Boston did it with impact players..The Lakers did it..Miami did it...

Make a run at Aldridge,Love,Leonard,Afflalo to play with Melo..Don't kill cap space with the Howard Eisley, Shannon Anderson, Clarance Witherspoons of the world..They too, were looking like great players on other teams...And if we don't land anyone,I'll keep my powder dry and try to move Melo next year if we don't get better...Keep drafting and cap space...

Making a run a big names isn't the problem..It's the 5 years 100 mil for a guy to run your pick and roll, with bad knees, is the problem...

wrong.

acquiring anthony put the team in win-now mode. prior to that there was still a plan in place to build and upgrade by position, the next position being point guard. why the urge to re-write history like this?

sensible people don't create a narrative and then make assertions to fit the narrative, assertions being a substitute for actual facts.

the mistake was made when dolan stepped in and melo forced his way here-- he admitted he forced his way here. that is a fact. it is also a fact that melo plays the same position and has many of the same weaknesses as stoudemire.

you don't amass talent if the talent doesn't fit. fact: melo and stoudemire do not play well together.

We traded for Melo when he was 26. While I agree the formula was win now, if you acquire a star player at age 26 which is the start of his prime you should have the ability to build around him. It was what followed that got us in the most trouble. That and having a third of the cap taken up by an amares contract without much production.

the problem is that we gave up all our assets which makes it difficult To make any major moves. Melo fits best as the 2nd guy on the team

The problem now is we can either have Melo, but not be able to afford to put the team he needs around him, or we can form the team he'd need around him but only at the cost of trading him.

The problem has always been Amare injury and his contract...Bad use of cap space with (1) not letting Billups walk and (2) signing Chandler...Textbook how not to use cap space...

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

Yeah but what type of salary does Harris command while still not putting u over the top...Same with Lopez...Melo has what,a 3/4 year window...Those two will kill the cap and I can still see us playing .500 ball..Lopez isn't close to what Chandler was and u know he wants 8/10 mil...Harris another 10 mil??...I'm always wary of "good" players on bad teams...U just don't know the quantity..Sure it makes us better but these guys don't make u contend unless u have the main pieces in place and we don't..

My point is, even if we added these two pieces, u still need bigger pieces to contend..

To contend in the east no. Actually, Lopez is close to what Tyson was when he was 26. Who was Tyson before he went to Dallas? He was a journeymen partly because of his injuries but some because of his limited play but Tyson didn't start to beast until he hit his prim years. Also, like I mentioned earlier about the impact Lopez made with Aldridge and Portland. They struggled severely defensively before he got there. Lopez is also a better rim protector than Tyson and although he is not the greatest rebounder he rebounds it better than Gasol. Plus he is a smart player who can pass even though it does not show up in ast. I think those would come in this system.

Harris is a solid offensive player than can grow into a highly efficient player. I want a young FA that is not set in his ways and is willing to be groomed. The guy just keeps improving and even though he is not on a winning basketball team he is playing like a winner. You don't punish players on bad teams and also it is hard to get players on good teams (or bad) to come to a team that hasn't won. There are some things working in the Knicks favor with Tobias, like he is from New York, his shoe deal, and relationship with Melo. Now, those are just minor things but those are something plus NY might be willing to pay more than Orlando.

Stars are nice but sometimes teams have to create/find stars before they are stars. Also, look at what changed some of the teams in the east. Teams like Was, Tor, and ATL picked up quality players and surrounded their talent. Nene, Gortat, Millsap, Korver, and Lowry where not stars they were quality players.

I will say this though. The Knicks would need to add a dynamic guard too. He doesn't have to be the most efficient scorer but if he plays defense, rebounds, and pass the knicks could use someone to attack the basket. Reggie Jackson is a candidate if they can work out a S&T or even someone like Jeff Teague. I doubt Teague will be available if he keeps up his play and ATL makes some noise in the playoffs but if he/they don't and they want to pass Dennis the torch he would be a guy to go after. He is not exactly my cup of tea but he would do.

It's Aldridge and Liliard who makes Portland a contender, not Lopez...We keep making the mistake of spending whenever we have cap space on players that are non-impact players..We spent on Chandler after watching Dallas win, instead of being patient for a Chris Paul type who later became available...Adding young players are nice but at what salary which may end up handcuffing your move to the next level...

Wash, Tor, Atl aren't contenders..They are first/second round teams with limited cap space to add a player that takes them over the top...

quite the contrary ... we need more players like Lopez and less all in players.

Chandler was Lopez like, even better...

maybe but he cost us dearly and was a dikhead

And where did it get us?..Willing to pay Lopez 8/10 per??

Nalod wrote:Please define in detail how Melo forced his way here? Was it like some black mail thing? Navy Seal black Op's thing?
Did he use "Deadly" force? Waterboard his way in? Did he apply sleep deprivation to Dolan? Home invasion?

Can anyone walk up to Melo, look him in the eye and say "Melo, its your fault for forcing your way here? Would you do it on Youtube for the world to see?

Melo said he wanted to be traded and NY was his choice. Given the fortunate plan of the NBA he had two teams in NY to create a bidding war. Net were all set until Dolan prematurely ejaculated into fear mode and over spent.

All Dolan had to say was NO Thank you!! "Im not giving away half my team to get Melo and have no team around him". Instead he saw a great marketing opportunity and was afraid of the Nets. The Russian did make us over pay.

IN the end Knicks and nets both lost the arms race. NEITHER has succeeded!!!!!!

why ask me? ask him yourself:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/11624895/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-says-most-underrated-star-player

This isn't to say Lin was an elite player but if they kept him he was capable of getting in the paint which we needed. He had the right style for how the team was set up.