Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

tkf wrote:

Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

Amare came to NY and to a young team, got off to an unbelievable start... had the knicks headed to the playoffs with a 28-26 record... Basketball was exciting in NY again, there were draft picks available, picks, it was starting to turn around.. amare said all of the right things... it was a sign of better things to come...

The injuries robbed him of his explosiveness, that he can't help... He gets love because he comes across as a more genuine dude, on and off the court...

I don't believe that they were headed in the right direction. They were going south for a while before the trade.

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

Amare came to NY and to a young team, got off to an unbelievable start... had the knicks headed to the playoffs with a 28-26 record... Basketball was exciting in NY again, there were draft picks available, picks, it was starting to turn around.. amare said all of the right things... it was a sign of better things to come...

The injuries robbed him of his explosiveness, that he can't help... He gets love because he comes across as a more genuine dude, on and off the court...

I don't believe that they were headed in the right direction. They were going south for a while before the trade.

that may have been due more to doldrums combined with the notion of a trade hovering over the team for weeks. not as bad as "i want to test free agency" but still difficult. ironically, the more of a burden amare put on himself the less cohesive the team became. had he learned how to pass more and force the action less the knicks and he would have been better off.

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

Amare didn't get their favorite players traded and there's been the media opinion that Melos a selfish, coach killing, ball hog that will do whatever he can to make sure the team revolves around him. Seriously, if I was writer and was desperate for a story, I'd just start a rumor that Melo did something - like literally anything - and I'd get plenty of a hits and even a few believers.

Clearly if you polled all the GM's asking which one was a worse move every single one of them would say Amare without batting an eyelash.

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

Amare didn't get their favorite players traded and there's been the media opinion that Melos a selfish, coach killing, ball hog that will do whatever he can to make sure the team revolves around him. Seriously, if I was writer and was desperate for a story, I'd just start a rumor that Melo did something - like literally anything - and I'd get plenty of a hits and even a few believers.

Clearly if you polled all the GM's asking which one was a worse move every single one of them would say Amare without batting an eyelash.

if they were guaranteed anonymity i wonder what the poll would show.

smackeddog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nyk4ever wrote: i'm still glad we signed him

are you really?

I actually want to win. I don't care about a guys back story when it costs 100 million and sinks the ship.

I think your being a little ungreatfull. When someone one comes through for you when your down and out, you don't kick them to the curb when your back on top. We had 10 yrs of hard to watch basketball. Signing amare was a no brainer

You seem like you would hve been content with gallo, lee and chandler winning an avg of 40 games a season. Yeah we would have had cap space, but honestly since amare has gotten here, what big name FA did we miss out on because of cap space.

David Lee
DRAGIC
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Paul Milsap

Pick any, but that is not even the point. We don't need tier 1's. We need to build an efficient team not blow the bank on Amare when the only offer he got was 3 years to remain in PHX. His crash was not that hard to predict.

Amare came through for us? How by giving us a half of a good season of a 5 year cap killer?

Fans follow their hearts way too much. Do you think that the knicks brass thinks that they made a huge mistake?

Dude that is the ultimate bull sht (his crash was easy to predict) how in the world can you say that..You think donnie was dumb enogh to sign a player who had 6 months left in his tank for a 100 mill.

Howard never ever wanted to play in ny

Dragic is a good player, but the suns are not elite, and no ones flocking over there to play with him

Milsap, you mean the guy on the stuggling hawks

chris paul wasn't coming over here to play with gallo and chandler, and after getting melo we had nothing to offer in a trade..

Ultimate BS? Why was he not insured? Why did teams not tender offers?

I would take Dragic over any of our players. Dude is great! Who says a team has to be elite? They are playing solid bball at 43-29 I would give my left nut for that record and him as our PG.

I find it funny how fans globally measure a teams success by one player. Its a "team".

Hmm, so the list of players you've said you like is : Dragic, Kevin Love, Jeff Hornacek... I'm starting to see a pattern...

You forgot the other 3 players on the list (CP3, Howard, Millsap) who are all Black.

They are?

I like those 3 because they are super efficient and Hornacek was so damn good and got zero props. He also made 25 million for his entire career. He was/is proof that most GM's back then did not have a clue as to what constitutes value.

And by the way I am a bigot to any inefficient / overrated player.

I knew that much about you, which made his inquiry so bizarre. Even if you listed just the players he mentioned, I'm not sure why anyway would object. Dragic and Love with Melo would put us in the stratosphere of the Pacers.

It was mainly from other threads- it's like when people say their favorite rappers are Eminem and the Beastie Boys- might just be a coincidence but I do always think "hmmm"! Probably also I'm a bit snarky because he keeps blasting players I like- Allan Houston and Amar'e !

My favorite player as I've stated many times is Noah. I reckon that he black.

Perhaps you be verbalizing your own internal subliminal hate / racism?

If you actually read my posts before you idiotically inferred a racial bias, you would have a better idea of where I stand and the kind of players that I like.

I loved Chauncy Billups I beh-lee dat he black too.

But ... carry on

mreinman wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Dagger wrote:I'll never understand why this guy gets more love than melo. Never. Goes to show how far "image" can get you, especially with impressionable fans.

Amare didn't get their favorite players traded and there's been the media opinion that Melos a selfish, coach killing, ball hog that will do whatever he can to make sure the team revolves around him. Seriously, if I was writer and was desperate for a story, I'd just start a rumor that Melo did something - like literally anything - and I'd get plenty of a hits and even a few believers.

Clearly if you polled all the GM's asking which one was a worse move every single one of them would say Amare without batting an eyelash.

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:
My favorite player as I've stated many times is Noah. I reckon that he black.

Perhaps you be verbalizing your own internal subliminal hate / racism?

If you actually read my posts before you idiotically inferred a racial bias, you would have a better idea of where I stand and the kind of players that I like.

I loved Chauncy Billups I beh-lee dat he black too.

But ... carry on

To be honest, I haven't even noticed you on these boards until a few weeks ago- only really noticed you on threads when you were praising guys like Dragic (who I like), Kevin love (whom I hate!), Hornacek (who I'm indifferent towards), etc- didn't see you proclaim your like of Noah (we're agreed on that!), or you mentioning of Billups.

You're in my bad books for attacking Allan Houston though- I get protective of my 90s Knicks!

I actually liked Allen Houston and will never forget the shot he hit against Miami. I just think that he was overrated by knick fans just like we (way) overrate most of our players.

Comparing Houston to hornacek who made bubkes and Hornacek was a much better player yet most knick fans will probably say Houston was better. There was also very little data that was available then about players. Now things are viewed far differently and more correctly.

Hornacek was a grossly underrated player and will probably be underrated as a coach too. Most experts had the suns winning < 20 games this year yet they are at 43 wins and counting.

What do you hate about KLove? His defense?

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:
My favorite player as I've stated many times is Noah. I reckon that he black.

Perhaps you be verbalizing your own internal subliminal hate / racism?

If you actually read my posts before you idiotically inferred a racial bias, you would have a better idea of where I stand and the kind of players that I like.

I loved Chauncy Billups I beh-lee dat he black too.

But ... carry on

To be honest, I haven't even noticed you on these boards until a few weeks ago- only really noticed you on threads when you were praising guys like Dragic (who I like), Kevin love (whom I hate!), Hornacek (who I'm indifferent towards), etc- didn't see you proclaim your like of Noah (we're agreed on that!), or you mentioning of Billups.

You're in my bad books for attacking Allan Houston though- I get protective of my 90s Knicks!

I actually liked Allen Houston and will never forget the shot he hit against Miami. I just think that he was overrated by knick fans just like we (way) overrate most of our players.

Comparing Houston to hornacek who made bubkes and Hornacek was a much better player yet most knick fans will probably say Houston was better. There was also very little data that was available then about players. Now things are viewed far differently and more correctly.

Hornacek was a grossly underrated player and will probably be underrated as a coach too. Most experts had the suns winning < 20 games this year yet they are at 43 wins and counting.

What do you hate about KLove? His defense?

My hate of Kevin love is probably not based on reason- he's just one of those players that annoys me. I'm also suspicious of players that put up monster stats but somehow their team doesn't win- I genuinely don't know why Kevin Loves stats don't translate to more wins, I know his teammates have been pretty poor so maybe that's it. The lack of defense also bothers me. I guess I worry that he'll be a Knick and we'll spend another 4/5 years with a main player who doesn't play defense- I'm sick of that.

I've been quite resistant to these advanced stats being brought into the game too- I suppose I can see the importance of efficient player, but I just end up liking players on things other than efficiency- grit, fire, competitiveness, toughness, heart- stuff that's hard to quantify.

Ok so you just don't like him. Ok ... everyone is entitled to not like a player without a specific reason. I never blame a player for his team's failure. A team is not just one guy. Rubio who I really loved coming in to NBA has not lived up to expectations. He is a great passer but a horrid shooter. The reason why they lose (according to advanced stats) is because outside of Love they have been a really bad shooting team.

There is a difference between liking players because of grit, fire, heart etc ... and them actually being good.

Rodman was a gritty player with a lot of heart but he was actually really great. So was garnett.

I here this argument about not being keen on advanced stats but that's just people talking because they don't know much about it and they think that their eyes are a better judge of talent. Every team is turning to advanced stats since they work and its proven. Any team that does not will suck because they acquire the wrong players like we have for years.

The eye test had me thinking that L. Aldridge was a top notch player but someone pointed me to his stats and they are very unimpressive. I would take Love over his in a heartbeat.

Like I have said before, if you start reading and following advanced stats your eyes will be opened to a new world and you will see badly you misinterpreted value before. In 3 years you won't ever hear anybody including fans saying that they don't buy into advanced stats.

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:
My favorite player as I've stated many times is Noah. I reckon that he black.

Perhaps you be verbalizing your own internal subliminal hate / racism?

If you actually read my posts before you idiotically inferred a racial bias, you would have a better idea of where I stand and the kind of players that I like.

I loved Chauncy Billups I beh-lee dat he black too.

But ... carry on

To be honest, I haven't even noticed you on these boards until a few weeks ago- only really noticed you on threads when you were praising guys like Dragic (who I like), Kevin love (whom I hate!), Hornacek (who I'm indifferent towards), etc- didn't see you proclaim your like of Noah (we're agreed on that!), or you mentioning of Billups.

You're in my bad books for attacking Allan Houston though- I get protective of my 90s Knicks!

I actually liked Allen Houston and will never forget the shot he hit against Miami. I just think that he was overrated by knick fans just like we (way) overrate most of our players.

Comparing Houston to hornacek who made bubkes and Hornacek was a much better player yet most knick fans will probably say Houston was better. There was also very little data that was available then about players. Now things are viewed far differently and more correctly.

Hornacek was a grossly underrated player and will probably be underrated as a coach too. Most experts had the suns winning < 20 games this year yet they are at 43 wins and counting.

What do you hate about KLove? His defense?

My hate of Kevin love is probably not based on reason- he's just one of those players that annoys me. I'm also suspicious of players that put up monster stats but somehow their team doesn't win- I genuinely don't know why Kevin Loves stats don't translate to more wins, I know his teammates have been pretty poor so maybe that's it. The lack of defense also bothers me. I guess I worry that he'll be a Knick and we'll spend another 4/5 years with a main player who doesn't play defense- I'm sick of that.

I've been quite resistant to these advanced stats being brought into the game too- I suppose I can see the importance of efficient player, but I just end up liking players on things other than efficiency- grit, fire, competitiveness, toughness, heart- stuff that's hard to quantify.

Ok so you just don't like him. Ok ... everyone is entitled to not like a player without a specific reason. I never blame a player for his team's failure. A team is not just one guy. Rubio who I really loved coming in to NBA has not lived up to expectations. He is a great passer but a horrid shooter. The reason why they lose (according to advanced stats) is because outside of Love they have been a really bad shooting team.

There is a difference between liking players because of grit, fire, heart etc ... and them actually being good.

Rodman was a gritty player with a lot of heart but he was actually really great. So was garnett.

I here this argument about not being keen on advanced stats but that's just people talking because they don't know much about it and they think that their eyes are a better judge of talent. Every team is turning to advanced stats since they work and its proven. Any team that does not will suck because they acquire the wrong players like we have for years.

The eye test had me thinking that L. Aldridge was a top notch player but someone pointed me to his stats and they are very unimpressive. I would take Love over his in a heartbeat.

Like I have said before, if you start reading and following advanced stats your eyes will be opened to a new world and you will see badly you misinterpreted value before. In 3 years you won't ever hear anybody including fans saying that they don't buy into advanced stats.

Just out of interest (I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm genuinely curious)- do advanced stats capture the importance of players like Robbert Horry, Derek Fisher, Shane Battier, and players like that?

I think they are a useful tool for finding diamonds in the rough, and revealing things people might miss, but I think the eye test remains valuable. And I think the human element still comes into play- do player choke when everything's on the line or do they excel- heck the Heat won the championship last year in large part because Mike Miller and his broken back somehow turned back the clock and put on a 3 point show. Some things you can't account for, quantify or predict, and I guess it's that unpredictability that interests me in basketball.

System guys like fisher are definitely undervalued to an extent.

Mike Millers advanced stats from last year were excellent.

Clutch numbers are all tracked.

The eyes are still important and a combination of both are crucial so that the intangibles can be spotted especially defensively.