martin wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:fishmike I am very objective when I watch the knicks..

You are truly a comic genius.

LOL

iFIND if funny as well martin that this guy never discusses basketball.... I mean I Hope that is what you find funny....

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:After the anger wears off, really, did you expect any different?

I hate Woodson and he has done a pathetic work, but when your season is literally a rollercoaster of playing bad, then good, then bad and so, players have as much blame. Yesterday's performance was inexcusable in so many levels, that simply saying Woody has lost them again is a terrible excuse. There is no justification for the embarrassment of yesterday when you are supposed to try to make the playoffs.

They might not be eliminated yet, but I completely gave up on them last night. If a team deserves no chance of making the playoffs, is this stupid, immature, irrational, quitting excuse of a team.

Clean the house, Phil. Who really cares? They sure dont.

I agree to some extent, but is not a matter of cleaning house, it a matter of 2 or 3 players, and in all reality it can be any 2 or 3 players on the team. Or you can leave the core intact and add some defenders and a spark plug and by god a new coach with a different philosophy..

its just not 2 or 3 players man.. unless you are talking about our 3 highest paid players... Blame has to start with them first!

in the real world change starts with those who are underperforming.

Does everyone else get a pass? Certainly not... but if you watch the Knicks for 5 minutes (and you are objective) one thing will jump out at you first and foremost and that is the guard play. How many lower tier NBDL guards have to light this team up before we see how deplorable as a group they are?

In terms of Shump/THjr/Felton/Prigs/JR the only one who has performed well this year is Prigs, and he's the backup PG. THjr (like in college) follows his tantalizing scoring streaks with games he cant even hit a shot. Shump has had how many goose eggs this year? JR shot 30% for a good month or more after failing his 4th piss test and Felton (this has been accuratly documented) is the worst starting PG in the league.

Pretty easy to see where the roster overhaul needs to start

Hmmmmm, I wonder which one of the 3 highest paid players is mostly to blame for bad backcourt play?

29 points, 9 boards, 3 dimes, 1 steal, 1 block, 8 FTA, 3 fouls

Fire the guys with the real money first!

jrod, carmelo had a garbage game... the 29 points were just stat padding. he got off to an awful start, took some bad shots and did nothing to stop the lakers from steamrolling us... those were the most useless stats I have seen in a while.. even with carmelo off to a bad start, the knicks got off to a good start, they were up early..... I just don't like piling on the lesser players... if we are putting these types of losses on them, then the problem is much bigger than they are....everyone is to be held accountable, especially the teams best players.

(Garbage game?)
Melo had a bad first quarter but had a very efficient game. 29 points on a TS of 59, 9 rebounds, 8-8 from the foul line. He is usually the opposite this year. Strong firsts and weak 4th's.

Pick the guys who actually sucked on offense please.

And, the defense sucked and thats on everybody but watching Felton on defense day in and day out is just putrid. Perhaps Woody should help him out a little since he is getting torched consistently. If you're point guard is getting broken down on every play then your defense will have a hard time recovering. Teams get passed our front line at will!!

Ray's assists are up? He is almost a full assists below his knick average and .2 better than last year - big whoop.
Ray's TS is at a sweet 47% (badish??). Now combine that with being the worst defensive PG in the history of the game.

Shumpert needs to go - TODAY! I always thought that he was way overrated but I no longer have to think that. Nobody is overrating him anymore.

But we should not be piling on lesser (trash) players and pile a guy who is having a very efficient season.

As far as Amare and Tyson - they get more than their share of abuse but we are not losing because of their efficient play. We are losing because of our guards HORRID efficiency and atrocious defense.

We need a new coach, a new culture, and new players - lets start at PG though I have faith that Phil will make the correct moves and retain who he believes should be retained.

yea... thats tfk being objective. Hee-haw

very objective... and realistic... you guys want to pick the corn out of a pile of shyt and call it the start of a good dinner.

we got smoked.. carmelo was horrible.. dropping a few baskets down by 30 while not defending a lick is not a good game at all.. not one bit...

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:After the anger wears off, really, did you expect any different?

I hate Woodson and he has done a pathetic work, but when your season is literally a rollercoaster of playing bad, then good, then bad and so, players have as much blame. Yesterday's performance was inexcusable in so many levels, that simply saying Woody has lost them again is a terrible excuse. There is no justification for the embarrassment of yesterday when you are supposed to try to make the playoffs.

They might not be eliminated yet, but I completely gave up on them last night. If a team deserves no chance of making the playoffs, is this stupid, immature, irrational, quitting excuse of a team.

Clean the house, Phil. Who really cares? They sure dont.

I agree to some extent, but is not a matter of cleaning house, it a matter of 2 or 3 players, and in all reality it can be any 2 or 3 players on the team. Or you can leave the core intact and add some defenders and a spark plug and by god a new coach with a different philosophy..

its just not 2 or 3 players man.. unless you are talking about our 3 highest paid players... Blame has to start with them first!

in the real world change starts with those who are underperforming.

Does everyone else get a pass? Certainly not... but if you watch the Knicks for 5 minutes (and you are objective) one thing will jump out at you first and foremost and that is the guard play. How many lower tier NBDL guards have to light this team up before we see how deplorable as a group they are?

In terms of Shump/THjr/Felton/Prigs/JR the only one who has performed well this year is Prigs, and he's the backup PG. THjr (like in college) follows his tantalizing scoring streaks with games he cant even hit a shot. Shump has had how many goose eggs this year? JR shot 30% for a good month or more after failing his 4th piss test and Felton (this has been accuratly documented) is the worst starting PG in the league.

Pretty easy to see where the roster overhaul needs to start

Hmmmmm, I wonder which one of the 3 highest paid players is mostly to blame for bad backcourt play?

29 points, 9 boards, 3 dimes, 1 steal, 1 block, 8 FTA, 3 fouls

Fire the guys with the real money first!

jrod, carmelo had a garbage game... the 29 points were just stat padding. he got off to an awful start, took some bad shots and did nothing to stop the lakers from steamrolling us... those were the most useless stats I have seen in a while.. even with carmelo off to a bad start, the knicks got off to a good start, they were up early..... I just don't like piling on the lesser players... if we are putting these types of losses on them, then the problem is much bigger than they are....everyone is to be held accountable, especially the teams best players.

(Garbage game?)
Melo had a bad first quarter but had a very efficient game. 29 points on a TS of 59, 9 rebounds, 8-8 from the foul line. He is usually the opposite this year. Strong firsts and weak 4th's.

Pick the guys who actually sucked on offense please.

And, the defense sucked and thats on everybody but watching Felton on defense day in and day out is just putrid. Perhaps Woody should help him out a little since he is getting torched consistently. If you're point guard is getting broken down on every play then your defense will have a hard time recovering. Teams get passed our front line at will!!

Ray's assists are up? He is almost a full assists below his knick average and .2 better than last year - big whoop.
Ray's TS is at a sweet 47% (badish??). Now combine that with being the worst defensive PG in the history of the game.

Shumpert needs to go - TODAY! I always thought that he was way overrated but I no longer have to think that. Nobody is overrating him anymore.

But we should not be piling on lesser (trash) players and pile a guy who is having a very efficient season.

As far as Amare and Tyson - they get more than their share of abuse but we are not losing because of their efficient play. We are losing because of our guards HORRID efficiency and atrocious defense.

We need a new coach, a new culture, and new players - lets start at PG though I have faith that Phil will make the correct moves and retain who he believes should be retained.

I never been a big fan of TS, I think you are trying to apply it to every situation to make a bad one look good..

The key is to make more shots than you miss... carmelo started off shooting poorly.... very poor... by time he came around and hit a few baskets, they were down close to 30.. basically trading baskets with the lakers down by 30 isn't very productive... he needed that early.. this is the problem when trying to use TS so much.. had carmelo not got off to such a bad start, maybe the knicks dont' fall down 30, maybe the game is a lot closer... now he isn't the only culprit... but I see you went after felton, early on he was one of the few playing pretty good... while the knicks had a lead... I think the announcers actually mentioned that...

Garbage points? yes, stat padding down by 30 is not something I am going to sit here and praise... He was defended pretty well early and took some bad shots as well...

Shumpert needs to go - TODAY! I always thought that he was way overrated but I no longer have to think that. Nobody is overrating him anymore.

he is overrated but It is so hard to judge any young talent on this team under these circumstances.. but I have no problem with him going.. I say everyone needs to go...

As far as Amare and Tyson - they get more than their share of abuse but we are not losing because of their efficient play. We are losing because of our guards HORRID efficiency and atrocious defense.

the guards defense is not good, our PF defense is not good and our SF defense is not good.. Center is ok, but nothing to write home about...

You have never been a fan of TS%? Can you please tell me the statistical issue that you have with it? I am not sure how someone can "not like it". Its e very basic barometer of efficiency. Now, if that makes the players you like look bad and the players you don't like (or hate) look good, then maybe you should realize that you are misjudging players.

Melo started off 0-7 and the knicks were up by 7. So his start did not hurt the knicks (in this case).

He then went 10/14 to finish the game. That is not garbage points.

You can't blame a player for missing shots at any point. Every player will go through stretches of misses. He is usually very hot in the first quarter. Using TS and other advanced metrics, especially if you look at a large sample almost always rates players correctly (offensively).

The key is not to make more shots than you miss (as you state above), the key is to take the combinations of shots that can net your team the most points. The average from 3% is 35%. So, hitting only 35 percent of threes is better than hitting more than half of your 2's. This is not debatable, its fact.

I know that you don't like putting a big share of the blame on Felton (since you believe that its removes blame from Melo) but he is our worst player by 1000 miles and he is our starting PG. He is also the worst defender I have ever seen at that position allowing every PG he guards to get to our second line at will.

Melo has been quite efficient as a knick and the stats prove it. Therefore, you belittle the stats with zero argument to back it up.

Just because he is efficient, I still have issues with his shot selection and believe he can be even more efficient (close to 60 TS). If he and pjax/thibs/mchale make these adjustments, them I believe that he can be called a superstar. And, these are very minor tweaks with a big payoff.

I already explained it.. I think for instance what you often do is use that stat to try to paint a good picture out of a bad one. I think TS has it place, its value, but it is often overused and misused..

I know this is an exaggeration but It is like having a 25 point shot on the court...that is beyond half court and some one shoots 1-20 from that range, yet add that into the forumla and it paints a picture as if the guy is efficient when he really isn't... is he in effect an efficient scorer? well by definition I guess so.. if he takes a total of 25 shots and he shoots 50% from everywhere else he will average well over 30 if you count in FT's... but what is happening while he misses the other 19 shots.. now I know that is an exaggerated example, but it applies the same.. for me, it gets back to this... Hit more shots than you make!! I want efficient shooting more or less..

mreinman wrote:That's incorrect.

75 points per 60 possession would be fantastic. It would be nicer if he can get off these half court shots early the possessions (at that same rate obviously). You know why? Because then we could have many more possessions for many more attempts at the 25 pointer.

TKF, I don't think you are comprehending the numbers or the statistical argument/facts. This argument is a falacy and proven to be very wrong.

Houston as a team takes ~35% of their shots from 3 and are hitting 35.7 percent of them (just above average). The rockets take almost all their shots either beyond the arc or within 15 feet. In between, are far lower percentage and inefficient shots and shots in this are are also contested at a much higher rate, hence the lower percentages.

Morey, embraces advanced stats and he is doing a great job with them. Most other teams are late but are now trying to catch up.

I saw you post from Grantland yesterday. So I hope you will read this. It does a very good job explaining what you are not seeing.

http://grantland.com/features/the-reliance-3-pointer-whether-not-hurting-nba/

for a team, but not for an individual.. here is my point if you are shooting 1-20 that is 5%, so what happens the game he only takes 10 shots? he may not even make a shot that game.. is that good? is that efficient? I comprehend the numbers.. I think you are misusing the numbers..

you do understand that no team has won a finals taking a high number of threes, right?

I like morey, but he also uses other sorts of advanced metrics, not just TS.. I read an article where it goes into all types of advanced stats he looks at, and each are considered differently for each player, different situations.. you are trying to take the TS and apply it as a positive in every situation, ignoring the simple fact that you want to make more shots than you miss..... do you not?

Houston as a team takes ~35% of their shots from 3 and are hitting 35.7 percent of them (just above average). The rockets take almost all their shots either beyond the arc or within 15 feet. In between, are far lower percentage and inefficient shots and shots in this are are also contested at a much higher rate, hence the lower percentages.

maybe houston needs to work on the midrange shot.. I watch them a lot and they do take a lot of threes.. maybe houston would be an even better offensive team if they take more of the shots they hit more of the time...

TS does what it sets out to do, but I think it is just mis-applied by most... as I said in the end.. I think everyone prefers those who make most of the shots they take..

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:That's incorrect.

75 points per 60 possession would be fantastic. It would be nicer if he can get off these half court shots early the possessions (at that same rate obviously). You know why? Because then we could have many more possessions for many more attempts at the 25 pointer.

TKF, I don't think you are comprehending the numbers or the statistical argument/facts. This argument is a falacy and proven to be very wrong.

Houston as a team takes ~35% of their shots from 3 and are hitting 35.7 percent of them (just above average). The rockets take almost all their shots either beyond the arc or within 15 feet. In between, are far lower percentage and inefficient shots and shots in this are are also contested at a much higher rate, hence the lower percentages.

Morey, embraces advanced stats and he is doing a great job with them. Most other teams are late but are now trying to catch up.

I saw you post from Grantland yesterday. So I hope you will read this. It does a very good job explaining what you are not seeing.

http://grantland.com/features/the-reliance-3-pointer-whether-not-hurting-nba/

for a team, but not for an individual.. here is my point if you are shooting 1-20 that is 5%, so what happens the game he only takes 10 shots? he may not even make a shot that game.. is that good? is that efficient? I comprehend the numbers.. I think you are misusing the numbers..

you do understand that no team has won a finals taking a high number of threes, right?

I like morey, but he also uses other sorts of advanced metrics, not just TS.. I read an article where it goes into all types of advanced stats he looks at, and each are considered differently for each player, different situations.. you are trying to take the TS and apply it as a positive in every situation, ignoring the simple fact that you want to make more shots than you miss..... do you not?

Houston as a team takes ~35% of their shots from 3 and are hitting 35.7 percent of them (just above average). The rockets take almost all their shots either beyond the arc or within 15 feet. In between, are far lower percentage and inefficient shots and shots in this are are also contested at a much higher rate, hence the lower percentages.

maybe houston needs to work on the midrange shot.. I watch them a lot and they do take a lot of threes.. maybe houston would be an even better offensive team if they take more of the shots they hit more of the time...

TS does what it sets out to do, but I think it is just mis-applied by most... as I said in the end.. I think everyone prefers those who make most of the shots they take..

TKF, yet again, it looks like you did not read the article I posted. Did you? If you did read it or have all the others that I posted, you could not have responded this way still completely missing the basic facts.

"team has never won the finals taking a high number of threes"

What is a high number of threes? Did you actually check the stats on that? No, you did not because I did.

Of course Morey or any other sane person does not only look at TS because if he did, he would be an idiot. TS is a very good measure of (proper/adjusted) FG%. While FG is not really used anymore (by non simpletons) since it does not value 3's and FT's, and eFG% which is better but only values 2's and 3's, TS values all 3 so it is obviously the best of the 3. Please tell me where I have misused this. You have said this numerous times but you do not ever make a case for this.

Pick one advanced metric and make a case for your guys (Iverson, , !Melo, Spreewel ...) and don't say finals, playoffs, wins etc ... that does not fly in this world. Show me the metric that shows positive sum contribution. Win Shares, Wins Produced, ORtg, Drtg, efficiency etc ...

Advanced stats are far more than TS (obviously). If you take some time and research sabermetrics, you may find it very enlightening. There are many players with a weak TS but still very much net positive players (e.g. Jason Kidd). However, these players always show their net positive in other metrics (not in the grit and heart test).

Maybe Morey needs to have his team take more midrange shots? You mean 15 - 22 range? You read my post of why they are smarter then that right?

TS does what it sets out to do

And what is that?

but I think it is just mis-applied by most...

How is that?

as I said in the end.. I think everyone prefers those who make most of the shots they take..

THIS comment shows how you are completely missing the boat, have not read anything that I posted and have not read any of the supporting articles that I posted. And, forget about basic math and basic common sense.

If you choose to ignore the basics and you are definitely CHOOSING to ignore them, then I can't help you. As I have said, if you are willing to listen and be open minded then I am willing to inform you.

I have given you statistical arguments every step of the way. I have made it impossible to refute. I have given you supporting articles with finite conclusions yet you choose to continuously ignore them in a very illogical way.

Stick with FG% if you prefer ...

for your guys (Iverson, , !Melo, Spreewel ...)

my guys Iverson and melo? what the hell are you smoking?

I have given you statistical arguments every step of the way. I have made it impossible to refute. I have given you supporting articles with finite conclusions yet you choose to continuously ignore them in a very illogical way.

Stick with FG% if you prefer ...

no you havent you have yet to explain to me, how making more shots than you miss is not preferred? what you are doing is using TS to make up for players not shooting well.. that is not using it correctely.. are you telling me you don't want to make more shots than you miss? just answer that question?

when you do that.. TS becomes less relevant....

If you choose to ignore the basics and you are definitely CHOOSING to ignore them, then I can't help you. As I have said, if you are willing to listen and be open minded then I am willing to inform you.

Ignore the basics.. dude you are the biggest smoke and mirrors talker on here.. the basics are simple.. do you not want to make more shots than you miss? in other words.. if you take 18 shots do you want to hit 16 of them or 7 of them? In the end the key is to make more than you miss, so why not take the more of the shots you shoot the best?