H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

So there is no such thing like building through the draft is the right way. What it comes down to is having a GM that knows what he is doing and letting him decide the best way. Right now, the best player in NY is a straight up star. Pairing him up with another star is the best way to go.

Nalod wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

San Antonio is the only team that has won without trading for stars. If you can draft a Tim Duncan every year then I am all for trying to build through the draft. But that is not going to happen. Even Miami needed to trade for Shaq and then get Lebron and Bosh to win a championship. Yes they drafted Wade but he wasn't the best player in that draft. Lebron was the best player in that draft and he left the team that drafted him. He went to Miami. There is no championship in Miami without Shaq and Lebron. So Miami has a championship today because they have Pat Riley who could trade for stars and not stick to something unreasonable like "build through the draft".

So there is no such thing like building through the draft is the right way. What it comes down to is having a GM that knows what he is doing and letting him decide the best way. Right now, the best player in NY is a straight up star. Pairing him up with another star is the best way to go.

I don't think anybody disputes this. This is where we are today and have a charismatic leader, like Miami that might be able to construct a winning scenario. The point is Wade was drafted and MElo was not. To add TWO "Stars" is twice as problematic as adding one. We did this but one was defective and untradable (Amare). With limited resources and a "Win now" mandate the team was forced to gamble on talent. Our "Old 54" team broke down. Talented JR is mentally defective and we talking about a kid exiled to china so he can pay his bills during the lockout. Tyson was a free agent signing and in a way was a good one. Lets be real, free agents like Tyson shake loose for a reason and his health was questionable most of his career. As we Know, Melo came at a big cost.

Im not saying a championship team can be exclusively drafted, but you need to Draft one cornerstone star player. If you can get two and your star to take a pay cut to win as they did in MIami, so much the better!

FOr the knicks, we don't have the Goods to trade for Love and Amare is not retiring. If we can keep MElo one more year we can add to him in 2015.

Initially I had thought you were saying you want to draft the stars players and then trade for veterans to fill in the gaps. That's what Chicago, Houston, OKC, Boston and pretty much everyone other than San Antonio tried to do for the last few decades. But that does happen unless you are very lucky like San Antonio and draft Duncan. Stars win in the NBA and I don't care how we get them here. If we can do something like Miami and get them to take a paycut or if we do something like what Boston did with KG and LA did with Pau. It does not matter to me.

I don't understand why we should trade Melo for draft picks and then try to draft someone better than Melo? It is so hard to do that! Melo is really amazing. Do you realize how hard it is to get a player as good as Melo, his skills, shelf life, and wanting to stay in NY?

Silverfuel wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

San Antonio is the only team that has won without trading for stars. If you can draft a Tim Duncan every year then I am all for trying to build through the draft. But that is not going to happen. Even Miami needed to trade for Shaq and then get Lebron and Bosh to win a championship. Yes they drafted Wade but he wasn't the best player in that draft. Lebron was the best player in that draft and he left the team that drafted him. He went to Miami. There is no championship in Miami without Shaq and Lebron. So Miami has a championship today because they have Pat Riley who could trade for stars and not stick to something unreasonable like "build through the draft".

So there is no such thing like building through the draft is the right way. What it comes down to is having a GM that knows what he is doing and letting him decide the best way. Right now, the best player in NY is a straight up star. Pairing him up with another star is the best way to go.

Which is what I said: Draft smartly and sign quality free agents and/or a bonafide star if they become available. We arent disagreeing.

As for Melo, Ill say this, he's a gifted scorer but isn't the type of player who can do it alone (and not many beyond Lebron and Durant are). I guess you could say Im not a MeloLover but not a hater either, he is what he is. I dont fault the Knicks for trying to take a shot at making a super team with Chandler/Amare/Melo but it unfortunately it has not worked for a myriad of reasons.

However now Melo is on the wrong side of 30 and stands to earn almost $30 million a year. Signing aging stars to the supermax is almost NEVER a smart idea. Those contracts almost always become an albatross. Even short term, assuming Carmelo is fully healthy for the first couple years of the contract there just isn't enough money left over to build a real team him if he doesnt take a pay cut. IF Melo takes less, great, re-sign him and use our pick in 2015 to grab a nice young player to pair with whatever FA's we can sign with our max cap space that same summer.

I have a feeling this is all moot as I personally believe Melo is going to walk. Besides him forcing his way here and now ditching the team and all that if he walks, fine, the situation isnt even as bad as most make it out to be. We wont have to wait long for a nice team to be put together if its done the right way. We'll stink next season even worse since we have zero flexibility and then we have a real shot at a top 3 pick and enough cap space to go after 2 max FA's in 2015 or save some to go after Durant in 2016 while continuing to build.

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

Exactly... why not try something that has worked for a majority of the teams as well... if what you are doing is not working.. time to change up..

H1AND1 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

San Antonio is the only team that has won without trading for stars. If you can draft a Tim Duncan every year then I am all for trying to build through the draft. But that is not going to happen. Even Miami needed to trade for Shaq and then get Lebron and Bosh to win a championship. Yes they drafted Wade but he wasn't the best player in that draft. Lebron was the best player in that draft and he left the team that drafted him. He went to Miami. There is no championship in Miami without Shaq and Lebron. So Miami has a championship today because they have Pat Riley who could trade for stars and not stick to something unreasonable like "build through the draft".

So there is no such thing like building through the draft is the right way. What it comes down to is having a GM that knows what he is doing and letting him decide the best way. Right now, the best player in NY is a straight up star. Pairing him up with another star is the best way to go.

Which is what I said: Draft smartly and sign quality free agents and/or a bonafide star if they become available. We arent disagreeing.

As for Melo, Ill say this, he's a gifted scorer but isn't the type of player who can do it alone (and not many beyond Lebron and Durant are). I guess you could say Im not a MeloLover but not a hater either, he is what he is. I dont fault the Knicks for trying to take a shot at making a super team with Chandler/Amare/Melo but it unfortunately it has not worked for a myriad of reasons.

However now Melo is on the wrong side of 30 and stands to earn almost $30 million a year. Signing aging stars to the supermax is almost NEVER a smart idea. Those contracts almost always become an albatross. Even short term, assuming Carmelo is fully healthy for the first couple years of the contract there just isn't enough money left over to build a real team him if he doesnt take a pay cut. IF Melo takes less, great, re-sign him and use our pick in 2015 to grab a nice young player to pair with whatever FA's we can sign with our max cap space that same summer.

I have a feeling this is all moot as I personally believe Melo is going to walk. Besides him forcing his way here and now ditching the team and all that if he walks, fine, the situation isnt even as bad as most make it out to be. We wont have to wait long for a nice team to be put together if its done the right way. We'll stink next season even worse since we have zero flexibility and then we have a real shot at a top 3 pick and enough cap space to go after 2 max FA's in 2015 or save some to go after Durant in 2016 while continuing to build.

tkf wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

Exactly... why not try something that has worked for a majority of the teams as well... if what you are doing is not working.. time to change up..

I am confused with what you said. It has only worked for one team, the Spurs, what majority are you referring to? Also, i don't look at it so much as what has worked and what hasn't worked, rather than who is trying to impliment it. Clearly Isaiah, Layden, and Walsh couldn't get the job done. Walsh's plan was to land the top free agents in 2010, which he was not able to do. Maybe Phil feels that he will get this done, much like Pat did. Just an example of another way to look at it. The plan does not have to be drastically different, just better executed. Were the plans always that poor, or just poorly executed? We have never had a GM with a championship resume try to get the job done.

H1AND1 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:It's amazing how some of you believe drafting is the way to a champioship, but won't pay attention to what kind of teams are in the finals..

You think OKC has bad luck and thats why they can't get over the hump, please, KD and westbrook are far from winning a championship despite playing on a talented team, same thing with The bulls and Rose..

The teams in the finals? MIA and SA? I seem to remember SA drafting Tim Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker. They didn't draft Kawhi Leonard, technically, but they traded for him on draft night.

Miami drafted Dwayne Wade, did they not? Hate him or love him Wade is certainly one of the best SG's of the past 20 years whose now won 3 'chips, one of them way before Lebron arrived as the team's best player and finals MVP. MIA also drafted a good portion of their role players.

So yeah, you said to look at the teams in the finals and I see two teams who drafted stars then smartly built around them with savvy free agent acquisitions. Indubitably, the best strategy is a combination of both methods of team building.

It's hard for some to accept reality. It is what it is

Which is funny considering the strategy of dealing away all picks and young assets as the Knicks have done for the past 15 years or so has certainly NOT worked. Why not try something different? Just because some teams continually blow high picks and are never good doesn't invalidate the simple fact that smart management covets draft picks and maximizing the value of young players on cheap contracts while also preserving cap space to land pricier FA's should they become available.

San Antonio is the only team that has won without trading for stars. If you can draft a Tim Duncan every year then I am all for trying to build through the draft. But that is not going to happen. Even Miami needed to trade for Shaq and then get Lebron and Bosh to win a championship. Yes they drafted Wade but he wasn't the best player in that draft. Lebron was the best player in that draft and he left the team that drafted him. He went to Miami. There is no championship in Miami without Shaq and Lebron. So Miami has a championship today because they have Pat Riley who could trade for stars and not stick to something unreasonable like "build through the draft".

So there is no such thing like building through the draft is the right way. What it comes down to is having a GM that knows what he is doing and letting him decide the best way. Right now, the best player in NY is a straight up star. Pairing him up with another star is the best way to go.

Which is what I said: Draft smartly and sign quality free agents and/or a bonafide star if they become available. We arent disagreeing.

As for Melo, Ill say this, he's a gifted scorer but isn't the type of player who can do it alone (and not many beyond Lebron and Durant are). I guess you could say Im not a MeloLover but not a hater either, he is what he is. I dont fault the Knicks for trying to take a shot at making a super team with Chandler/Amare/Melo but it unfortunately it has not worked for a myriad of reasons.

However now Melo is on the wrong side of 30 and stands to earn almost $30 million a year. Signing aging stars to the supermax is almost NEVER a smart idea. Those contracts almost always become an albatross. Even short term, assuming Carmelo is fully healthy for the first couple years of the contract there just isn't enough money left over to build a real team him if he doesnt take a pay cut. IF Melo takes less, great, re-sign him and use our pick in 2015 to grab a nice young player to pair with whatever FA's we can sign with our max cap space that same summer.

I have a feeling this is all moot as I personally believe Melo is going to walk. Besides him forcing his way here and now ditching the team and all that if he walks, fine, the situation isnt even as bad as most make it out to be. We wont have to wait long for a nice team to be put together if its done the right way. We'll stink next season even worse since we have zero flexibility and then we have a real shot at a top 3 pick and enough cap space to go after 2 max FA's in 2015 or save some to go after Durant in 2016 while continuing to build.

We don't agree on several key points and I also feel like you contradict yourself in your post. You say we shouldn't sign Melo to a supermax but in the next paragraph you say you feel like he is going to walk. Why would he walk if another team cannot give him the supermax. And if he is going to leave for less money, why do you think he will not stay in NY for less money?

I should've been clearer. I believe the only reason Carmelo would stay in NY would be to get that extra $30 million, whatever. He may take less money, but to go to a more ready made contender.

Melo walking is simply my gut feeling. I think he wants out of NY. Just my opinion. That is just my opinion regardless of the discussion in the threa.

jrod and fishmike should help pack his bags and chauffeur him to the airport. he is going to be offered much less money by jackson. much much less.