nixluva wrote:1st of all very few players just KNOW what it takes to win. In fact a lot of coaches don't know what it takes to lead players to win. I'm not saying it's all coaching. To win consistently and go deep in the playoffs or to the finals it takes a COMPLETE organization. However what always seems to get lost is Perspective!!! This team wasn't going to win a title in any of the years we're talking about. Not with MDA or Woody. So relative to the actual talent we had I evaluate that Woodson is not a good coach. With every team expectations are relative to the talent they have. Some teams have 8th seed 1st n out talent. You can only judge the coach based on what he does with a team relative to the talent he has. It's even tougher with System coaches that are more particular about the type of players they need to win.

If this is perspective, then I dont want any. it was obvious the Knicks werent winning a title during either coaches tenure....so how exactly are they bad coaches...because they could do what everyone knew wasnt possible? The fact of the matter is the roster during those times were not good. For the last three to four years the second best player was JR Smith. JR was never that player in Denver, he had a role and it was small. Coaches dont make roster moves, but somehow D'antoni got the Knicks to play top 10 defense even in a losing effort. Somehow Woody got a team with a gimmick offense and non existent defense to 54 wins and a second round bow out.

thats overachieving all day in MY book. Thats MY perspective. But last year....YOU wanted everyone to believe the team was better and I along with quite a few others knew this team would REGRESS.....and they did. In your perspective, things are only bad AFTER THE FACT.

nixluva wrote:Most coaches if they're good might only impact a team positively to the tune of 5 to 10 games verses a run of the mill coach. That's being generous. However a coach can absolutely sink a team if he fails in enough areas and loses the team. It's also true that a team's best player can ruin a season as well if he doesn't support the coach. I felt that Melo did that to MDA but he played hard for Woody so that wasn't a factor in Woody's poor performance. IMO Woody did a lot of damage to his own situation. But keeping perspective that team was not destined to win a title but making the playoffs shouldn't have been out of the question. So IMO Woody didn't have a high bar. Just steer his team to the playoffs. That's all he had to do at the least. Not exactly hard in the East with the talent he had.

And thats what Woody did when he had support from ALL directions. last year he had zero support, and the entire team failed.

nixluva wrote:I think it's not too much to ask of Fish and this team to make the playoffs either. He's got the full support of his PRES and GM. His best player is fully on board. Things are setup so that Fish should be successful. If he fails I think it would be fair to lay blame on his shoulders. That is barring any extenuating circumstances.

Here we go with the ready excuses. 1st time coaches dont always make the playoffs, but Phil believes they should. i think they NEED to to attract any decent free agents as no one credible is coming to join a loser.

How come players are never held to any form of standard in your eyes? I know this isnt your reality but players are the ones who put the ball in the hoop and players are the ones who make attempts to stop the opponent from doing so. When you dont have capable players then expect to lose, which is exactly what they did last year.

This current roster is quite similar to last years featuring most notably expect weak defense at the point and doormat defense in the paint. The two most inefficient scorers are still here, along with a collection of flawed injury prone guys all over the bench.

If this team doesnt make the playoffs...look no further than the roster. And when you look at the roster...look at Phil.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:1st of all very few players just KNOW what it takes to win. In fact a lot of coaches don't know what it takes to lead players to win. I'm not saying it's all coaching.

Carmelo Anthony has been playing organized basketball pretty much his entire life. He went to Towson, then known for it's basketball program, and then ended up at Oak Hill, which is essentially a future NBA feeder program. He helped Syracuse win a National Championship. He is a three time Olympian and a 12 year NBA veteran. He has played for some of the most successful coaches in NBA history, and for Coach K with Team USA. I fail to believe that in all that time, he is now learning things from Derek Fisher for the first time, that Fisher is suddenly mixing some magical potion to unlock all of Melo's wonderful basketball gifts from the Gods that was previously untapped.

If Fisher can get this squad playing the right way, with fundamental team ball, then good. Good for the Knicks and good for the Knick's chances of winning some games. But I'm not going to sit here and applaud the team and Melo for having to reboot from scratch things that players were learning in high school in a competitive basketball environment.

Mike Woodson has been around basketball his whole life. Played for Bobby Knight and the Hoosiers ( Like that alone isn't some pressure on a young man) Played over a decade in the NBA. Was an assistant for nearly a decade, winning a ring with the Pistons, spent 6 years as top dog in Atlanta, improving their record each year. But suddenly as soon as he gets to the Knicks, you want to push the narrative that he's some bumbling fool who has no concept of winning or how to lead or how to get the respect of players. Because he must have spent lucking out in Atlanta for six years as a doormat?

Do I agree with everything Woodson did as the NY coach? No. But even I think it's some myopic happy horsehit, I mean some hard line, out of the edge of reality homerrific spin to trash a man who spent his entire life playing and coaching the game at a high level, just so a three time Olympian doesn't have to be accountable because he doesn't give a flying **** about playing defense. Or making his team mates better. Or playing fundamental ball.

Something I like that Herb Brooks said ( the leader of the ultimate "team" in US sports history, the Miracle On Ice coach) is that the name on the front of the jersey means a hell of a lot more than the name on the back.

When I call you a homer, I'm not calling you a Knicks homer, I'm calling you a Melo homer, because your narrative keeps changing ( the team can't play defense, no it can, this guy is a bad defender, no no, he's really a good defender, it's the coaches fault, well it's not really all the coaches fault, the players should be accountable, but hey not really in the full sense of accountable, you know?) to make sure Melo doesn't have to be held to the fire for failing to act like a franchise player.

If Fish and Zen Master have to babysit this team and it's "leader" on the court to get them to play the game the right way, then that's a step in the right direction, but just don't ask some of us to treat, that veteran players needed it to get this bad and this far and did nothing about it on their own, as anything other than totally pathetic on all levels.

I've read that some feel the triangle offense is unguardable. If thats the case, Phil would never had lost a playoff series, and he's lost two finals with a ridiculous amount of talent both times to inferior competition.

I get it, every year it's the cool fan thing to do to believe things will definitely get better, no way things could fail.....yet they do. Reality trumps all of that.

The only reason why this year could be viewed as a success is by comparison to how bad last year was....that bar will be there the whole season.

There is a reason why the Knicks couldnt attract good talent the last time they cap space....they stunk the year before.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fisher have any clear weaknesses as well. It will all come to the light with a team that doesnt have top tier talent. but they can have a measure of success....just temper the expectations.

I've read that some feel the triangle offense is unguardable. If thats the case, Phil would never had lost a playoff series, and he's lost two finals with a ridiculous amount of talent both times to inferior competition.

I get it, every year it's the cool fan thing to do to believe things will definitely get better, no way things could fail.....yet they do. Reality trumps all of that.

The only reason why this year could be viewed as a success is by comparison to how bad last year was....that bar will be there the whole season.

There is a reason why the Knicks couldnt attract good talent the last time they cap space....they stunk the year before.

I get the idea that you simply don't do any kind of analysis of the makeup of the roster and how they should fit in this system. It's not just that we have Phil, Fish and staff but also there IS TALENT ON THIS ROSTER!!! It just so happens that Phil made some meaningful tweaks to the roster and if this group is coached up they should be able to maximize the talent we have and the whole should be better than the sum of its parts. That's the whole point of employing this team oriented system.

It's not a fate accompli that this team will fail because... Reality! Coaches and players do have a say in what the final outcome will be. 2 yrs ago this team performed above expectations. This year this team is being prepped to function more as a unit. That is a very important factor in how this team performs. They'll be directly competing with the Nets and Raptors for this Div. that would not be a small thing.

Fisher also isn't looking to maximize any "talents" but rather getting guys to play team basketball which gives everyone a shot to contribute. He especially wants Melo to do more by doing less of what he used to.,,,less "isolation jab step dribble dribble block with no foul", but more quick decisions, move without the ball...things that melo has NOT been doing in his career so far.

Fisher knows that this group isnt that good of a group, but he also knows every NBA player can do fundamental basketball if they want to and are instructed to.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fisher have any clear weaknesses as well. It will all come to the light with a team that doesnt have top tier talent. but they can have a measure of success....just temper the expectations.

I've read that some feel the triangle offense is unguardable. If thats the case, Phil would never had lost a playoff series, and he's lost two finals with a ridiculous amount of talent both times to inferior competition.

I get it, every year it's the cool fan thing to do to believe things will definitely get better, no way things could fail.....yet they do. Reality trumps all of that.

The only reason why this year could be viewed as a success is by comparison to how bad last year was....that bar will be there the whole season.

There is a reason why the Knicks couldnt attract good talent the last time they cap space....they stunk the year before.

I get the idea that you simply don't do any kind of analysis of the makeup of the roster and how they should fit in this system. It's not just that we have Phil, Fish and staff but also there IS TALENT ON THIS ROSTER!!! It just so happens that Phil made some meaningful tweaks to the roster and if this group is coached up they should be able to maximize the talent we have and the whole should be better than the sum of its parts. That's the whole point of employing this team oriented system.

It's not a fate accompli that this team will fail because... Reality! Coaches and players do have a say in what the final outcome will be. 2 yrs ago this team performed above expectations. This year this team is being prepped to function more as a unit. That is a very important factor in how this team performs. They'll be directly competing with the Nets and Raptors for this Div. that would not be a small thing.

Actually the things I've pointed out most Fisher is addressing. Fisher had to start his camp with basic basketball most notably defense something I recall you especially was touting as this wont be a defensive minded team. Fisher disagrees with you so please fall in line with the program, this may be too advanced for you.

Fisher also isn't looking to maximize any "talents" but rather getting guys to play team basketball which gives everyone a shot to contribute. He especially wants Melo to do more by doing less of what he used to.,,,less "isolation jab step dribble dribble block with no foul", but more quick decisions, move without the ball...things that melo has NOT been doing in his career so far.

Fisher knows that this group isnt that good of a group, but he also knows every NBA player can do fundamental basketball if they want to and are instructed to.

I said this team's Strength isn't defense in that we aren't loaded with great defensive talent but I also said they need to improve and get back up to the top half of the league in D. You just don't really read what I say but rather hear what you want to hear in order to fit your narrative that I somehow don't get it. Stop trying to make me sound unreasonable.

You're the one that isn't in sync with Fish who said before camp that he felt this was a playoff team and he liked the talent. It's ok if you're depressed and can't see the real positives going on with your favorite team. I'll be here to keep talking to you and get you to cheer up

Fisher expects elite defense, listening is not your best suit. Nobody but you is preaching middle of the pack defense.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fisher have any clear weaknesses as well. It will all come to the light with a team that doesnt have top tier talent. but they can have a measure of success....just temper the expectations.

I've read that some feel the triangle offense is unguardable. If thats the case, Phil would never had lost a playoff series, and he's lost two finals with a ridiculous amount of talent both times to inferior competition.

I get it, every year it's the cool fan thing to do to believe things will definitely get better, no way things could fail.....yet they do. Reality trumps all of that.

The only reason why this year could be viewed as a success is by comparison to how bad last year was....that bar will be there the whole season.

There is a reason why the Knicks couldnt attract good talent the last time they cap space....they stunk the year before.

I get the idea that you simply don't do any kind of analysis of the makeup of the roster and how they should fit in this system. It's not just that we have Phil, Fish and staff but also there IS TALENT ON THIS ROSTER!!! It just so happens that Phil made some meaningful tweaks to the roster and if this group is coached up they should be able to maximize the talent we have and the whole should be better than the sum of its parts. That's the whole point of employing this team oriented system.

It's not a fate accompli that this team will fail because... Reality! Coaches and players do have a say in what the final outcome will be. 2 yrs ago this team performed above expectations. This year this team is being prepped to function more as a unit. That is a very important factor in how this team performs. They'll be directly competing with the Nets and Raptors for this Div. that would not be a small thing.

Actually the things I've pointed out most Fisher is addressing. Fisher had to start his camp with basic basketball most notably defense something I recall you especially was touting as this wont be a defensive minded team. Fisher disagrees with you so please fall in line with the program, this may be too advanced for you.

Fisher also isn't looking to maximize any "talents" but rather getting guys to play team basketball which gives everyone a shot to contribute. He especially wants Melo to do more by doing less of what he used to.,,,less "isolation jab step dribble dribble block with no foul", but more quick decisions, move without the ball...things that melo has NOT been doing in his career so far.

Fisher knows that this group isnt that good of a group, but he also knows every NBA player can do fundamental basketball if they want to and are instructed to.

I said this team's Strength isn't defense in that we aren't loaded with great defensive talent but I also said they need to improve and get back up to the top half of the league in D. You just don't really read what I say but rather hear what you want to hear in order to fit your narrative that I somehow don't get it. Stop trying to make me sound unreasonable.

You're the one that isn't in sync with Fish who said before camp that he felt this was a playoff team and he liked the talent. It's ok if you're depressed and can't see the real positives going on with your favorite team. I'll be here to keep talking to you and get you to cheer up

Fisher expects elite defense, listening is not your best suit. Nobody but you is preaching middle of the pack defense.

Why create a straw man just to try and argue? Fish wanting an Elite Defense has nothing to do with my saying this team doesn't have a lot of top defensive talent. I'm just being reasonable in suggesting the team at least needs to get in the top 15 or better. You think I wouldn't be pleased if they did better than expected?

You're doing that projecting thing were you try to put your own negative thoughts onto someone else. You're the one that doesn't believe in this team in ANY end of the court!!! Don't try to twist things to make it seem like you actually like this team's chances of being good this year.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Phil and Fisher have any clear weaknesses as well. It will all come to the light with a team that doesnt have top tier talent. but they can have a measure of success....just temper the expectations.

I've read that some feel the triangle offense is unguardable. If thats the case, Phil would never had lost a playoff series, and he's lost two finals with a ridiculous amount of talent both times to inferior competition.

I get it, every year it's the cool fan thing to do to believe things will definitely get better, no way things could fail.....yet they do. Reality trumps all of that.

The only reason why this year could be viewed as a success is by comparison to how bad last year was....that bar will be there the whole season.

There is a reason why the Knicks couldnt attract good talent the last time they cap space....they stunk the year before.

I get the idea that you simply don't do any kind of analysis of the makeup of the roster and how they should fit in this system. It's not just that we have Phil, Fish and staff but also there IS TALENT ON THIS ROSTER!!! It just so happens that Phil made some meaningful tweaks to the roster and if this group is coached up they should be able to maximize the talent we have and the whole should be better than the sum of its parts. That's the whole point of employing this team oriented system.

It's not a fate accompli that this team will fail because... Reality! Coaches and players do have a say in what the final outcome will be. 2 yrs ago this team performed above expectations. This year this team is being prepped to function more as a unit. That is a very important factor in how this team performs. They'll be directly competing with the Nets and Raptors for this Div. that would not be a small thing.

Actually the things I've pointed out most Fisher is addressing. Fisher had to start his camp with basic basketball most notably defense something I recall you especially was touting as this wont be a defensive minded team. Fisher disagrees with you so please fall in line with the program, this may be too advanced for you.

Fisher also isn't looking to maximize any "talents" but rather getting guys to play team basketball which gives everyone a shot to contribute. He especially wants Melo to do more by doing less of what he used to.,,,less "isolation jab step dribble dribble block with no foul", but more quick decisions, move without the ball...things that melo has NOT been doing in his career so far.

Fisher knows that this group isnt that good of a group, but he also knows every NBA player can do fundamental basketball if they want to and are instructed to.

I said this team's Strength isn't defense in that we aren't loaded with great defensive talent but I also said they need to improve and get back up to the top half of the league in D. You just don't really read what I say but rather hear what you want to hear in order to fit your narrative that I somehow don't get it. Stop trying to make me sound unreasonable.

You're the one that isn't in sync with Fish who said before camp that he felt this was a playoff team and he liked the talent. It's ok if you're depressed and can't see the real positives going on with your favorite team. I'll be here to keep talking to you and get you to cheer up

Fisher expects elite defense, listening is not your best suit. Nobody but you is preaching middle of the pack defense.

Why create a straw man just to try and argue? Fish wanting an Elite Defense has nothing to do with my saying this team doesn't have a lot of top defensive talent. I'm just being reasonable in suggesting the team at least needs to get in the top 15 or better. You think I wouldn't be pleased if they did better than expected?

You're doing that projecting thing were you try to put your own negative thoughts onto someone else. You're the one that doesn't believe in this team in ANY end of the court!!! Don't try to twist things to make it seem like you actually like this team's chances of being good this year.

I like the fact that Fisher expect them to play defense.

What I dont believe in is the offense matching the talent, the team has no talent worthy of competition, and the offense doesnt match the roster.

Personally I dont car what you think, you've been proven wrong so much, there's no pleasure in watching you be disappointed again.

Every year you think things will be great, then when they arent you blame everyone but the constant...the garbage players.

I'm not always wrong but it's easy to be negative like you when you have Dolan messing up any chance the team has had at meeting their relative expectations. You think it's wrong to expect this team to match expectations based on the talent they have? What is wrong with your take is that you assume I'm saying the team will be great every year and I never say that. At most I'm usually just a bit higher than the consensus expects from this team. At least I'm being true to what I think the team is capable of rather than hating on the team cuz we don't have 3 superstars.

The team actually made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years. Just 2 yrs ago we had a good regular season. It could've been better if not for Dolan IMO. He is behind a lot of the problems. Behind the GM, Roster and Coaching decisions was Dolan. Let's hope he really does stay out of Phil's way.

NardDogNation wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Quincy Acy develops into a key player for us and even starts this season. The is your prototypical hustle/energy guy but he seems like he has developed a jump shot. I expect he, Jason Smith, Cole Aldrich and Amar'e to lock up the big man minutes for us.

I like him too ... maybe its because of the dirty hustle beard.

Who would he start instead of? Can't see that at all?

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Quincy Acy develops into a key player for us and even starts this season. The is your prototypical hustle/energy guy but he seems like he has developed a jump shot. I expect he, Jason Smith, Cole Aldrich and Amar'e to lock up the big man minutes for us.

I like him too ... maybe its because of the dirty hustle beard.

Who would he start instead of? Can't see that at all?

Our frontline figures to be pretty soft and Acy is the only frontline player we have with any grit. By that token alone, I think he deserves a rotation spot. Him being a starter might be a bit much on my part but no one else, aside from Amar'e, has been a surefire starter. Because of that, I think its a realistic possibility that he starts.

I can't see Acy starting. I think he's perfect off the bench. We've got too many bigs to think a guy Acy's size is gonna start ahead of them. So far reports have STAT, Dalembert and Jason being tried out as starters. I can't imagine Acy gettin in there but if he really proved he was helping the group play at its best then I'm sure Fish would do it. I'm just not convinced yet.

Seeing all of the new players in this new system is going to make this preseason very interesting.

knickscity wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:Woodson a good coach lol Woodson was stobborn and couldn't adapt to the success of players that were riding the bench...
For most of last years season potato heads starting line up of... Tyson,melo,shump,prigs,Felton only one of those players is worthy of starter minutes.... Woodson cost us big time... Our second and third best players in stat and jr didn't get the minutes they deserved till it was too late..we kept loosing and loosing with that starting 5 till Tyson went out..cole came in and had multiple double doubles and when Tyson came back cole was not rewarded in minutes well deserved. It took amare till the end of the year for Woodson to realize he was better then shump for the starting line up and melo was getting banged up for playing out of position... And it took even longer for Woodson to realize his best sg was jr smith... The Knicks looks like the team they were supposed to be with amare,and smith in the starting line up... And it was already too late ...the bull **** min restriction on amare was dropped after the first 25 games... Woodson just didn't want to play him... It also killed me to see Tyson dogging it out there night after night with no punishment... Woodson would come back and say Tyson was his best defender ...which was laughable. Our best team out there last year was cole,amare,melo,jr,Felton...but Woodson just wouldn't allow it till Phil came in and Woodson was on the hot seat.... Woodson = stubborn, he was by far the worst head coach in the nba last year... The sad part was he knew what the best starting line up was... He just wanted to play his favorite players for personal reasons ... He was well deserved of being fired and I can garrentee he will not be a head coach in the nba any time soon...he really showed his true colors without the advice of j Kidd...

Honestly this post is entirely bad, but here's some outtakes.....

JR would have been the starter had his dumb ass not been suspended and also postponed his surgery....cant blame Woodson for either.

The only reason amare looked decent down the stretch is because he barely player prior to...had he, he'd been hurt.

Lol at you for saying our starting lineup only had one player worthy then later on post the same player twice.

Lol one thing I don't blame Woodson for is the pg position ... Ray was the worst starting pg but there wasn't a option after him tore murry lol not... Prigs is a back up or third at best...

Yes jr was suspended it's still shocking how long it took Woodson to change a line up that was not working and getting blown out ..

Also amare said the min limits were off after 25 games and woody still had our second best player playing 15 to 20 a game... It almost felt like woody just didn't like stat.. He'd rather give the minutes to melo at the 4 and play shump out of position at the 3 ... He was unwilling to change even though it was clear it was not working ...

I think not making the playoffs was clearly on Woodson ... Once amare and jr were in the starting line up we went 14w6L imagine if woody put amare and jr in the starting line up after the all star break ... Prob would have made the playoffs...

Yea I rambled in the first post .. I did it on my iPhone ...I just wanted to make it clear woody was awful as a head coach ...