fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

YES! Nuggs lost and Melo shot for crap. He played poorly. Whats the issue with that?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

this is why I like using the good old FG% sometimes.. advanced stats have their place and should be used in the proper context ,harden took over 30 shots last night and didn't hit a lot of them.. If carmelo shot that bad, I would be all over him and justifiably so.... listen the rockets won, lin made some great hustle plays and that kid from nowhere hit some huge shots....

Although I think Harden is a better player than carmelo, last night was not a great effort at all..... it was a brickfest...

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

well you do have somewhat of a point about advanced stats, but trust me, there are valid uses for them..

As far as carmelo goes, let me ask you, who did lebron have next to him in cleveland? yet he still played well, and shot well..

carmelo missing shots, taking bad shots is on carmelo.. the pacers went single coverage on carmelo a lot, and they used paul george, miami did the same thing using battier.....

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

YES! Nuggs lost and Melo shot for crap. He played poorly. Whats the issue with that?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

this is why I like using the good old FG% sometimes.. advanced stats have their place and should be used in the proper context ,harden took over 30 shots last night and didn't hit a lot of them.. If carmelo shot that bad, I would be all over him and justifiably so.... listen the rockets won, lin made some great hustle plays and that kid from nowhere hit some huge shots....

Although I think Harden is a better player than carmelo, last night was not a great effort at all..... it was a brickfest...

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

YES! Nuggs lost and Melo shot for crap. He played poorly. Whats the issue with that?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

this is why I like using the good old FG% sometimes.. advanced stats have their place and should be used in the proper context ,harden took over 30 shots last night and didn't hit a lot of them.. If carmelo shot that bad, I would be all over him and justifiably so.... listen the rockets won, lin made some great hustle plays and that kid from nowhere hit some huge shots....

Although I think Harden is a better player than carmelo, last night was not a great effort at all..... it was a brickfest...

I'm sure his TS% was pretty bad last night too. Your opening sentence doesn't really apply.

doesn't apply to what bonn? two different statements.. I made that to say I like using old school FG% there are real uses for advanced stats... I wasn't applying that to harden's game last night at all....

I noted harden shot bad and that should reflect no matter what stat you use....

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

The idea that the earth was flat was once common sense. How do you know if "common sense" is valid until you test it? The fact that a belief is common does not in any way mean it's valid.

Because I don't need to test the belief that if a good player plays beside other good players, they are more likely to have a more easy time of things and therefore by more efficient, than if they are the only good player on a team full of scrubs- sorry if you think this is a radical concept! What next? You have to provide quantified proof that a player at 40 isn't as good as they were when they were 25?! This is frickin basketball not quantum mechanics!

You're saying your intuition can tell you whether an idea is right or not. You're not really arguing against advanced stats. You're actually arguing against the scientific method.
Nearly all the teams are hiring metrics experts now. You gotta move into the 21st century!

Argh! I feel like I'm at work! I have this argument every day! I'm not even allowed to send out my own letters to clients once they've dropped out- I have to use uniform, scientific letters!

This metrics thing is a flash in the pan- it can be a useful tool, but you have to use it in conjunction with instinct, common sense and context, otherwise you're just deskilling yourself, and spending time unnecessarily calculating the obvious!

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

The idea that the earth was flat was once common sense. How do you know if "common sense" is valid until you test it? The fact that a belief is common does not in any way mean it's valid.

Because I don't need to test the belief that if a good player plays beside other good players, they are more likely to have a more easy time of things and therefore by more efficient, than if they are the only good player on a team full of scrubs- sorry if you think this is a radical concept! What next? You have to provide quantified proof that a player at 40 isn't as good as they were when they were 25?! This is frickin basketball not quantum mechanics!

You're saying your intuition can tell you whether an idea is right or not. You're not really arguing against advanced stats. You're actually arguing against the scientific method.
Nearly all the teams are hiring metrics experts now. You gotta move into the 21st century!

Argh! I feel like I'm at work! I have this argument every day! I'm not even allowed to send out my own letters to clients once they've dropped out- I have to use uniform, scientific letters!

This metrics thing is a flash in the pan- it can be a useful tool, but you have to use it in conjunction with instinct, common sense and context, otherwise you're just deskilling yourself, and spending time unnecessarily calculating the obvious!

Have you ever in your life thought something was obvious and found out it was wrong?

Nope, I have great judgement!

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

The idea that the earth was flat was once common sense. How do you know if "common sense" is valid until you test it? The fact that a belief is common does not in any way mean it's valid.

Because I don't need to test the belief that if a good player plays beside other good players, they are more likely to have a more easy time of things and therefore by more efficient, than if they are the only good player on a team full of scrubs- sorry if you think this is a radical concept! What next? You have to provide quantified proof that a player at 40 isn't as good as they were when they were 25?! This is frickin basketball not quantum mechanics!

You're saying your intuition can tell you whether an idea is right or not. You're not really arguing against advanced stats. You're actually arguing against the scientific method.
Nearly all the teams are hiring metrics experts now. You gotta move into the 21st century!

Argh! I feel like I'm at work! I have this argument every day! I'm not even allowed to send out my own letters to clients once they've dropped out- I have to use uniform, scientific letters!

This metrics thing is a flash in the pan- it can be a useful tool, but you have to use it in conjunction with instinct, common sense and context, otherwise you're just deskilling yourself, and spending time unnecessarily calculating the obvious!

Have you ever in your life thought something was obvious and found out it was wrong?

Nope, I have great judgement!

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

YES! Nuggs lost and Melo shot for crap. He played poorly. Whats the issue with that?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

this is why I like using the good old FG% sometimes.. advanced stats have their place and should be used in the proper context ,harden took over 30 shots last night and didn't hit a lot of them.. If carmelo shot that bad, I would be all over him and justifiably so.... listen the rockets won, lin made some great hustle plays and that kid from nowhere hit some huge shots....

Although I think Harden is a better player than carmelo, last night was not a great effort at all..... it was a brickfest...

I'm sure his TS% was pretty bad last night too. Your opening sentence doesn't really apply.

Right. FG% should never be used as a barometer when we have so many better statistics available to us.

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

The idea that the earth was flat was once common sense. How do you know if "common sense" is valid until you test it? The fact that a belief is common does not in any way mean it's valid.

Because I don't need to test the belief that if a good player plays beside other good players, they are more likely to have a more easy time of things and therefore by more efficient, than if they are the only good player on a team full of scrubs- sorry if you think this is a radical concept! What next? You have to provide quantified proof that a player at 40 isn't as good as they were when they were 25?! This is frickin basketball not quantum mechanics!

You're saying your intuition can tell you whether an idea is right or not. You're not really arguing against advanced stats. You're actually arguing against the scientific method.
Nearly all the teams are hiring metrics experts now. You gotta move into the 21st century!

Argh! I feel like I'm at work! I have this argument every day! I'm not even allowed to send out my own letters to clients once they've dropped out- I have to use uniform, scientific letters!

This metrics thing is a flash in the pan- it can be a useful tool, but you have to use it in conjunction with instinct, common sense and context, otherwise you're just deskilling yourself, and spending time unnecessarily calculating the obvious!

well it isn't immediately obvious to at least half the basketball fans why many players don't have what it takes to be winning players. stats are meant to illuminate further what one tries to see empirically on the court. some people have better eyes than others, right? and aren't they allowed to use statistics to further highlight the pros and cons of a player? you seem to think that statistics with regard to basketball are meant to support an argument exclusively which of course is an inaccurate conclusion.

But I don't think you can quantify the 'it' factor- guys like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher- they made insane clutch shots that are beyond reasoning!

Insane!

How many "it" factor guys are there? Yes, advanced metrics are not great at defining the value for these guys but while they are not perfect, they are much better than our blind eyes.

there will always be statistical anomalies and both fisher and horry are that. neither will enter the hall of fame for their anomalous contributions, i reckon.

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.

The idea that the earth was flat was once common sense. How do you know if "common sense" is valid until you test it? The fact that a belief is common does not in any way mean it's valid.

Because I don't need to test the belief that if a good player plays beside other good players, they are more likely to have a more easy time of things and therefore by more efficient, than if they are the only good player on a team full of scrubs- sorry if you think this is a radical concept! What next? You have to provide quantified proof that a player at 40 isn't as good as they were when they were 25?! This is frickin basketball not quantum mechanics!

You're saying your intuition can tell you whether an idea is right or not. You're not really arguing against advanced stats. You're actually arguing against the scientific method.
Nearly all the teams are hiring metrics experts now. You gotta move into the 21st century!

Argh! I feel like I'm at work! I have this argument every day! I'm not even allowed to send out my own letters to clients once they've dropped out- I have to use uniform, scientific letters!

This metrics thing is a flash in the pan- it can be a useful tool, but you have to use it in conjunction with instinct, common sense and context, otherwise you're just deskilling yourself, and spending time unnecessarily calculating the obvious!

well it isn't immediately obvious to at least half the basketball fans why many players don't have what it takes to be winning players. stats are meant to illuminate further what one tries to see empirically on the court. some people have better eyes than others, right? and aren't they allowed to use statistics to further highlight the pros and cons of a player? you seem to think that statistics with regard to basketball are meant to support an argument exclusively which of course is an inaccurate conclusion.

But I don't think you can quantify the 'it' factor- guys like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher- they made insane clutch shots that are beyond reasoning!

Insane!

How many "it" factor guys are there? Yes, advanced metrics are not great at defining the value for these guys but while they are not perfect, they are much better than our blind eyes.

`but how do you know an actual player is 'good', just because their advance stats are good? It's like saying these advanced stats tell me these players are good and the proof that they actually are good is the advance stats.