Calderon is viewed as a pure pg who creates easy shots for teammates, gets everyone involved, high efficient shooter, unselfish team player. Exactly the type of player a first year head coach like Fisher needs.

Calderon is also best friends with Marc Gasol who may be a target for us with our cap space next offseason.

Taking on Calderon's contract also allowed us to net prospects such as Larkin, Early, Thanasis which in whole is a lot more value then just signing Collison.

BigRedDog wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VDesai wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VDesai wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VDesai wrote:Because there's not one team in the NBA that is giving up their cap space to take on Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton. This is just not a thing.

The Mavericks literally did the same exact thing when they traded Erick Dampier's non-guaranteed contract to the Bobcats for Tyson Chandler. You could make the argument that Chandler's value is low because of recently poor play BUT it was also low when he got traded their the first time, which is why the Bobcats only got back a non-guaranteed deal. The only thing that might have given my proposed deal pause was the total salary ($18 million) the Mavs would have to digest but if we took back Samuel Dalembert's $4 million deal, is it that unrealistic to see them assuming a net total of $14 million in cap space when they have some $30 million to work with?

In a word, yes.

Because...

Because cap space is at a premium and no one's just going to take on Tyson and Felton's salaries- especially Felton who is rarely in shape. The teams with cap space usually suck and are rebuilding, so they certainly aren't a home for Tyson or Felton, and the teams that are good that have space- like Dallas for example, would much rather throw some salaries back and preserve the space to re-sign their own guys and potentially add people. As you can see Dallas re-signed Dirk and they are still pursing Melo, Lebron etc. They likely will end up use that money so they can bring in 2-3 solid rotation players like Devin Harris, Luol Deng etc.

It seems that you are of the opinion that we got the better end of the deal. If that is the case, wouldn't the Mavericks have also been better off keeping the stellar package we got AND added Chandler? Had they simply done that, they would've already had the "2-3 solid rotation players" you described, plus Chandler plus $15 million to add additional free agents. That seems like a great deal for taking on Felton's contract. But you disagree...

??? How are they adding Chandler without the trade? He isn't a free agent, he still has a yr on his contract

They have about $25 million in cap space.

That still isn't answering the question. Chandler is NOT a free agent. He has a yr left on his contract. How can Dallas acquire him without a trade???

I believe if a team has cap space you can trade a player to them for nothing but a trade exemption.

The real question is not how could Dallas get Chandler for nothing but WHY would the Knicks trade him for just a trade exception. Hence "the trade". The Knicks weren't going to give Chandler away, they knew he had value in a trade.

Uh, you were not making that point. You pivoted away from your first line of supposition "can't get something for nothing" to "why would the Knicks do that". The question is, why would the Knicks care if Tyson Chandler's play had been "declining" AND also managed to get rid of Felton in the process? Plus, they would've been able to use their full MLE as opposed to the mini MLE, which would've put them in the running to get Collision, as I suggested earlier. Collision at 26 years old and $6 million less is better value to me and we would've saved some $18 million in the process to use on another player in a trade. That would've been a better situation IMO.

newyorknewyork wrote:NardDog its not just about the stats. Phil clearly wanted to bring in a player with a strong IQ and efficiency. In his evaluation of the team he probably viewed this as critical and a top priority.

Calderon is viewed as a pure pg who creates easy shots for teammates, gets everyone involved, high efficient shooter, unselfish team player. Exactly the type of player a first year head coach like Fisher needs.

Calderon is also best friends with Marc Gasol who may be a target for us with our cap space next offseason.

Taking on Calderon's contract also allowed us to net prospects such as Larkin, Early, Thanasis which in whole is a lot more value then just signing Collison.

And Darren Collision is none of those things? The stats were to illustrate that Collision is certainly comparable to Calderon...but a hell of a lot cheaper and younger. I don't think you can say definitively that one is better than the other although Collision's defense makes him more well rounded.

But again, I'm not criticizing Calderón the PG. I'm criticizing Calderon the contract, which he has seemingly been given a pass on. I'm also criticizing the value we got back in the deal considering who we gave up. People try to pretend that Tyson Chandler had no value and that Felton had negative value (which he did) but if that were the case....why did Dallas do the trade? To stoke Phil's ego? To help the Knicks? The reality is that big men who can defend the rim are at a premium in this league regardless of their glaring shortcomings (see DeAndre Jordan) and I think we sold one of them on the cheap.

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:NardDog its not just about the stats. Phil clearly wanted to bring in a player with a strong IQ and efficiency. In his evaluation of the team he probably viewed this as critical and a top priority.

Calderon is viewed as a pure pg who creates easy shots for teammates, gets everyone involved, high efficient shooter, unselfish team player. Exactly the type of player a first year head coach like Fisher needs.

Calderon is also best friends with Marc Gasol who may be a target for us with our cap space next offseason.

Taking on Calderon's contract also allowed us to net prospects such as Larkin, Early, Thanasis which in whole is a lot more value then just signing Collison.

Again, I'm not criticizing Calderón the PG. I'm criticizing Calderon the contract, which he has seemingly been given a pass on. I'm also criticizing the value we got back in the deal considering who we gave up. People try to pretend that Tyson Chandler had no value and that Felton had negative value (which he did) but if that were the case....why did Dallas do the trade? To stoke Phil's ego? To help the Knicks? The reality is that big men who can defend the rim are at a premium in this league regardless of their glaring shortcomings (see DeAndre Jordan) and I think we sold one of them on the cheap.

Dallas did the trade because they think Chandler pushes them over the top. They are hoping that Chandler is the guy that left. Phil took the high road when talking about moving he Tyson. He said the Knicks couldn't afford to lose a player like Chandler for nothing. He didn't call him hurt, busted or a malcontent all of which he was. He also is getting older and playing less each year. This is the best trade the Knicks have made in a long time in my opinion. I think Calderon is a really good fit.

This is what puzzles me: how can you suggest that Chandler's play as a 7"1' center is declining at 31 years old...then conveniently ignore the fact that Calderon is a 6"3' PG at 33 years old, whose statline and advanced statline indicate he is on the decline as well? Aside from his raw 3FG%, he posted career lows in most statistical categories, including his AST%, WS/48, TRB%, STL%, PER, raw FT%, raw FGA, raw FG%, and production per minute of action (per36). The only way this could be reconciled is if you think that Jose Calderon was a better player than Tyson Chandler to start, making their respective declines negligible. So do you think that Jose Calderon is the better player?

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:NardDog its not just about the stats. Phil clearly wanted to bring in a player with a strong IQ and efficiency. In his evaluation of the team he probably viewed this as critical and a top priority.

Calderon is viewed as a pure pg who creates easy shots for teammates, gets everyone involved, high efficient shooter, unselfish team player. Exactly the type of player a first year head coach like Fisher needs.

Calderon is also best friends with Marc Gasol who may be a target for us with our cap space next offseason.

Taking on Calderon's contract also allowed us to net prospects such as Larkin, Early, Thanasis which in whole is a lot more value then just signing Collison.

Again, I'm not criticizing Calderón the PG. I'm criticizing Calderon the contract, which he has seemingly been given a pass on. I'm also criticizing the value we got back in the deal considering who we gave up. People try to pretend that Tyson Chandler had no value and that Felton had negative value (which he did) but if that were the case....why did Dallas do the trade? To stoke Phil's ego? To help the Knicks? The reality is that big men who can defend the rim are at a premium in this league regardless of their glaring shortcomings (see DeAndre Jordan) and I think we sold one of them on the cheap.

Dallas did the trade because they think Chandler pushes them over the top. They are hoping that Chandler is the guy that left. Phil took the high road when talking about moving he Tyson. He said the Knicks couldn't afford to lose a player like Chandler for nothing. He didn't call him hurt, busted or a malcontent all of which he was. He also is getting older and playing less each year. This is the best trade the Knicks have made in a long time in my opinion. I think Calderon is a really good fit.

This is what puzzles me: how can you suggest that Chandler's play as a 7"1' center is declining at 31 years old...then conveniently ignore the fact that Calderon is a 6"3' PG at 33 years old, whose statline and advanced statline indicate he is on the decline as well? Aside from his raw 3FG%, he posted career lows in most statistical categories, including his AST%, WS/48, TRB%, STL%, raw FT%, raw FGA, raw FG%, and production per minute of action (per36). The only way this could be reconciled is if you think that Jose Calderon was a better player than Tyson Chandler to start, making their respective declines negligible. So do you think that Jose Calderon is the better player?

"I watched the tape myself and there's open looks," Chandler said Sunday. "We have to be willing passers. You have to sacrifice yourself sometimes for the betterment of the team, for the betterment of your teammates. So when you drive in the paint, you draw, you kick it. We need to do a better job of allowing the game to dictate who takes the shots and not the individuals.

"I'm not saying that anybody is doing it maliciously. I think it's moreso a situation, you want to take over the game or you want to make a big shot, where you have to just stick to the game plan. Good teams win basketball games. Unless you're a great, great, great individual, and we've only had a few of those come through."

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:NardDog its not just about the stats. Phil clearly wanted to bring in a player with a strong IQ and efficiency. In his evaluation of the team he probably viewed this as critical and a top priority.

Calderon is viewed as a pure pg who creates easy shots for teammates, gets everyone involved, high efficient shooter, unselfish team player. Exactly the type of player a first year head coach like Fisher needs.

Calderon is also best friends with Marc Gasol who may be a target for us with our cap space next offseason.

Taking on Calderon's contract also allowed us to net prospects such as Larkin, Early, Thanasis which in whole is a lot more value then just signing Collison.

Again, I'm not criticizing Calderón the PG. I'm criticizing Calderon the contract, which he has seemingly been given a pass on. I'm also criticizing the value we got back in the deal considering who we gave up. People try to pretend that Tyson Chandler had no value and that Felton had negative value (which he did) but if that were the case....why did Dallas do the trade? To stoke Phil's ego? To help the Knicks? The reality is that big men who can defend the rim are at a premium in this league regardless of their glaring shortcomings (see DeAndre Jordan) and I think we sold one of them on the cheap.

Dallas did the trade because they think Chandler pushes them over the top. They are hoping that Chandler is the guy that left. Phil took the high road when talking about moving he Tyson. He said the Knicks couldn't afford to lose a player like Chandler for nothing. He didn't call him hurt, busted or a malcontent all of which he was. He also is getting older and playing less each year. This is the best trade the Knicks have made in a long time in my opinion. I think Calderon is a really good fit.

This is what puzzles me: how can you suggest that Chandler's play as a 7"1' center is declining at 31 years old...then conveniently ignore the fact that Calderon is a 6"3' PG at 33 years old, whose statline and advanced statline indicate he is on the decline as well? Aside from his raw 3FG%, he posted career lows in most statistical categories, including his AST%, WS/48, TRB%, STL%, raw FT%, raw FGA, raw FG%, and production per minute of action (per36). The only way this could be reconciled is if you think that Jose Calderon was a better player than Tyson Chandler to start, making their respective declines negligible. So do you think that Jose Calderon is the better player?

Tyson needed to go. He has been on the decline and his positives off the court disappeared the past two years. He also didn't seem to be motivated when he was on the court. The Knicks got a lot more than Calderon in the deal and they moved Felton and his contract. I think Dalembert/Calderon/Larkin/Early/Thannis, and trade exception is a huge haul for the legend of Tyson and Felton. Tyson probably has a decent year as it is a contract year, he is on a team that doesn't need him to be a leader and he will get praised for his 'contributions'.

So because Tyson "needed to go", you were willing to sell below his market value? And that's something to be celebrated? Omer Asik "needed to go" and Darryl Morey was able to trade him for a first rounder from a lottery team...one that would have had the cap space to sign him outright next season. Loul Deng also "needed to go" and the Bulls managed to plunder the Cavs of multiple future first round pick swaps and a $12 million trade exception. All we got was a 5"11' PG that projects to be a backup for his career and second round picks, that could've been throw-in's in the salary dump I've proposed. Time will tell, I suppose because the truth will have its day.

And if Tyson was so bad that "his positives disappeared two years ago", why is it that the Mavs traded "assets" to get him? Are they in the business of making bad business deals? Or could it be that Tyson Chandler actually offers things to be desired on the basketball court and that his decline has been a bit overstated?

Maybe it works out for both teams. Even if Tyson blows up in Dallas and has a huge year I think he had to go.

nyvector16 wrote:It really is quite simple...

Chandler asked to be traded and Felton just pleaded guilty to a felony..
We were lucky to get what we got.

Noone of any consequence was gonna sign for the mini MLE at the pg position..

Why have a whole thread bitching about Calderon's Contract when it is slightly higher than Felton's and one year longer.

No other team valued Chandler or a Felton enough to engage the Knicks in serious discussions. .. unless of course we threw a 1st round pick into the mix and people would scream bloody murder.

this was a great trade to acquire some assets and change culture of the team...
you may not like it, but the rest of us are thrilled with what Phil is doing so far...

+1 Thank you Just ridiculous

nyvector16 wrote:Any Discussion On A Fan Forum Is conjecture... That Includes anything you have enlightened us with in This thread... so don't get sanctimonious when someone poses an opinion opposite of yours...

Differences in salary between Felton and Calderon:
2.7M year1
2.9M year2

Extra year 7.7 (expiring contract) year 3

This for 2 second rounders and a 1st in the teens from last year's draft... plenty of fans are happy about that

Sorry you can't see the value in that.
I hope this adds "perspective" for you.

What I don't know or I'm unsure of, I explicitly state. What I believe, I try to support with data e.g. Calderon being on the decline. There's a difference between that and acting like I was intimately involved with the Knick front office. So save your smugness for someone else. I didn't ask you to comment on this thread, so if my position offends you that much, you don't really need to respond anymore.

As for ~$2.7 million being insignificant, Ray Allen earned just $400,000 more than that to play a critical role in winning game 6 of the 2013 Finals. Guys like Mo Williams ($2.7 million), Darren Collision ($1.9 million), Patty Mills ($1.1 million), Shaun Livingston ($1.9 million) all played key roles for their playoff bound teams as well for less than that amount. The theme here is that every penny counts, which is something winning organizations understand.

I think it's a bit hypocritical to rile about how poorly we've spent our money in the past but then ignore this same issue with a guy like Calderon. You can choose to feel, however, you'd like to about that but I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion yet. I hope that he and the other guys involved in the package have a great season but I just don't see it happening.

nyvector16 wrote:Any Discussion On A Fan Forum Is conjecture... That Includes anything you have enlightened us with in This thread... so don't get sanctimonious when someone poses an opinion opposite of yours...

Differences in salary between Felton and Calderon:
2.7M year1
2.9M year2

Extra year 7.7 (expiring contract) year 3

This for 2 second rounders and a 1st in the teens from last year's draft... plenty of fans are happy about that

Sorry you can't see the value in that.
I hope this adds "perspective" for you.

+1,000,000