fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:$122,000,000.00

What happens if Carmelo misses time? His contract becomes albatross but like I said par for the course for the Knicks. Fingers crossed I guess

your cutting his checks now? Is he playing on surgically repaired joints? Everything in life has a downside. Everything has risk. This is why you dont trade draft picks right? How many future first rounders has Phil traded away yet?

That is true. I don't think Phil would panic like our precious GM's and starphuch for our picks. Looking at it like that maxing out Melo isn't the end of the world for now.

I would love the opportunity to do what the spurs did 17yrs ago when David Robinson went down. Cheap young superstar talent

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:And nix there are reports the cap could hit $80mm after the tv deal.

Yeah I mean people need to get off this obsession with one players salary. That isn't going to stop us from doing anything. What kills you is contracts like STAT's and Bargs. Since we only have them for one season and maybe less, that isn't worth biotching about. NEW F'N DAY!!! We aren't in cap hell anymore and we have talent and picks in the future. This is about what Phil and his staff can do from here to put together a winning team using every option draft picks, trades, FA's alike.

Would you continue to feel this way if Melo needs shoulder surgery or tears an ACL in the first 40 games? The reason we don't like this type of contract is it then becomes an albatross for this franchise for the next 5 years. Melo at the max is being overpaid no matter how you spin it. Melo at the max and injured means we will never compete for anything and we won't be allowed to get better. Apparently going thru this with Amare clearly want enough to figure this out. We are paying someone who will only delivery a championship IF he buys in, IF he changes his style of play, IF he plays defense consistently, IF he gets enough support from the roster around it, IF he had another superstar on the team. Is it truly work the risk/reward trade off to pay a guy like that the max with that many IFs?

Amare was given his contract despite it not being able to be insured because of his knees. Doctors in Phoenix advised the Suns not to give amare a long term deal. Unlike Melo this offseason where any team with cap space wanted him, teams were not chasing amare with max deals. Only one guy was and he worked for the Knicks. If doctors said melo has a preexisting condition that most likely ends or limits his career then I think it is a bad deal. That hasn't happened. Phil could have pursued a sign and trade. He wanted melo.

I don't think you understood my post. I was pointing out what one injury to Melo would do to us by using Amare as an example. Not trying to imply that the two contracts are similar in how they got created.

Any transaction of this significance should be evaluated in terms of overall value. And the way to do that is to understand the risk versus reward potential. In my pinion the risks of this agreement far outweigh the reward potential.

We can look at any of those IFs and pick them apart all day long to make the case that I am being negative or Melo will overcome this or that or learn the system quickly. The point however is that the combination of all those risks are in my opinion insurmountable. Which is why I am and havealways been flat out against giving him anything over 90M for 5 years. And I would have preferred 80M.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

low impact player. Bulls might have gotten better with time gone. They certainly didnt miss him. Zero impact in Cle

Probably a little extreme to refer to Deng as 'low impact'.

Cleveland was a mess in every sense last year

Define low impact. What's the measuring criteria because Melo would have to be classified as the same if we're talking wins and losses as a Knick.

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:And nix there are reports the cap could hit $80mm after the tv deal.

Yeah I mean people need to get off this obsession with one players salary. That isn't going to stop us from doing anything. What kills you is contracts like STAT's and Bargs. Since we only have them for one season and maybe less, that isn't worth biotching about. NEW F'N DAY!!! We aren't in cap hell anymore and we have talent and picks in the future. This is about what Phil and his staff can do from here to put together a winning team using every option draft picks, trades, FA's alike.

Would you continue to feel this way if Melo needs shoulder surgery or tears an ACL in the first 40 games? The reason we don't like this type of contract is it then becomes an albatross for this franchise for the next 5 years. Melo at the max is being overpaid no matter how you spin it. Melo at the max and injured means we will never compete for anything and we won't be allowed to get better. Apparently going thru this with Amare clearly want enough to figure this out. We are paying someone who will only delivery a championship IF he buys in, IF he changes his style of play, IF he plays defense consistently, IF he gets enough support from the roster around him, IF he had another superstar on the team. Is it truly worth the risk/reward trade off to pay a guy like that the max with that many IFs?

IF any one of those iFs are not fulfilled we ate guaranteed to be mediocre for the next 5 years.

your right. We should focus on only signing players with no chance of ever getting hurt.

Whos been more durable? Melo or Derrick Rose? You cant plan around injuries and Melo has never missed time because of knees or ankles. When he did have to shut it down because of the shoulder he did rehab and I believe played through some pain to win ECF player of the month no?

Injuries is why you dont trade picks. If your big guns get hurt and disaster strikes the silver lining is you get more talent in the draft. Pretty straightforward.

Injury is just one of the many concerns I listed. If you don't account for a players age and injury potential and general wear and tear based on pay history before handing out 5/129 type deals then you obviously work for the New York Knicks.

Again the point was the for this particular player in this particular situation the combination of risks make this contract self defeatoing for the Knicks in my opinion. Comparing each risk to other players separately in completely different situations is somewhat naive.

Rose is younger, Lebron doesn't need to learn how to play defense or be unselfish, Amare was a even worse contact when it was signed. But each example is unique. I feel in THIS case given Melo's baggage this was to high a risk.

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:And nix there are reports the cap could hit $80mm after the tv deal.

Yeah I mean people need to get off this obsession with one players salary. That isn't going to stop us from doing anything. What kills you is contracts like STAT's and Bargs. Since we only have them for one season and maybe less, that isn't worth biotching about. NEW F'N DAY!!! We aren't in cap hell anymore and we have talent and picks in the future. This is about what Phil and his staff can do from here to put together a winning team using every option draft picks, trades, FA's alike.

Would you continue to feel this way if Melo needs shoulder surgery or tears an ACL in the first 40 games? The reason we don't like this type of contract is it then becomes an albatross for this franchise for the next 5 years. Melo at the max is being overpaid no matter how you spin it. Melo at the max and injured means we will never compete for anything and we won't be allowed to get better. Apparently going thru this with Amare clearly want enough to figure this out. We are paying someone who will only delivery a championship IF he buys in, IF he changes his style of play, IF he plays defense consistently, IF he gets enough support from the roster around him, IF he had another superstar on the team. Is it truly worth the risk/reward trade off to pay a guy like that the max with that many IFs?

IF any one of those iFs are not fulfilled we ate guaranteed to be mediocre for the next 5 years.

your right. We should focus on only signing players with no chance of ever getting hurt.

Whos been more durable? Melo or Derrick Rose? You cant plan around injuries and Melo has never missed time because of knees or ankles. When he did have to shut it down because of the shoulder he did rehab and I believe played through some pain to win ECF player of the month no?

Injuries is why you dont trade picks. If your big guns get hurt and disaster strikes the silver lining is you get more talent in the draft. Pretty straightforward.

Injury is just one of the many concerns I listed. If you don't account for a players age and injury potential and general wear and tear based on pay history before handing out 5/129 type deals then you obviously work for the New York Knicks.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

low impact player. Bulls might have gotten better with time gone. They certainly didnt miss him. Zero impact in Cle

Sounds a lot like Denver's first two years after Melo

Denver acquired like 4 players in return for Melo. Knicks gave up 4 players who fit MDA's system for 2 star players who didn't. Bulls traded Deng for Bynum and cut him basically getting nothing immediate in return and didn't miss a beat. Cavs swapped mediocre wife stealing Bynum with Deng and hardly got any better.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

low impact player. Bulls might have gotten better with time gone. They certainly didnt miss him. Zero impact in Cle

Sounds a lot like Denver's first two years after Melo

Denver acquired like 4 players in return for Melo. Knicks gave up 4 players who fit MDA's system for 2 star players who didn't. Bulls traded Deng for Bynum and cut him basically getting nothing immediate in return and didn't miss a beat. Cavs swapped mediocre wife stealing Bynum with Deng and hardly got any better.

You're saying guys like Gallo and Mozgov were upgrades over Melo?!

Certainly an IR upgrade.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

low impact player. Bulls might have gotten better with time gone. They certainly didnt miss him. Zero impact in Cle

Sounds a lot like Denver's first two years after Melo

Denver acquired like 4 players in return for Melo. Knicks gave up 4 players who fit MDA's system for 2 star players who didn't. Bulls traded Deng for Bynum and cut him basically getting nothing immediate in return and didn't miss a beat. Cavs swapped mediocre wife stealing Bynum with Deng and hardly got any better.

You're saying guys like Gallo and Mozgov were upgrades over Melo?!

No, Deng was acquired by the Cavs who basically gave up 3 draft picks for him. So there should have been more immediate success. Bulls dumped Deny and got only future assets in return. So they shouldn't have had the success they had while losing a core piece.

Knicks traded away 4 rotational players who fit a system and got back two star players who didn't fit the specific system so lack of immediate success is understandable. Denver acquired 4 players who fit there system to form a deep 10 man rotation of solid players who fit a system. Immediate success is understandable.

If Woodson was the coach instead of MDA with Billups and Melo we would have probably saw more immediate success even if Woodson wasn't a long term answer.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Is melo worth six Luol Dengs?

Is luol Deng worth 1 luol Deng?

low impact player. Bulls might have gotten better with time gone. They certainly didnt miss him. Zero impact in Cle

Sounds a lot like Denver's first two years after Melo

Denver acquired like 4 players in return for Melo. Knicks gave up 4 players who fit MDA's system for 2 star players who didn't. Bulls traded Deng for Bynum and cut him basically getting nothing immediate in return and didn't miss a beat. Cavs swapped mediocre wife stealing Bynum with Deng and hardly got any better.

You're saying guys like Gallo and Mozgov were upgrades over Melo?!

No, Deng was acquired by the Cavs who basically gave up 3 draft picks for him. So there should have been more immediate success. Bulls dumped Deny and got only future assets in return. So they shouldn't have had the success they had while losing a core piece.

Knicks traded away 4 rotational players who fit a system and got back two star players who didn't fit the specific system so lack of immediate success is understandable. Denver acquired 4 players who fit there system to form a deep 10 man rotation of solid players who fit a system. Immediate success is understandable.

If Woodson was the coach instead of MDA with Billups and Melo we would have probably saw more immediate success even if Woodson wasn't a long term answer.