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The Toronto Raptors remain interested in trading Kyle Lowry. Let's get the deal done. How can we do it? give up who?
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djsunyc
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1/28/2014  2:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  2:17 PM
fitzfarm wrote:Plus Toronto at least gets something for nothing if he leaves via free agent in the off season. You can't keep players in Toronto, also ray,jr,Damar,Amir Johnson,Val is a ok team ...not much of a downgrade. Also Toronto has a love affair for Lin. ray has a movable contract. I don't care what people say about jr he's super talented..Also what kinda trouble will he get into in Toronto lol

ray is garbage.
jr smith is a bonafide cancer and a terrible player for a young team.

you remove the coach on the floor and the team falls apart. you remove lowry and it hurts the development of our younger players. lowry is a legit starting pg that contending teams want. only issue is that he is now playing well above what teams are offering.

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BigDaddyG
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1/28/2014  2:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  2:36 PM
djsunyc wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
djsunyc wrote:ah yes, tim haradway junior...the new landry fields. or the old iman shumpert? maybe the new frank williams?

Comparing THJ with Fields??? really??? One guy has a great outside shot, the other can't hit the side of a barn. One guy is athletic, the other not so much. BTW why do u even post here anymore? You are a raptors fan. Stick to the raptors site.

landry fields in his rookie season was 10X the player thj is now. my point is that he's just the flavor of the month and fanbases always overrate their own young players. no player should be deemed "untouchable". and you think melo is gonna hang around and wait for a guy like thj to develop into a player melo needs now to win?

ask melo today - who do you want, a rookie and watch him develop for 3 years or a pg that plays both ends of the court in his prime right now? you want players in their prime right now to coincide with melo's prime.

You're wrong about Landry being 10x times the player THJ was during his rookie season. They are comparable. I don't expect THJ to be career 40 percent three-point shooter, but I don't expect his shot to fall off as much as Landry's did. What's with the hard sell anyway. If Kyle is such a leader for your team, you should be happy that the Knicks, or any team, aren't looking to trade for him.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
nyk4ever
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1/28/2014  2:31 PM
it's funny how people were bashing me for wanting lowry at "that price"... yeah, it was a great idea to turn down that package
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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1/28/2014  2:42 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:You're wrong about Landry being 10x times the player THJ was during his rookie season. They are comparable. I don't expect THJ to be career 40 percent three-point shooter, but I don't expect his shot to fall off as much as Landry's did. What's with the hard sell anyway. If Kyle is such a leader for your team, you should be happy that the Knicks, or any team, aren't looking to trade for him.

not really trying to sell anything. i want lowry to remain a raptor. i'm just trying to convey the point that lowry is miles better than felton - really not even close and that trading a player like thj shouldn't be a stopping point in negotiations. i'm thrilled dolan vetoed - his blunder changed the course of both teams history.

fishmike
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1/28/2014  2:56 PM
Clean wrote:Are we seriously talking about giving up Tim or Shump plus a 1st for a player who can leave in 2 to 3 months? We Knick fans are like dogs getting distracted by the next shiny thing. In this case is it the same shiny thing we have seen before. My stance has not changed one bit. I am done giving up unprotected picks for free. Do I think Lowry is worth a protected 1st yes. Do I think he is worth a protected 1st when he can leave in 2 to 3 months? Hell no!

Knicks fans and front office always thinks that the future don't matter because we have to try and win now. Well, at some point the future becomes the present. Right now was the future back during the melo trade and look how awesome that turned out to be. We are without a draft pick that was close to be top 3 at multiple points during the season. Not to mention this will be the best draft since Lebrons draft. Until we stop putting off the future like it is some fantasy you read in a fairy tale we will forever be the laughing stock of the league.

there is a middle ground. If your lucky enough to have a franchise caliber talent then the time is now. I mean we are coming off a 50+ win season and secound round. Obviously this squad isnt as good and isnt playing well either. Missing key vets that stepped up at various times to have a big impact. That and our whole backcourt has sucked this year short of the rookie.

If the Knicks trade for Lowry then you take cap space off the table for the future. Your core is Lowry/Melo/Chandler/THjr because you figure getting Lowry costs you Shump and Felton. Is that enough to compete for a title? Probably 50 wins and 2nd round again, but no... I dont see that as a title caliber team. Really good though. That being said I think it gets you closer so you give it a shot... We have a 3-4 year window with MElo as a centerpiece. Either you go all in or tear it down. I dont see the point in hedging. What does it get you?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BigDaddyG
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1/28/2014  3:04 PM
djsunyc wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:You're wrong about Landry being 10x times the player THJ was during his rookie season. They are comparable. I don't expect THJ to be career 40 percent three-point shooter, but I don't expect his shot to fall off as much as Landry's did. What's with the hard sell anyway. If Kyle is such a leader for your team, you should be happy that the Knicks, or any team, aren't looking to trade for him.

not really trying to sell anything. i want lowry to remain a raptor. i'm just trying to convey the point that lowry is miles better than felton - really not even close and that trading a player like thj shouldn't be a stopping point in negotiations. i'm thrilled dolan vetoed - his blunder changed the course of both teams history.


I agree that this year's Kyle Lowry, the guy who shares may of the qualities of a fluke year player and is playing for a contract, is miles better than Felton. But what about last year's Kyle Lowry, the guy who couldn't beat out Jose Calderon for a starting a spot? Lowry's performance last year was more in line with his career numbers.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
djsunyc
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1/28/2014  3:14 PM
read this article:

The preseason meeting was called by Masai Ujiri, the freshly minted general manager of the Toronto Raptors. Seated around the table were Raptors chairman Larry Tanenbaum, team president Tim Leiweke, Ujiri and his senior advisor Wayne Embry, a Hall of Famer. They were gathered for a kind of intervention on behalf of 27-year-old Kyle Lowry, an overachieving point guard who had developed a reputation for undermining his teams and himself.

"I said, 'Kyle, these are All-Star people, successful people, and we want to put you in that same position," recalled Ujiri. "I said, 'Some of the things you do doesn't show that you want to be in that position. We want to give you opportunity to change the culture here that we are going to grow -- we want to give you that opportunity."'
Their criticism was meant to be constructive. One by one, Ujiri and his colleagues told Lowry of the potential they saw in him, of the leadership their team needed from him, and of this opportunity to become the player that they and he believed he could become.

"It put a lot of things into perspective for me," said Lowry. "For him to have those guys in that room with me was big for me. All these guys telling you how important you are, it's humbling. It makes you just focus in on, you do not want to let these guys down because of what they are telling you."

Lowry spent the opening five weeks putting their advice into practice, but to no avail. Ujiri had already shipped Andrea Bargnani to the Knicks for three picks (including a first rounder in 2016) and three players; on Dec. 10, after he packaged Rudy Gay to Sacramento, the Raptors were a disappointing 7-13. It was time to investigate the value of the team and the potential for improvement. The next moveable piece was Lowry.

"I explained to him and his agent it could go either way," said Ujiri. "If we develop and play well and grow as a team, then I have to look at this one way; and if we totally collapse and we're not winning very often, then I have to figure out something. Kyle knew and his agent knew. He was really professional and he really pushed the team, so give him all credit. It wasn't something where we were doing stuff without him knowing; I spelled it out in every possible way I could."

But there was no market for Lowry, which spoke not only to the reputation he had earned as a destructive leader, but also to the urgency of his current mission. At 6-feet and 175 pounds there was a hint of Isiah Thomas to his game: He fought so hard to compete against the bigger opponents that he created enemies. In Lowry's case he was blind to the negative impact he made on his own teams, which led to his departure from the Grizzlies (who picked him No. 24 out of Villanova in 2006) and the Rockets, who were relieved to trade him to Toronto in 2012. The message of the Raptors leadership was for Lowry find a way to channel his competitiveness in a constructive way.

"Just be a pro at all times," said Lowry of their advice. "Be a pro, lead the team. When something goes bad you can't let anything put your head down; you got to make sure everyone knows and sees that you're ready to go and you're confident. Don't worry about what people say or what happened in the past. Just worry about right now, this year. Just worry about every single game and worry about winning."

The only team known to be interested in trading for Lowry last month was the Knicks, and even they weren't sure whether he would do more harm than good on their dysfunctional roster. As the negotiations with New York stalled, Lowry was making his best effort to put the good advice into effect.

"It made a huge, huge difference," said Raptors coach Dwane Casey of the meeting. "Just hearing it from them made a huge impression. If it doesn't, then the guy's brain dead. Kyle has responded to it. He's been great with it.
"Everybody grows up, everybody has an opportunity to change. Kyle has changed from that perception that's around the league to where he is right now. He's been a great teammate. I think the turning point was that meeting that Masai had with Wayne and Larry and Tim -- they just laid it out, here it is on the table, here is what we're looking for, there's no gray area. Coach is our coach. You're the player. There is no player-coach controversy. Whatever coach says ..."

While the Knicks vacillated -- the rumors of a trade having been widely reported -- the Raptors thrived. It makes sense now, even though it was unexpected at the time: The departure of Gay has created space for DeMar DeRozan to emerge as a potential All-Star. A starting role was created for second-year guard Terrence Ross, who responded to the increased responsibility by simplifying his game and seizing opportunities instead of forcing them.

The trade was no fleecing, because the Kings, winners in four of their last five games, have been happy with the talent upgrade they've received with Gay. But the instant improvement of the Raptors has been phenomenal all the same. They've gone 13-6 to rise to No. 4 in the East at 19-18 overall. Their defense ranks among the NBA's top three in the New Year, and all of their good news is revolving around the relentless attacking style of Lowry at both ends of the floor. So far this month he's 23 for 47 from three-point range (48.9 percent) while averaging career bests of 16.0 points and 7.4 assists for the season, with an assist-turnover ratio of 3.44 that ranks third among point guards.

"Pass, shoot, rebound, play defense, take charges -- he's a do-it-all point guard," said Ross. "If he was 6-4 or 6-5, he'd be a crazy, crazy force. It's crazy what he puts his body through. It's like man, you probably could play football. He's helping everybody get better."

If the Knicks had traded for Lowry, would he be having the same positive impact? Maybe not: Maybe the absence of structure and a single-minded point of view in New York would have aggravated the worst side of his competitive nature.

"He's done a good job of working with the young players -- he communicates with (Jonas) Valanciunas, he's been great," said Casey. "I haven't seen a lot of change as far as that edge. And I don't want to lose that edge. I want him to be that junkyard dog on the floor. But also communicate more. He's done everything we've asked him to do: communicate with the staff, teammates. So far so good."

That last statement carries the most weight: For these last five weeks amount to nothing more than a good first step for Lowry and his Raptors. Who knows whether it will lead to long-term success? In the meantime, this first step is better than any other direction they might have taken. "I think Kyle is really trying his best," said Ujiri. "He's always been in a situation where there is another point guard that is high-caliber behind him, pushing back at him. Now he's been given the team. You're a starting point guard. Run your team."

Ujiri was hired to bring success to a franchise that has won one divisional title and one playoff series in 18 seasons. The obvious route would have been to tear down and rebuild. Instead he has found promise in an experienced championship coach (as a Mavericks' lead assistant) in Casey, and in a talented young roster with upside whose oldest starter is Lowry, just now hitting his prime.

The biggest difference that Ujiri has made in his short time has been to unload the players that didn't fit while showing faith in those that do. Where others saw problems in Lowry, the Raptors saw hope. Lowry will be a free agent this summer, and if he is able to maintain and build upon Toronto's last month of good play, then he may have found himself a home.

"With me being older and having the summer I had - having a son, having a wife -- it's one of those things where you learn, you grow up, you mature," said Lowry. "You understand that things aren't always going to be perfect, but you have to fight through them.

"I worked my ass off to be in good shape," Lowry went on, "and to make sure to prove people wrong. I want to be better, but I think right now I'm damn good. I think I can hold my own against anybody."


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140117/toronto-raptors-kyle-lowry-masai-ujiri/#ixzz2rj4PvYYz

he headbutted with casey and casey preferred jose's style. he had the same issues in houston but he performed well there. he never had full control of a team with a pg lurking in the background. this could be a contract year guy but he's played the same style and way on the court wherever he's been. last year was the blip on the radar. he's the same guy from houston, just more mature. my only concern with him is getting hurt.

on a side note, look at how ujiri approached a player like kyle. that's why he's regarded as one of the best gm's out there.

gunsnewing
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1/28/2014  4:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  4:40 PM
fishmike wrote:
Clean wrote:Are we seriously talking about giving up Tim or Shump plus a 1st for a player who can leave in 2 to 3 months? We Knick fans are like dogs getting distracted by the next shiny thing. In this case is it the same shiny thing we have seen before. My stance has not changed one bit. I am done giving up unprotected picks for free. Do I think Lowry is worth a protected 1st yes. Do I think he is worth a protected 1st when he can leave in 2 to 3 months? Hell no!

Knicks fans and front office always thinks that the future don't matter because we have to try and win now. Well, at some point the future becomes the present. Right now was the future back during the melo trade and look how awesome that turned out to be. We are without a draft pick that was close to be top 3 at multiple points during the season. Not to mention this will be the best draft since Lebrons draft. Until we stop putting off the future like it is some fantasy you read in a fairy tale we will forever be the laughing stock of the league.

there is a middle ground. If your lucky enough to have a franchise caliber talent then the time is now. I mean we are coming off a 50+ win season and secound round. Obviously this squad isnt as good and isnt playing well either. Missing key vets that stepped up at various times to have a big impact. That and our whole backcourt has sucked this year short of the rookie.

If the Knicks trade for Lowry then you take cap space off the table for the future. Your core is Lowry/Melo/Chandler/THjr because you figure getting Lowry costs you Shump and Felton. Is that enough to compete for a title? Probably 50 wins and 2nd round again, but no... I dont see that as a title caliber team. Really good though. That being said I think it gets you closer so you give it a shot... We have a 3-4 year window with MElo as a centerpiece. Either you go all in or tear it down. I dont see the point in hedging. What does it get you?

I don't see Tyson being part of the core going forward. I don't see us getting Lowry for Felton. We need to trade Tyson for a protected or late 2015 1st round pick then send that to Toronto with Shumpert for Lowry.

We still have our own 2015 lottery thanks to the NBA rule where you can't trade picks in consecutive years. Otherwise that pick would be long gone with the rest of them.

Give me:
Asik or R. Lopez(Gortat, DeAndre-long shots)
Melo
Parsons or Green or Stephenson
THJ
Lowry or Rubio(Lin-long shot)

6th man:
JR
Murray
Felton
Tyler
2015 lottery pick(2way SF/lockdown defender
Veterans

Coach:
Thibs or JVG

I would role with that come 2015-

holfresh
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1/28/2014  4:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  4:14 PM
Didn't know Lowry was such a head case but I knew he has some issues..Thanks for the enlightenment..Contract year, always hurt, no thanks..JR reverted back to his old self after signing his deal...Knicks need to look elsewhere ..Shump and JR has to go as well...I'm not a big believer in sudden change..He is balling tho...
Bonn1997
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1/28/2014  4:15 PM
Dagger wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Dagger wrote:Shump, Felton, and a 1st SHOULD be enough.

If the raptors wont take that then forget it.


They'd be better off letting him walk. You're asking them to pay $18 mil for a distant first round pick and Shumpert - a guy who looks like a 2nd round pick.

Give up more than that when the Raptors have absolutely zero leverage? No thanks. This is not a player the raps have under contract for 4 years? How are they better off letting him walk for nothing than they are getting a 1st round pick, a back-up pg and a SG with decent potential...

Lowry is an above average PG but it's not like we're talking about an elite PG.

They can buy a first round pick (which is the only appealing asset we're giving them) for a lot less than $18 mil. Letting him walk is less bad. You're not looking at the finances of the situation.

gunsnewing
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1/28/2014  4:19 PM
I don't think over ever seen teams buy 1st round picks. I've seen 2nd rd picks be sold
Clean
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1/28/2014  4:27 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I don't think over ever seen teams buy 1st round picks. I've seen 2nd rd picks be sold

Portland acquired James Jones and the draft rights to 24th pick Rudy Fernández from Phoenix in exchange for cash considerations. The trade was finalized on July 11, 2007

BigDaddyG
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1/28/2014  4:29 PM
holfresh wrote:Didn't know Lowry was such a head case but I knew he has some issues..Thanks for the enlightenment..Contract year, always hurt, no thanks..JR reverted back to his old self after signing his deal...Knicks need to look elsewhere ..Shump and JR has to go as well...I'm not a big believer in sudden change..He is balling tho...

Yeah, I'm even leerier after reading that article.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
NardDogNation
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1/28/2014  4:36 PM
sealy wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Toronto has no choice because they know they can't resign him. The plan would be if he works out we can give him some kind of balloon deal if Melo really likes him. and if not let him walk


The Toronto Raptors remain interested in trading Kyle Lowry despite his strong play and the team's recent surge.

Lowry will be a free agent this offseason and the Raptors prefer a return on an asset they are unlikely to re-sign.

The Raptors have yet to find a team willing to meet their asking price for Lowry.


Lowry is a strong candidate for the All-Star Game.

The goal should be to use Tyson Chandler to acquire assets and then use those assets to acquire both Omer Asik and Kyle Lowry. I think Portland could help us get that done.

That would be nice. Hopefully he has a 15-20 rebound game soon.

Question: If Melo leaves, will that leave the Knicks cap flexible this offseason?

Wouldn't mind going after Lance (BK native), with the plan of dealing Shump/JR for something, and seeing Lowry, Stephenson, Asik as 3/5 starters. Plus Asik's contract comes off the books after next year, along w/ STAT's, so there still could be some room to maneuver.

No, the Knicks won't have any cap flexibility in Melo leaves. I'd be hesitant to add Lance Stephenson without a strong, on-court presence of the floor. He is a classic example of an idiot that needs the infrastructure to maximize his value (e.g. JR Smith). If we can develop that kind of infrastructure, I'd love to have him on my team though.

gunsnewing
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1/28/2014  4:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  4:40 PM
Clean wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:I don't think over ever seen teams buy 1st round picks. I've seen 2nd rd picks be sold

Portland acquired James Jones and the draft rights to 24th pick Rudy Fernández from Phoenix in exchange for cash considerations. The trade was finalized on July 11, 2007

Picks are gold now more than ever with true new cba. Teams don t sell

smackeddog
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1/28/2014  4:43 PM
Lowry didn't play so well until Gay got traded- will he really play as well with Melo? We might be better for a season or two, but after that we'd be stuffed.
Dagger
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1/28/2014  4:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2014  4:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Dagger wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Dagger wrote:Shump, Felton, and a 1st SHOULD be enough.

If the raptors wont take that then forget it.


They'd be better off letting him walk. You're asking them to pay $18 mil for a distant first round pick and Shumpert - a guy who looks like a 2nd round pick.

Give up more than that when the Raptors have absolutely zero leverage? No thanks. This is not a player the raps have under contract for 4 years? How are they better off letting him walk for nothing than they are getting a 1st round pick, a back-up pg and a SG with decent potential...

Lowry is an above average PG but it's not like we're talking about an elite PG.

They can buy a first round pick (which is the only appealing asset we're giving them) for a lot less than $18 mil. Letting him walk is less bad. You're not looking at the finances of the situation.

Teams don't sell first round picks often anymore, and most teams don't have money left at the end of the year to buy the pick. If it was that easy we would have a first round pick every year. You're acting like a first round pick has no value, when has that ever been the case? It's sure as hell better than the whole lot of nothing they'll get when he walks. Where do you get the 18 million figure from, the salaries of Felton and Shumpert combined over the next 3-4 years to sound dramatic? Shumpert is an asset, he's not great but he has upside. If you want to talk salaries, even if we agree to an extension with Lowry it will probably be 40 million/4 years, so we're taking 40 MILLION back in salaries for a player that is playing well in a contract year, and may very quickly revert to a 5 million/year quality player. Then we wasted 20 million AND lost assets. The raptors aren't losing anything besides the chance they had to resign Lowry, which is not very high based on their determination to move him.

There is no risk in this move for Toronto and they have no leverage, it's a perfectly acceptable offer for a player they will lose in a few months. Shumpert and Felton are not net negative players and their contracts are small. I feel like I'm talking to Masai Ujiri right now... The Knicks would be fools to offer anymore than Felton, Shumpert and that pick. Anything more would be laughed at around the league as the Knicks getting fleeced again, outbidding themselves, and rightfully so.

Bonn1997
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1/28/2014  4:56 PM
Clean wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:I don't think over ever seen teams buy 1st round picks. I've seen 2nd rd picks be sold

Portland acquired James Jones and the draft rights to 24th pick Rudy Fernández from Phoenix in exchange for cash considerations. The trade was finalized on July 11, 2007


Yeah, it happens about once a draft. Usually current first round non-lottery draft picks go for a couple million. I can't imagine how low the value of a 2018 pick would be.
gunsnewing
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1/28/2014  4:59 PM
1st rd pick? Once a draft. He just highlighted the last time a 1st was SF was 2007. 7yrs ago. This is a new cba
Bonn1997
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1/28/2014  5:00 PM
Dagger wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Dagger wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Dagger wrote:Shump, Felton, and a 1st SHOULD be enough.

If the raptors wont take that then forget it.


They'd be better off letting him walk. You're asking them to pay $18 mil for a distant first round pick and Shumpert - a guy who looks like a 2nd round pick.

Give up more than that when the Raptors have absolutely zero leverage? No thanks. This is not a player the raps have under contract for 4 years? How are they better off letting him walk for nothing than they are getting a 1st round pick, a back-up pg and a SG with decent potential...

Lowry is an above average PG but it's not like we're talking about an elite PG.

They can buy a first round pick (which is the only appealing asset we're giving them) for a lot less than $18 mil. Letting him walk is less bad. You're not looking at the finances of the situation.

Teams don't sell first round picks often anymore, and most teams don't have money left at the end of the year to buy the pick. If it was that easy we would have a first round pick every year. You're acting like a first round pick has no value, when has that ever been the case? It's sure as hell better than the whole lot of nothing they'll get when he walks. Where do you get the 18 million figure from, the salaries of Felton and Shumpert combined over the next 3-4 years to sound dramatic? Shumpert is an asset, he's not great but he has upside. If you want to talk salaries, even if we agree to an extension with Lowry it will probably be 40 million/4 years, so we're taking 40 MILLION back in salaries for a player that is playing well in a contract year, and may very quickly revert to a 5 million/year quality player. Then we wasted 20 million AND lost assets. The raptors aren't losing anything besides the chance they had to resign Lowry, which is not very high based on their determination to move him.

There is no risk in this move for Toronto and they have no leverage, it's a perfectly acceptable offer for a player they will lose in a few months. Shumpert and Felton are not net negative players and their contracts are small. I feel like I'm talking to Masai Ujiri right now... The Knicks would be fools to offer anymore than Felton, Shumpert and that pick. Anything more would be laughed at around the league as the Knicks getting fleeced again, outbidding themselves, and rightfully so.


If it sounds dramatic, asking them to spend that much on a 1st round pick in 2018 really is dramatic. It's not monopoly money. They really do have to spend that money. Show me the math. How much is Felton worth? Vet min? OK so that's $1 mil. How much would Shumpert get? I highly doubt more than 2 yrs, $4 mil right now. You're asking them to spend at least $13 mil on a 2018 pick. There's a reason why Toronto rejected that offer. Whether you want to see that reason, doesn't really matter. But show us how the math works out anyway. Or explain why Toronto doesn't care about the total money involved.
The Toronto Raptors remain interested in trading Kyle Lowry. Let's get the deal done. How can we do it? give up who?

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