TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction of (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

You also have to consider that both the luxury tax and cap space will increase significantly because of the new TV deal. So we might actually have more tools to build a roster around Melo than Dallas did Dirk. Theoretically, couldn't we max out Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler this offseason?

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction of (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

You also have to consider that both the luxury tax and cap space will increase significantly because of the new TV deal. So we might actually have more tools to build a roster around Melo than Dallas did Dirk. Theoretically, couldn't we max out Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler this offseason?

Once again the Cap explodes for everyone

It's not STATIC as in we get all the great players first

Then once our roster is filled

The cap opens up for the rest of the league

I keep laughing at this notion because of an exploding cap

We'll be able to put together a superteam

It's not gonna happen until like 2017 anyway

How old will Melo be 33 going on 34

He'll be a mediocre efficient 22-21ppg scorer by then

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

Melo and Jose are pretty much part of the core so far. Jose is basically the Kidd role and is being paid about the same. We need to see how they feel about Iman starting at SG. My guess is that they will bring him back. He's a 2 way player and helps to make it possible to run Jose out there defensively. Iman would have to come in at a reasonable price for a guy that will be in the Shawn Marion role. It's possible they can get it done but if not that's another task for Phil to replace a defender the team will need.

The one thing about that Mavs team is that some of those guys are OVERPAID for what they brought to the table IMO. Jason Terry had to become the #2 option after Caron Butler went down. Terry avg'd 15.8 ppg and was at $10.6 mil. That was 3rd highest behind Tyson at $12.3 mil. Tyson getting paid that much but not being the 2nd option is a poor structure IMO. Phil could do better than that. He's gonna have to really make sure to give the team a defensive anchor who comes in at a MUCH cheaper cost than Tyson or he can go big on a guy like Mark Gasol. Thing is I actually don't see Gasol coming to NY. That leads me to think Phil is going to be looking at trades to remake the Knicks. Just surveying the Free Agent landscape and what the Team needs I think Phil is gonna have to look to make deals.

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction of (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

You also have to consider that both the luxury tax and cap space will increase significantly because of the new TV deal. So we might actually have more tools to build a roster around Melo than Dallas did Dirk. Theoretically, couldn't we max out Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler this offseason?

Probably not both of them, at least not without cutting more salary. The max for guys with less than 7 years in the league is 25% of the salary cap which is $14.7M this season. Next Summer we have approximately $38M in guaranteed salaries wrapped up in only 6 guys and doesn't include Shumpert, our 1st round pick, or the cap holds for the empty roster spots. Shumpert's cap hold will be around $6M, our 1st round pick should be at least another $2M, and the cap holds will add another $1.5M. That should bring us to a little over $48M and would leave us with only $15M in cap space under the current salary cap.

Let's say JR opts out, we waive Shumpert's Bird rights, and we trade our 1st round pick for nothing (at which point I would commit seppuku ). That's probably our best case scenario in maxing out cap room and would bring us to about $32M in salary and another $3M-ish in cap holds for the empty roster spots. Then let's also say that the cap goes up something like $5M to $68M. That gives us about $33M to work with but it also means that the max salary increases to about $16M. In this scenario we'd be able to offer max deals to Butler and Jackson and have about $1M left over to round out the rest of the roster. Our team would be Calderon-Jackson-Butler-Melo-Hardaway-Early.

If the cap were to really jump, let's say $10M, to $73M we'd have $38M to work with and the max salary would be about $17M. We could offer the two max deals and have about $4M left over to round out the roster.

Great info. WHat would the tax apron be in that scenario? Also, Wouldn't the Knicks also have the MLE and BLE to use with the $1M left over from Jackson and Butler? On top of that couldn't they structure both deals with the maximum decrease to create a little more money in the 1st year?

Another thing, Reggie Jackson does not deserve a max contract. That would be a serious risk on a bench player who is not that good of a shooter/efficient scorer. I love the rebounding and passing but I would want to see better shooting while he plays as a starter.

F500ONE wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction of (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

You also have to consider that both the luxury tax and cap space will increase significantly because of the new TV deal. So we might actually have more tools to build a roster around Melo than Dallas did Dirk. Theoretically, couldn't we max out Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler this offseason?

Once again the Cap explodes for everyone

It's not STATIC as in we get all the great players first

Then once our roster is filled

The cap opens up for the rest of the league

I keep laughing at this notion because of an exploding cap

We'll be able to puit together a superteam

It's not gonna happen until like 2017 anyway

How old will Melo be 33 going on 34

He'll be a mediocre efficient 22-21ppg scorer by then

I don't think people are looking to have a super team. But more so looking to create a foundation for the next 10 yrs. Melo being 33-34 wouldn't matter as much as you want it to if we make some good decisions and get alleviate his responsibilities and mins with a balanced attack.

yellowboy90 wrote:

VCoug wrote:I agree that Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler aren't worth maximums right now but these are the type of deals we'll need to take chances on if we're going to succeed in the near future without a full rebuild. And those are the deals, or close to it, we'd need to offer those guys so their teams don't match, and even then they still might.

You really think OKC would offer Jackson the max with Westbrook already there making nearly the same amount yearly if Reggie got a max contract? I guess phx may have set an example but those guys seem to compliment and not duplicate each other. Maybe another team offers him the max like Sac, LA, or Mil.

side note: I'm trying to think of the last bench player to get a max or near max deal. Anyone have some examples?

Harden

F500ONE wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction of (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

You also have to consider that both the luxury tax and cap space will increase significantly because of the new TV deal. So we might actually have more tools to build a roster around Melo than Dallas did Dirk. Theoretically, couldn't we max out Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler this offseason?

Once again the Cap explodes for everyone

It's not STATIC as in we get all the great players first

Then once our roster is filled

The cap opens up for the rest of the league

I keep laughing at this notion because of an exploding cap

We'll be able to put together a superteam

It's not gonna happen until like 2017 anyway

How old will Melo be 33 going on 34

He'll be a mediocre efficient 22-21ppg scorer by then

Not a super team per say. But Melo's contract will not be a significant portion of the Knicks cap anymore. So there will be space to at least put together a decent roster if smart signings are made.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dirk was 32 when he won his title and he's still making a run at 36. Melo is still a viable player given his game isn't predicated on pure athletic ability. Phil has to make it happen over the next year or 2 in terms of surrounding Melo with the needed talent.

The Dallas team in question was created several CBAs ago. Meaning that type of team construction (where Cuban kept paying into the luxury tax, but without the current penalties) is virtually impossible in today's NBA. When you factor in the type of exceptions possible that don't exist the same way today, I just can't see it happening.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#all_salaries

To build the viable "Ideal For Melo" team was Simmons posits would mean doing so needing draft assets developed. Which lies the basic problem here. Draft picks take time to develop, by the time they are ready to flourish, Melo will be at the end of his contract and likely not the same level of player he is now. Think about it. Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler are starting to emerge now. Even if you factor in they had a harder time getting minutes on stacked rosters, consider that even at a 2-3 year developmental window, instead of a 4-5 year one, is still dealing with a different kind of Melo at that point.

Melo and Jose are pretty much part of the core so far. Jose is basically the Kidd role and is being paid about the same. We need to see how they feel about Iman starting at SG. My guess is that they will bring him back. He's a 2 way player and helps to make it possible to run Jose out there defensively. Iman would have to come in at a reasonable price for a guy that will be in the Shawn Marion role. It's possible they can get it done but if not that's another task for Phil to replace a defender the team will need.

The one thing about that Mavs team is that some of those guys are OVERPAID for what they brought to the table IMO. Jason Terry had to become the #2 option after Caron Butler went down. Terry avg'd 15.8 ppg and was at $10.6 mil. That was 3rd highest behind Tyson at $12.3 mil. Tyson getting paid that much but not being the 2nd option is a poor structure IMO. Phil could do better than that. He's gonna have to really make sure to give the team a defensive anchor who comes in at a MUCH cheaper cost than Tyson or he can go big on a guy like Mark Gasol. Thing is I actually don't see Gasol coming to NY. That leads me to think Phil is going to be looking at trades to remake the Knicks. Just surveying the Free Agent landscape and what the Team needs I think Phil is gonna have to look to make deals.

What does 2nd option mean? Tyson is playing better than he did when he was an all-star.

This isn't a diss on Tyson. Don't like the idea of team cap structure where Tyson was the 2nd highest paid player. I think put them in bad spot when he wanted more money. Your 2nd option should be 2nd highest paid and team defensive anchor behind them. Unless you get a Marc Gasol or Aldridge can't see paying as much as Dallas did for Tyson relative to Melo.

The idea is to find a way to fit what we need under the cap. I have doubt we can convince Gasol or Aldridge to come. I could see Phil going after Monroe.
In terms of Free Agents perhaps he makes some smaller moves to round out support. Even with Jose They will still need a PG and Dragic or Reggie Jackson seem like targets.

So my guess is Phil goes Hard for Monroe and Dragic.

Bonn1997 wrote:But again, what do you mean by second option? It makes it sound like you care only about scoring - I assume you mean "second scoring option" because that's the only way I've heard the term used before. There are many important aspects of the game outside of scoring though.

I've made statements that make it clear this team is gonna need a defensive anchor but if that is the 2nd highest paid player I think the teams structure is off unless you already have someone to help carry the scoring load. The Mavs decided to let Tyson walk when he was due for more money and if he was not being paid the 2nd highest already I doubt they let Tyson go. At a certain point you have to have a number for each position you have on your roster. I think Tyson was important to what the Mavs did but clearly he was not worth paying as much as he was going to get from NY with their cap situation at the time.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:But again, what do you mean by second option? It makes it sound like you care only about scoring - I assume you mean "second scoring option" because that's the only way I've heard the term used before. There are many important aspects of the game outside of scoring though.

I'm well aware of the importance of defense. I myself was a defensive player and I love defense. I'm not saying that defense isn't important!!! It's why I said they may keep Shump to help cover for Jose defensively. This is about the cap structure of the team and how you build it. Tyson was not a 2nd option on the Mavs but was paid that way. It's entirely possible we could get a defensive anchor for less money and also add a 2nd option behind Melo. Now it could be a guy who could do both but I don't think a guy like Marc Gasol is gonna come to the Knicks. He would be worth being paid the 2nd highest salary since he would be not only a defensive anchor but a major scoring option as well.

I've made statements that make it clear this team is gonna need a defensive anchor but if that is the 2nd highest paid player I think the teams structure is off unless you already have someone to help carry the scoring load. The Mavs decided to let Tyson walk when he was due for more money and if he was not being paid the 2nd highest already I doubt they let Tyson go. At a certain point you have to have a number for each position you have on your roster. I think Tyson was important to what the Mavs did but clearly he was not worth paying as much as he was going to get from NY with their cap situation at the time.

My guess is you're also highly devaluing efficient scoring and offensive rebounding. You might find a defensive anchor for less but you won't find one who will average double digit scoring on 70% shooting and will be a league leader in offensive rebounding. You're not merely neglecting defense when you say second option. You're neglecting all aspects of the offense other than volume scoring (efficiency, passing, offensive rebounding) too. You notice that Dallas replaced Calderon with Tyson and their offense is actually a lot better? They're first in PPG. Every year, Tyson's team's offense is always better with him on than off the court. Imagine you have one guy who usually shoots around 6 for 9. That can fully compensate for another player going around 6 for 16 or 8 for 21, and you have almost 50% combined shooting. That's not to say scoring volume is irrelevant but it's just one of many factors, and it's arbitrary to pick that as the one measuring stick on offense. Dallas' biggest improvement is actually on the offensive end. You could say some of that has to do with Parsons but I doubt it. His #s are actually poor.