gunsnewing wrote:^Good post F5

I don't want my rebuttals to be understood as me defending Felton to dismiss him of accountability

As if he wasn't a problem//// he was an ingredient in the goulash of slop

F500ONE wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:^Good post F5

I don't want my rebuttals to be understood as me defending Felton to dismiss him of accountability

As if he wasn't a problem//// he was an ingredient in the goulash of slop

Oh trust me I got your point on Felton. He is awful but so was $124m Melo. Amazing how. Melo is dissolved of any blame. People have short lived memories

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Calderon playing off the ball, high IQ, and sharp shooting is more of his attributes then being a ball dominant pass first PG. Monte Ellis controlled the ball way more then Calderon in Dallas. Calderon held a 16% usage rate in 30mins of play compared to Monte's 26%. The triangle fits nicely with his game offensively. Reguardless of any of that Calderon is said to be a strong team guy and locker room guy.

Firstly usage rates are based on player who the plays are used for....calderon's 16% is consistent with his career, ironically monta ellis usage is as well, so thats really not a point to be making. They both played in similar roles as they normally have their who careers, just a different system. the leadership aspect is to be determined...he wasnt that dude in toronto, and as Knicks fans we've already seen folks change from supposed "leaders" like Tyson Chandler.

newyorknewyork wrote:The Lakers post Shaq weren't an already built team. They were a lottery team. Phil chose to add Calderon, Jason Smith, and resign Carmelo. So unless Phil's evaluation skills have completely betrayed him, these players must fit what he is trying to do.

Lamar Odom except for one strong year in Mia was a major underachiever for his career. Paul Gasol's stock was plummeting hard in Memphis. Andrew Bynum's career has disappeared since Phil left and was often injured with the Lakers as well. I think they won a championship without him. Kobe Bryant was shooting 30 times a game demanding to be traded the years prior. Artest with his talent was a nutcase who was on his I think his 5th team.

Phil's best attributes as a coach are what make his potential as a President so high.

When I spoke of the Lakers I was referrring to when Phil FIRST arrived, and they certainly werent a lottery team when they had Shaq, Kobe and Fisher. The second time around they were, but certainly wasnt gonna stay that way, and likely wouldnt have had Rudy T coached the whole season and Kobe wasnt injured during a portion of his time there near the end with the ankle. keep in mind they were 24-19 when Rudy T quit, good enough for 7th seed if all things ended right then. Phil wasnt really judged on his abilities while the team had basically just Kobe, but yeah he did get them to play good enough to qualify for the playoffs, which very well could happen here.

Disagree with the player assessment piece...Odom has always played well during his days in LA even without Phil, just look at his efficiency in LA vs any team he played on. maybe he underachieved...maybe not.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

Memphis was headed to transistion, they reached as far as they could with Pau. Diddn't Pau last full year in memphis team have 5 rookies? but even when traded that trade was viewed as an absolute ROBBERY by LA.

I beleive the year Bynum didnt play in the playoffs was the year they lost...they win titles in the other two under Phil when he did play.

I wasn't arguing if Calderon was a leader or not. Only that he isn't a ball dominant guard and excels away from the ball. He isn't sacrificing his game for the triangle.

I was just stating that Phil wasn't always given championship rosters. Odom def underachieved, but the point being that all these players had flaws and baggage with them just the same. Odom couldn't shoot, inconsistent, easily distracted and liked to smoke weed rather then work on his game. That was his rap in LAC. Gasol was emotionally fragile, Bynum injury prone, Kobe selfish ball jock.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game

Nice.

these guys are so funny. They are only here to hate on the Knicks and Melo and even screw *that* up. Cant make this stuff up

who kidnapped old fishmike?

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Calderon playing off the ball, high IQ, and sharp shooting is more of his attributes then being a ball dominant pass first PG. Monte Ellis controlled the ball way more then Calderon in Dallas. Calderon held a 16% usage rate in 30mins of play compared to Monte's 26%. The triangle fits nicely with his game offensively. Reguardless of any of that Calderon is said to be a strong team guy and locker room guy.

Firstly usage rates are based on player who the plays are used for....calderon's 16% is consistent with his career, ironically monta ellis usage is as well, so thats really not a point to be making. They both played in similar roles as they normally have their who careers, just a different system. the leadership aspect is to be determined...he wasnt that dude in toronto, and as Knicks fans we've already seen folks change from supposed "leaders" like Tyson Chandler.

newyorknewyork wrote:The Lakers post Shaq weren't an already built team. They were a lottery team. Phil chose to add Calderon, Jason Smith, and resign Carmelo. So unless Phil's evaluation skills have completely betrayed him, these players must fit what he is trying to do.

Lamar Odom except for one strong year in Mia was a major underachiever for his career. Paul Gasol's stock was plummeting hard in Memphis. Andrew Bynum's career has disappeared since Phil left and was often injured with the Lakers as well. I think they won a championship without him. Kobe Bryant was shooting 30 times a game demanding to be traded the years prior. Artest with his talent was a nutcase who was on his I think his 5th team.

Phil's best attributes as a coach are what make his potential as a President so high.

When I spoke of the Lakers I was referrring to when Phil FIRST arrived, and they certainly werent a lottery team when they had Shaq, Kobe and Fisher. The second time around they were, but certainly wasnt gonna stay that way, and likely wouldnt have had Rudy T coached the whole season and Kobe wasnt injured during a portion of his time there near the end with the ankle. keep in mind they were 24-19 when Rudy T quit, good enough for 7th seed if all things ended right then. Phil wasnt really judged on his abilities while the team had basically just Kobe, but yeah he did get them to play good enough to qualify for the playoffs, which very well could happen here.

Disagree with the player assessment piece...Odom has always played well during his days in LA even without Phil, just look at his efficiency in LA vs any team he played on. maybe he underachieved...maybe not.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html

Memphis was headed to transistion, they reached as far as they could with Pau. Diddn't Pau last full year in memphis team have 5 rookies? but even when traded that trade was viewed as an absolute ROBBERY by LA.

I beleive the year Bynum didnt play in the playoffs was the year they lost...they win titles in the other two under Phil when he did play.

I wasn't arguing if Calderon was a leader or not. Only that he isn't a ball dominant guard and excels away from the ball. He isn't sacrificing his game for the triangle.

I was just stating that Phil wasn't always given championship rosters. Odom def underachieved, but the point being that all these players had flaws and baggage with them just the same. Odom couldn't shoot, inconsistent, easily distracted and liked to smoke weed rather then work on his game. That was his rap in LAC. Gasol was emotionally fragile, Bynum injury prone, Kobe selfish ball jock.

The difference in the players you're naming is that they performed on the court on both ends and were comeplete players...they can all pass, score, play defense, rebound, post up. Phil didnt inherit guys who didnt already fit the triangle.

F500ONE wrote:
Actually Felton played very well in the Boston series as did Shump and Prgigoni.

He played fairly decent in the Pacers series with exception to two games

So you're lying here

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2753/year/2013/raymond-felton

I don't know what "lie" I am supposed to have told. We know the Knicks won the Boston series, so there can be no "blame" for losing a series the team won. I never said that Felton NEVER played well or NEVER had good games. What kind of nonsense point are you trying to make? Now when it comes to the Pacers series. My actual point about consistency still holds. In one loss he was 1-8 and another loss he was 0-7. But this is all besides the point cuz you're trying to boil my argument down to the 2 playoff series we had 2 yrs ago and that really isn't what this is about and it's not just about the scoring performances Felton had in the playoffs. I do believe my overarching point was about last season compared to this season in terms of the team's leadership!!!

Just cuz Felton had some very good playoff performances doesn't erase the season he had last year. It doesn't change the fact that he's not the kind of leader that Jose is. Overall it doesn't change the fact that this is about Dolan, Woody and Felton vs Phil, Fish and Jose. My point is that there's reason to be more confident in this team because Phil, Fish and Jose are a better trio to lead the team than Dolan, Woody and Felton. It's not even close. Heck even Phil, Fish and Felton isn't as good as Phil, Fish and Jose.

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:
Actually Felton played very well in the Boston series as did Shump and Prgigoni.

He played fairly decent in the Pacers series with exception to two games

So you're lying here

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2753/year/2013/raymond-felton

I don't know what "lie" I am supposed to have told. We know the Knicks won the Boston series, so there can be no "blame" for losing a series the team won. I never said that Felton NEVER played well or NEVER had good games. What kind of nonsense point are you trying to make? Now when it comes to the Pacers series. My actual point about consistency still holds. In one loss he was 1-8 and another loss he was 0-7. But this is all besides the point cuz you're trying to boil my argument down to the 2 playoff series we had 2 yrs ago and that really isn't what this is about and it's not just about the scoring performances Felton had in the playoffs. I do believe my overarching point was about last season compared to this season in terms of the team's leadership!!!

Just cuz Felton had some very good playoff performances doesn't erase the season he had last year. It doesn't change the fact that he's not the kind of leader that Jose is. Overall it doesn't change the fact that this is about Dolan, Woody and Felton vs Phil, Fish and Jose. My point is that there's reason to be more confident in this team because Phil, Fish and Jose are a better trio to lead the team than Dolan, Woody and Felton. It's not even close. Heck even Phil, Fish and Felton isn't as good as Phil, Fish and Jose.

Thank you for nailing yourself to the cross-stake.

So this thread was always about Felton vs Jose as I figured, in an nutshell focal Felton

You said Felton didn't play well "consistently" in the playoffs which turns out he had 2 bad games.

Yet you never did due diligence on other players in the playoffs, who delivered far worst "consistent" performances

You say it's not all about offense and I've questioned you before about the remaining defensive burdens

You clicked on Felton's link I see to catch he had 2 bad recitals, but what about Melo?

Why remiss of a long winded breakdown Melo hindering team success

You say it isn't about the playoffs exclusively, it's a broad analysis.

Okay I progressed to show you numbers of another guard who performed astonishingly bad last year/////you never once guessed or asked who it was

It was Shumpert btw, go back a page or two and look at how bad his regular season numbers were

I'm sorry you decided to fill a bucket of water full of holes.

Post in a more nonpartisan manner and be equitable throughout

THIS IS ABOUT LEADERSHIP!!! It's not about every single minor player on the team and how they played from night to night. Why not focus on Toure Murray? I'm focusing on the leadership of the team. Dolan, Woody and Felton were responsible for a large part of what this team did. The decisions they made had a larger effect on the rest of the team and how it functioned by virtue of the roles they had. The PG was a huge part of what this team did. Going forward Phil, Fish and Jose will be directing a lot of what happens with this team and it's a better trio in that regard, all the way around.

nixluva wrote:So now we have corrected the issues at Head Coach and PG.

I disagree.

I do believe there is reason for strong hope for the NY Knicks in the future, but it has nothing to do with jettisoning Mike Woodson and/or Raymond Felton.

The current CBA, negotiated during the last labor war, has made it much much harder for owners and GM's to make decisions that are the equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot, then sticking that gun in your mouth and blowing out your brains.

Max contracts are much shorter now. No more 9 year 200 million dollar potential long term deals available. The top stars will get the 5 year max deals, but all the middle range players are looking at 2-3 year deals. These are much easier to dump, trade and get rid of in the new CBA. Teams who have financial muscle no longer can simply keep spending wildly over the cap and luxury tax line anymore, not without massive penalty.

There will almost certainly be a massive labor war and likely a lockout in 2017. Part of it will center around the much discussed lottery reform and the owners desire to push for widespread usage and normalization of non guaranteed contracts and a hard cap. The NBA very much desires what the NFL model has done - Make it so any team can reload, rearm and rebuild into a playoff team in two offseasons and potentially rearm into a contender in three to four. While that might be a bit overly optimistic, you saw the players union get totally smoked in the last labor fight. They had to give back lots of money and give lots of concessions. The top tier players still have a lot of power, but that's going to change.

The best thing that happened to the Knicks was not Phil Jackson or Derek Fisher ( though I think those are positive moves in the right direction) I think the most positive thing is that the current CBA limited Melo from strong arming the Knicks into giving him on of those Agent Zero/Kenyon Martin/Rashard Lewis type franchise killing 9-10 year contracts.

Do you know why NBA coaches take the huge hits in the press and media ( which in turn incites fans and homers into anti coach tirades?) Because when Adidas signs a guy like Dwight Howard to a giant endorsement deal, and when they buy ad time during ESPN commercial breaks and sports magazine ad space, they have the power to use that leverage to mute criticism of their client/superstar player.

How often do you hear "The Decision" mentioned anymore? In the press? On ESPN? By SI? On TNT? In the few sports magazines left? During podcasts and radio shows? It doesn't get mentioned much because it's been suppressed. So many companies have or want LeBron James as the face of their brand or product, and so many of them buy ad space and commercial time and have a huge stable of pro athletes as clients that they simply say No. No, you cannot criticize my client. Not in public. Not on the air. Not in print.

Melo wanted D'Antoni gone, because he knew and CAA knew that the Pringles offense would be point guard centric. So Lin had to go and Pringles had to go. So Melo dogged it. Wouldn't play defense. But how many sports writers had the balls or their editors or sports shows or sports articles just came out and said it. Melo dogged it to get his coach fired because it wasn't want Melo wanted. And with ESPN and the NBA wanting to protect the marketability of their individual stars, things like Dwayne Wade giving up in defense and not even trying during the Finals doesn't get discussed.

Instead, lets BLAME THE MOTHER FUCKING COACH. Because it's easier to blame the coach than to point out that you have the wrong players or your players are giving absolute dog **** type effort on the court.

Fundamentally, this is the problem with Raymond Felton. He was the product of team building inefficiency.

Mining Jeremy Lin as a street free agent making peanuts and holding his rights and right to match was good team building type moves. You want to get undervalued assets out there to help build your roster. But the Knicks lost Lin for NOTHING.

In the modern NBA, you can't do that. You need to maximize every possible asset possible. Look at the Lakers. Got NOTHING for Dwight Howard leaving them as a free agent. They got nothing for Pau Gasol leaving them.

Why was Morey of the Rockets able to get Harden and Howard and still had a chance this off season to possible get Bosh or Melo?

Because he kept churning assets and kept increasing his stockpile. Getting into other people's trades and getting a player here, a player there, a pick here, a pick there. Always flipping and moving and trying to get a quarter to two dimes and get a dollar for three quarters. Slow and steady he amassed picks, cap space/flexibility and young players with upside on favorable deals. He got Asik, a top 5 defensive rim protector for open cap space. Same for Lin. He got Parsons in the 2nd round. He got Beverley as a street free agent. He has so much stockpile that he pretty much gave away the Morris twins for nothing.

Raymond Felton existed on the Knicks roster based on bad roster and resource management. Dumping Felton does not solve the root problem. Does adding Jackson fix that? Time will tell.

Mike Woodson existed on the Knicks coaching staff based on bad coaching management from the front office derived from bending the knee Game Of Thrones style to Melo's inability to function within a team basketball concept. Dumping Woodson doesn't fix the problem that Melo only seems to thrive play Iso/Hero ball and is a ballstopping shotjacker who might put up good stats but doesn't operate with the type of efficiency needed to make the team around him better. Are we to blame Mike Woodson that he was the last man standing after D'Antoni had to go based on Melo's whims?

D'Antoni doesn't coach defense! Easy for the rabid NY media and homers to say, except he didn't sign STAT to a horrible uninsured contract that is untradable, for a player with no low post game, is clueless on defense, had injury worries coming in and can't defend the rim and chews up a major portion of the cap. He also didn't trade for Melo, coughing up tons of assets, choking out cap space and them butchering the Billups situation.

During Linsanity, it wasn't just Lin killing the league, the Knicks played GOOD SOLID TEAM BALL AND TEAM DEFENSE. And maybe they would have kept playing it, but poor so sad Melo wasn't the center of attention anymore, so he had to dog it and be a coach killer.

Do you know why the Spurs win? Their key star players, Duncan and Parker and Ginobili buy into team basketball. All are willing to subvert their individual success for team success. You don't need to cajol them to play defense, you don't need to negotiate with them to pass the ball, you don't need to cross your fingers and hope they come into the season in shape. You want to be the Alpha Dog, you need to carry the burden of leadership. Meaning no one should be in better condition than you. ( Melo's defense didn't improve because he cared more or was in better shape, it shifted because he moved to power forward and no longer had to get burned by other teams wing players night after night)

Lin, for all his good and bad faults as a player, was a leader. All wins were credited to the team. When the Knicks lost, he said blame me, put it on my back. Despite never having those kind of massive minutes, he got thrown out there again and again, no complaints and went to war. Encouraged his team mates, took charges, lead by example on and off the court. Do you realize how pathetic it is that some kid in his 2nd year, who barely has been in the league, was more of a leader in a few weeks than Melo has been for his entire career.

Some NFL players have it right. If you need quotes and negative comments from other teams and players to "motivate you" then what the hell are you doing in the game at all? You shouldn't need a 2nd year undrafted free agent to embarrass your lack of leadership or a coach with 11 rings to mold you into a leader. No one needs to hold a gun to Tim Duncan's head to consistently pursue excellence. So it's Mike Woodson's fault that Melo's midsection looks like a giant chulapa? That he seems to like his reality TV show and the NY lifestyle more than working on his D?

The Knicks need a mother ****ing leader. Just because you sell a lot of shoes or you make an All Star team doesn't make you a leader. And they haven't had one since Lin. Woodson and Felton, cashing those guys in doesn't change that. It doesn't change the issue that a real leader would have kicked Felton's teeth in for being fat and lazy and getting into trouble off the court.

Melo isn't going to save the Knicks, the league is going to keep changing the rules and regulations and standards until anyone can contend and be protected from themselves from sinking their team.

I'll give some of you guys credit though. How you manage to watch Knicks games on TV while simultaneously licking Melo's balls all the time, that's some real feat of multi tasking.

Yes, let's blame Mike Woodson. Let's do that like good sheep, just like CAA and the media want us to do.

knickscity wrote:I'm still trying to figure out since when did Calderon become a leader in the NBA?

So am I!

This thread resembles a fugitive on the run

Nix keeps hiding behind a cloak of misunderstanding but we all see this thread for what it is

May add more in a bit