nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:Melo is not the real problem despite his desire to go ISO, which wouldn't be the end of the world if we had a team around him and an offense that involves some off ball motion. This is the change the Knicks need most. In the NBA the difference between teams is not that great. Aside from needing a Top Tier player you also need a roster that makes sense and has the needed balance and scheme to enhance the overall team play. You could take the same roster and put in a better scheme and this team would win a lot more games. Now if you also improve the team with the right player or two then we'd be talking about a contender.

We will get a chance to see this roster with better coaching, scheme and perhaps a glue type player or 2 that can make it all work at a higher level. Better understanding of how to play the game on a higher level is going to be key and that is what Phil is going to be looking to do. Better fundamentals and overall scheme will make a HUGE difference. Just watching this team there were so many times where this team lost simply due to a lack of fundamentals and a sound BB scheme. Poor coaching and on the floor decision making was often the real detriment as opposed to needing more talent. Of course we want to improve the talent but you also have to improve the base level of BB acumen and IQ. We've been playing dumb BB and selfish BB that doesn't maximize the talent we have already.

his arrival here in the first place made the roster make no sense. they gutted the team and could not figure it out. the team has been in chaos and disarray thanks to the melo trade. "surrounding" such a flawed-- and redundant player-- was a non-starter. we should have stood pat in 2010-2011 and gotten an upgrade at point guard. tha was surely walsh's plan, since he had felton on a cheap two-year audition deal. we would have been in much better shape than we are now, waiting for some cooky draft night trades and then 2015 free agency.

It's really hard to put a team together that can win a title without one of the top players in the league and a scheme that maximizes the role players on your team. We already have Melo who I believe is talented enough to help a team win in the post season, but the big IF is having the right coach and leadership, the right balance of players that make sense together. We need a cultural shift to TEAM WORK as opposed to what we've had. IMO getting rid of Melo doesn't really solve any of the teams pressing issues. If only creates a major one. Who exactly do you replace him with that has the talent to take over when a team of role players needs that star player? It's not like they grow those players on trees.

I'd take my chances with Melo and Phil rather than just hoping we can eventually find a lead player and put a team around him. IMO if we had replaced Felton with a more capable player that would do more than getting rid of Melo. Just think about how Kidd was able to help this team despite losing most of his physical skills. He did it with his mind more than anything else. We need a younger Ball mover who can lead the team on the floor. We need the kind of scheme that Phil is espousing that is based on Team Ball.

depends on melo's asking price to the knicks. and here i want to stress that what he can get on the open market should not dictate his asking price. to me that will lead to disaster and i highly doubt jackson follows that route. he is asking for a culture change and that culture change needs to be based on individual sacrifice for the greater good. this is the anti-dolan anti-isiah approach, which is to indulge selfishness, pay top dollar for talent over fit, etc. etc.

frankly, melo's best suited to being a jumpshooting finisher and dogged rebounder. he'd have great success at that. but for that to occur you need at least two other players who are the engines and catalysts. even as a second catalyst melo will hurt rather than help a team-- poor decision-making has hurt his chances at success.

fishmike wrote:wasnt Karl also the coach of that Sonics team that almost won 70 games and got bounced in the first round by the 8th seeded Mutumbo's Nuggets? Thats the coach your talking about right? that Sea team had what? 3 HOFs and other all-stars and your pumping up his playoff record?

But i will break it down more for you fish...

What I see you broke down for me is that a lottery franchise added a perennial all star and hall of fame player and went from the lottery to winning 50ish games every year. Pretty clear thats what happened.

lets check the facts bro
Karls's Sonics: 63wins first round exit. 57 wins first rount exit and the two years after their one good run to the finals they got spanked in the 2nd round. But yea... Detlef, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kemp, Nate McMillon, Gill... that team was deep and loaded but keep telling yourself Karl did a great job. Wow.. in 6 years he took a team with a HOF PG and a bunch of all stars on one good run.

How about you explain to me how Kevin Garnett was a playoff loser (when he actually made it in) for a decade? Did he finally find good coaching or did he actually join a better team? Please tell.. I dont seem to understand how this team thing works. Your facts seem to help. Bro.

I DON'T KNOW what you are trying to argue.. do you? at some point fish every great coach will probably experience a first round loss, as will every great player.. so far lebron has not....to name one.... I think even phil had a first round exit...

what we are talking about fish is what they have done.. karl has been to a few confrence finals and a NBA finals... he has done so without carmelo.. carmelo hasn't done so without karl. his only visit to a confrence final was with karl...

Yes that sonics team was good, and had a REAL franchise player in gary payton.. that is the point... carmelo just isn't that dude!!!!

As far as garnett... all I know is that he has a ring and been to two finals.. when carmelo leaves the knicks and goes to another team and has that type of success than talk to me.. There is nothing to explain about garnett.. he is a champion..

If you are going to bring up other players to help your argument.. let them at least ... help your argument... bringing up champions isn't going to help... Garnett is a franchise changer.. he did so with boston. carmelo came here and failed... can you explain that?

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:wasnt Karl also the coach of that Sonics team that almost won 70 games and got bounced in the first round by the 8th seeded Mutumbo's Nuggets? Thats the coach your talking about right? that Sea team had what? 3 HOFs and other all-stars and your pumping up his playoff record?

But i will break it down more for you fish...

What I see you broke down for me is that a lottery franchise added a perennial all star and hall of fame player and went from the lottery to winning 50ish games every year. Pretty clear thats what happened.

lets check the facts bro
Karls's Sonics: 63wins first round exit. 57 wins first rount exit and the two years after their one good run to the finals they got spanked in the 2nd round. But yea... Detlef, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kemp, Nate McMillon, Gill... that team was deep and loaded but keep telling yourself Karl did a great job. Wow.. in 6 years he took a team with a HOF PG and a bunch of all stars on one good run.

How about you explain to me how Kevin Garnett was a playoff loser (when he actually made it in) for a decade? Did he finally find good coaching or did he actually join a better team? Please tell.. I dont seem to understand how this team thing works. Your facts seem to help. Bro.

well lets review once again:

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there.
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency.
then really no pg at all in 2002-3
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season.
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton
then another season in the point guard wilderness
then a trade to boston.

garnett's wolves teams did not have as much talent as melo's denver teams. do the research and prove that this is not true.

oh I have. Part of the reason Melo's teams ALWAYS made the playoffs while KG's did NOT. But your making more excuses for KG. Bottom line? He failed and was a bigger playoff loser than Melo

garnett has been a better player than melo. do you agree with that assessment?

not by your criterea no. Not at all. Up to the same points in their career no, Melo has been much better. KG didnt do anything but collect meaningless regular season awards along with year after year of flameouts in the playoffs when he made it (a bonerfide TFK playoff loser). Melo's teams had better records and always made the playoffs. Always.

KG failed to elevate the play of his team, failed to get his team out of the first round, and couldnt win a playoff series without Spree and Cassell to carry the scoring load. And his attitude is terrible and its been documented.

fish, stop with the BS... post meloser's playoff record, and then post garnett's?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:wasnt Karl also the coach of that Sonics team that almost won 70 games and got bounced in the first round by the 8th seeded Mutumbo's Nuggets? Thats the coach your talking about right? that Sea team had what? 3 HOFs and other all-stars and your pumping up his playoff record?

But i will break it down more for you fish...

What I see you broke down for me is that a lottery franchise added a perennial all star and hall of fame player and went from the lottery to winning 50ish games every year. Pretty clear thats what happened.

lets check the facts bro
Karls's Sonics: 63wins first round exit. 57 wins first rount exit and the two years after their one good run to the finals they got spanked in the 2nd round. But yea... Detlef, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kemp, Nate McMillon, Gill... that team was deep and loaded but keep telling yourself Karl did a great job. Wow.. in 6 years he took a team with a HOF PG and a bunch of all stars on one good run.

How about you explain to me how Kevin Garnett was a playoff loser (when he actually made it in) for a decade? Did he finally find good coaching or did he actually join a better team? Please tell.. I dont seem to understand how this team thing works. Your facts seem to help. Bro.

well lets review once again:

he had turdbury as a running mate for several of those early seasons-- you can start there.
then he had billups before billups learned to tighten up his game in terms of efficiency.
then really no pg at all in 2002-3
cassell and spree he makes it to the conference finals and then cassell declined next season.
then anthony carter-- scrubby pg but better than felton
then another season in the point guard wilderness
then a trade to boston.

garnett's wolves teams did not have as much talent as melo's denver teams. do the research and prove that this is not true.

oh I have. Part of the reason Melo's teams ALWAYS made the playoffs while KG's did NOT. But your making more excuses for KG. Bottom line? He failed and was a bigger playoff loser than Melo

garnett has been a better player than melo. do you agree with that assessment?

not by your criterea no. Not at all. Up to the same points in their career no, Melo has been much better. KG didnt do anything but collect meaningless regular season awards along with year after year of flameouts in the playoffs when he made it (a bonerfide TFK playoff loser). Melo's teams had better records and always made the playoffs. Always.

KG failed to elevate the play of his team, failed to get his team out of the first round, and couldnt win a playoff series without Spree and Cassell to carry the scoring load. And his attitude is terrible and its been documented.

fish, stop with the BS... post meloser's playoff record, and then post garnett's?

VCoug wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Andrew wrote:I think there are a lot of incentives for a player to require a sign and trade right?

I'm not sure. I think under the new CBA, he can't get any more money than if the team simply out-right signed him. I could be wrong though.

The key is the bulls would have to amnesty Boozer to get cap space AND trade away Taj Gibson, or jimmy butler and more. That gives them incentive to do a sign and trade with us as it means they don't have to pay Boozers salary (they are very tight with money), and they may as well trade those players to us while they are at it.

Pretty much this. For Melo he probably gets paid more money in a sign and trade. He can't get a 5-year max with 7.5% raises and a higher starting salary like he could if he resigned here but the 4-year max with 4.5% raises and a lower starting salary would probably be higher than whatever free agent contract he could sign for (with Chicago, a team like the Lakers I don't think would be in the same position). For Chicago there are a couple of other benefits, like smackeddog said.

Amnestying Boozer takes him of their cap but he still gets paid the $16.8M owed him next year; if they trade him they save that money. And even if they amnesty him they might still need to dump more salary, like Gibson's or Dunleavy's, to get Melo to consider signing there. I think they would agree to any reasonable sign and trade that allows them to keep Gibson and Butler. Another benefit is that it would keep them over the cap, which is a good thing in their case. If at any point during the offseason a team is under the cap they lose their salary exceptions and I would think that any contract Melo agrees to would eat up all of the available cap space. That would be the end of their offseason except for the draft and trades. If they do a sign and trade it keeps them over the cap and they would still be able to use their MLE and BAE to sign other free agents.

After the Bulls get rid of all their key role players, what happens next, not to mention playing with a ball dominate pg.

When you look at every possible option, NY makes the most sense. I could understand if he was coming back to the same coach, and team, but we all know that's not the case.

what is going to keep bouncing around the league hoping to land on a bed of roses..

gunsnewing wrote:A lot of factors:
Melo better supporting cast
Karl better coach than Saunders etc

We saw what KG(all time great, offense, defense and leadership, kills you in multiple ways) did when he finally had spree cassel and Wally. Unfortunately they weren't good enough a supporting cast to compete with Duncan Shaq and Kobe

Take KG's supporting cast up a level(pierce Allen rondo) and he wins a ring. It's not that hard

Do you see Melo winning a ring as the Big Kahuna is the question?

Or as a robin to a batman?

I go with the latter.

Melo @ $25-30mil pretty much guarantees that it continues to be all about Melo

Which again is good enough if the goal is to make the playoffs

This really isn't that hard goddammit!!!

Melo better supporting cast

Melo's supporting cast was better in that the Nuggets teams of Ruben Patterson, Voshon Lenard, Kmart after two surgeries, Camby and Andre Miller actually made it to the playoffs while KG's supporting casts didn't qualify on more than several occasions. In the end, both were ****ty teams that weren't good enough to compete with the elite. Do not see the point in you pointing out that Melo's supporting cast was better when neither had a chance at doing much.

We saw what KG(all time great, offense, defense and leadership, kills you in multiple ways) did when he finally had spree cassel and Wally. Unfortunately they weren't good enough a supporting cast to compete with Duncan Shaq and Kobe

Same can be said when Melo got a chance to play with Billups. The Nuggs advanced to the WCF and lost to the same Laker team that Minny did. Still fail to see your point here.

Take KG's supporting cast up a level(pierce Allen rondo) and he wins a ring. It's not that hard

Up a level?! How about up 10 levels! KG was traded to a team with two hall of famers; Allen and Pierce. Not to mention, he also got a chance to play for the best defensive coach in the biz in Thibbs. So, who is the hall of famer that Melo had a chance to play with since he was traded?

Do you see Melo winning a ring as the Big Kahuna is the question?

Or as a robin to a batman?

Was KG the clear, big Kahuna on the Celts team? An argument can be made that Pierce was the Big Kahuna. Hell, Ray Aleen made most of the big shots in big games for them so he could lay claim to that title. Or, maybe when a team has three hall of famers on the floor at the same time (Hall of Famers that fit, mind you), they can take turns being the big Kahuna. When has Melo ever had the chance to take a back to two other hall of fame teammates?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:wasnt Karl also the coach of that Sonics team that almost won 70 games and got bounced in the first round by the 8th seeded Mutumbo's Nuggets? Thats the coach your talking about right? that Sea team had what? 3 HOFs and other all-stars and your pumping up his playoff record?

But i will break it down more for you fish...

What I see you broke down for me is that a lottery franchise added a perennial all star and hall of fame player and went from the lottery to winning 50ish games every year. Pretty clear thats what happened.

lets check the facts bro
Karls's Sonics: 63wins first round exit. 57 wins first rount exit and the two years after their one good run to the finals they got spanked in the 2nd round. But yea... Detlef, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kemp, Nate McMillon, Gill... that team was deep and loaded but keep telling yourself Karl did a great job. Wow.. in 6 years he took a team with a HOF PG and a bunch of all stars on one good run.

How about you explain to me how Kevin Garnett was a playoff loser (when he actually made it in) for a decade? Did he finally find good coaching or did he actually join a better team? Please tell.. I dont seem to understand how this team thing works. Your facts seem to help. Bro.

I DON'T KNOW what you are trying to argue.. do you? at some point fish every great coach will probably experience a first round loss, as will every great player.. so far lebron has not....to name one.... I think even phil had a first round exit...

what we are talking about fish is what they have done.. karl has been to a few confrence finals and a NBA finals... he has done so without carmelo.. carmelo hasn't done so without karl. his only visit to a confrence final was with karl...

Yes that sonics team was good, and had a REAL franchise player in gary payton.. that is the point... carmelo just isn't that dude!!!!

As far as garnett... all I know is that he has a ring and been to two finals.. when carmelo leaves the knicks and goes to another team and has that type of success than talk to me.. There is nothing to explain about garnett.. he is a champion..

If you are going to bring up other players to help your argument.. let them at least ... help your argument... bringing up champions isn't going to help... Garnett is a franchise changer.. he did so with boston. carmelo came here and failed... can you explain that?

Garnet was NOT a game changer. Thats the point. He could NOT get out of the first round for a decade, and some of those years his team didnt even make the playoffs. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT? Its the exact same set of "excuses" you label the reasons MElo always lost in the first round. You say Melo's teams did well because of Karl, but Karl isnt a great coach. Gary Payton is a HOF player and prob the best or 2nd (Stockton) PG of that generation, yet not only did he have several of his own first round flame outs under Karl but one of the them as a top #1 seed and its regarded as one of the biggest NBA playoff upsets ever. EVER. Care to explain that great coaching? No you cant... because Melo wasnt on that team for you to blame.

By your standards KG didnt do crap in this league and was nothing but a playoff loser for a longer time in this league than Melo. KG joins two HOF player and one of the best young PGs (who had epic playoff games) in the league but he's a game changer. OK. Melo joins JR Smith, Amare who plays 20 minutes and 60 games a year and Tyson Chandler who simply isnt a good basketball player but Melo failed. Got it.

I think its cute you actually believe all this! MElooooo yiyiyiyiyiy Jihad! Please dont build any pipe bombs when Phil resigns him.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:A lot of factors:
Melo better supporting cast
Karl better coach than Saunders etc

We saw what KG(all time great, offense, defense and leadership, kills you in multiple ways) did when he finally had spree cassel and Wally. Unfortunately they weren't good enough a supporting cast to compete with Duncan Shaq and Kobe

Take KG's supporting cast up a level(pierce Allen rondo) and he wins a ring. It's not that hard

Do you see Melo winning a ring as the Big Kahuna is the question?

Or as a robin to a batman?

I go with the latter.

Melo @ $25-30mil pretty much guarantees that it continues to be all about Melo

Which again is good enough if the goal is to make the playoffs

This really isn't that hard goddammit!!!

when KG joined that team was he the big Kahuna? Pretty sure led the team with 9ish boards and thats about it. Yup.. he was 3rd in minutes, 2nd in scoring. Thats the big Kahuna? Seems to me he came in and played exactly the Robin role your talking about. Let other guys do their thing. Was that even KG's team? Seems like Pierce was the finisher there anyway.

So what have we learned?

Same point in their careers: KG, a coveted player around these parts was a bigger loser than Melo at same point in their careers. KG comes to Boston, plays 2nd fiddle to other players and wins one title, instantly becomes the player that MElo never could after the age of 30. OK... got it.

His game was declining into his 30s. Much like Melo soon will. Both guys came into the league in their teens and have logged a ton of minutes by the age of 30

Difference is KG is still effective going to 2 finals and toe to toe with Miami in recent years because he effects the game in a number of different ways. Passing scoring defense and leadership. What's melo's defense going to look like in 2-4yrs?