tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm at the breaking point with this franchise. If they don't start going about things differently and give up on the quick fixes and bandaids I'm gonna give up on the NBA until Dolan is out of the picture. I'm anxious to see in what direction they are headed in. Will there be a plan and direction this time?

Hasn't the plan and direction all along been to try and compete with this core until 2015 and then be players in the 2015 free agent class and then start fresh with a new core built around Melo? Whether right or wrong, i think it's clear that is the plan. Execution is another issue. It was a clear plan, but a poorly executed one thus far.

no that has never been a plan of the knicks, that has been a pipe dream of the fans who are trying to spin this mess into some well thought out long term plan.. hecks no that wasn't the plan and it wasn't the plan when we acquired carmelo..

I have heard that 2015 thing more from the media than the fans. Do you believe all of the major contracts (Melo, Stoudemire, Chandler, and to a lesser extent Bargnani, Kidd, and Camby) expiring in 2015 was just a coincidence? You don't think there was any type of reasoning behind it?

coincidence, I don't believe for one minute that when we signed amare, when we signed chandler and when we made the ridiculous deal for carmelo that this franchise thought one minute about the year 2015.. not one minute.. if you believe that, then I have a bag of magic beans I would love to sell you..

you are banking so much on 2015... who do you think is coming to save the knicks.. rondo has no desire to leave the celtics a team in much better shape than we are, and the wolves who are also in better shape than us have two years to work on kevin love.. are you telling me when we signed amare and traded for camelo the knicks were like, lets make these deals end around 2015 because we are going after rondo and kevin love? no one in NY was thinking about the year 2015 when those deals were signed...

Bargnani was shoved down our throats thanks to CAA.... his deal just happen to be ending soon..thank god..

When we signed Amare and traded for Melo, we had a different GM. Since Grunfield was GM, most of the moves made (with exception of the mid level contracts and below of Novak, Smith, and Felton) were made with the same expiration. I agree, in 2010 the club was not already looking at 2015, in no way did i suggest that. But what about the strategy to allign all large contracts to expire at the exact same time? Do i think it was the primary goal of this team? No. But i don't think it was coincidence either. If you think it is purely coincidence and that thought never crossed Grunfield's mind at any point in time while making moves in 2011, 2012, and 2013, then i would say you are wrong.

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

The plan was formed when Grunnie took over, realizing his 2 largest contracts expired in 2015. He then signed Chandler to the same length and based every move he made on being a title team for 3 years with the opportunity to make big changes in 2015, hence Kidd and Camby expiring then. Was it a good plan or executed right, probably not, but you can see a pattern.

what about JR smith and felton? he signed them didn't he? only pattern I saw was one of ineptitude..and lack of planning.. what about signing novak?

nah, I am not buying that bro..

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

The plan was formed when Grunnie took over, realizing his 2 largest contracts expired in 2015. He then signed Chandler to the same length and based every move he made on being a title team for 3 years with the opportunity to make big changes in 2015, hence Kidd and Camby expiring then. Was it a good plan or executed right, probably not, but you can see a pattern.

what about JR smith and felton? he signed them didn't he? only pattern I saw was one of ineptitude..and lack of planning.. what about signing novak?

nah, I am not buying that bro..

Since Dolan took over has there _ever_ been a plan besides starphucking via free agency and plotting to simply be a marketable team to continue filling the MSG coffers? I see a management that can care less for the fans and/or winning a chip as long as they continue to throw their money at MSG.

NEVER, which is why I am not buying any of this BS that there was some plan for 2015...

we did actually have a plan under walsh.. well walsh had a plan and that was derailed....

knicks1248 wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

The plan was formed when Grunnie took over, realizing his 2 largest contracts expired in 2015. He then signed Chandler to the same length and based every move he made on being a title team for 3 years with the opportunity to make big changes in 2015, hence Kidd and Camby expiring then. Was it a good plan or executed right, probably not, but you can see a pattern.

what about JR smith and felton? he signed them didn't he? only pattern I saw was one of ineptitude..and lack of planning.. what about signing novak?

nah, I am not buying that bro..

Since Dolan took over has there _ever_ been a plan besides starphucking via free agency and plotting to simply be a marketable team to continue filling the MSG coffers? I see a management that can care less for the fans and/or winning a chip as long as they continue to throw their money at MSG.

so you think they should focus on getting draft picks, possibly drafting a guy as high as 5th (feltons draft position) and suffer through `10 yrs of getting it right..you damn right FA's is the way to go

Luck is always a factor.

But OK, FA's are the way to go if you have smart management like say, The lakers, who make smart trades for good players. However didn't they draft Kobe?!?

So yeah, I'm for whatever model out there that the dumbass Dolan can execute. I'm losing confidence after layden, Isaiah, Walsh being sabotaged, etc that ANY plan can be done right by this silver spoon fed faux blues man.

Yes, trying to acquire assets via the draft and ACTUALLY giving a real rebuild a shot "the right way" would be refreshing for a change because you can bash being stuck in lottery hell as not being fun but is this Knicks team "fun" to watch? Are their present and future prospects any better? They suck! Does this roster or these "managers" and owner inspire confidence? Is this "present" reality really a good alternative to rebuilding via the draft and do you trust our management to build a championship team going after FA's with their deplorable track record.

It's all kinda hopeless unfortunately for Knicks fans who've pulled the wool out of their eyes.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

The plan was formed when Grunnie took over, realizing his 2 largest contracts expired in 2015. He then signed Chandler to the same length and based every move he made on being a title team for 3 years with the opportunity to make big changes in 2015, hence Kidd and Camby expiring then. Was it a good plan or executed right, probably not, but you can see a pattern.

what about JR smith and felton? he signed them didn't he? only pattern I saw was one of ineptitude..and lack of planning.. what about signing novak?

nah, I am not buying that bro..

Yes, it was stupid signing those players beyond that season, but each of those players was signed to a cap friendly deal. 3 players signed to a deal of how much money in 2015, 15 million total? Thats less than 1/4 the total expected cap.

knicks1248 wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think they did plan on having all them expire in 2015. A 3yrs run but then they disregarded the plan once they signed Felton and JR past 2016. Now they would live to get rid of them. So in other words the Knicks never stick to a plan and when thry try to have a plan it is never a good plan

you honestly think they were thinking about 2015 when they signed amare and traded for carmelo? I don't buy that for one minute..

The plan was formed when Grunnie took over, realizing his 2 largest contracts expired in 2015. He then signed Chandler to the same length and based every move he made on being a title team for 3 years with the opportunity to make big changes in 2015, hence Kidd and Camby expiring then. Was it a good plan or executed right, probably not, but you can see a pattern.

what about JR smith and felton? he signed them didn't he? only pattern I saw was one of ineptitude..and lack of planning.. what about signing novak?

nah, I am not buying that bro..

Since Dolan took over has there _ever_ been a plan besides starphucking via free agency and plotting to simply be a marketable team to continue filling the MSG coffers? I see a management that can care less for the fans and/or winning a chip as long as they continue to throw their money at MSG.

so you think they should focus on getting draft picks, possibly drafting a guy as high as 5th (feltons draft position) and suffer through `10 yrs of getting it right..you damn right FA's is the way to go

knicks have been trying to recapture the glory of 40 years ago. just had over a decade of mega failure while spending probably more than anyone to do it. why not use all the tools available, which includes the draft (trades/fa too). with the cba as it is, its a cheap way to add potential.

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

tkf wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:And you give up a lot of assets when you trade for the player

True, but if you get the RIGHT superstar, the assets hardly matter. Here's an example...

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017
2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans
Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City
Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012
A large trade exception($15 million or so) that the Cavs must use in trades for one calendar year.

Do you know what that list is?

That's what Cleveland got from Miami in exchange for LeBron James (raise your hand if you remember this was actually a sign-and-trade), and none of these assets matter because they were traded for the right superstar.

Obviously it's MUCH better to draft your superstar(s) (because really you need more than 1 these days). The reality is, most draft picks simply don't work out. However, draft picks aren't SO invaluable that you just throw them away for cap relief.

It's also usually pretty easy to tell whether your're good or bad and can give up draft picks, but miscalculating is dangergous.

exactly, if you trade for the right superstar, but here is the key, you either have to get him early ala harden and you don't spend as much acquiring him.. teams knew he was good, but not that good... Houston took a small gamble and it paid off, I say kudos to them...

or you get colusiongate and have a lebron fall in your lap... otherwiese these "true" superstars are never traded.. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, wade, Duncan, those guys are not getting traded in their prime, they just aren't.. no matter how much they scream and yell... teams don't trade those guys... they either leave via FA... or they stay and win....

Carmelo forced a trade, but he is not in the class with these other guys... we traded way too much to get a Allstar player.. not a superstar. and it is killing us now...

I love how to say Houston took a small gamble, even though they traded a better package than we gave for Melo. (Guaranteed lottery pick, 1 good rookie prospect, 1 SG who averaged 20+ plus per game.) and harden was what 23 when he went to Houston and Melo 26 when he went to ny. You just overexaggerate like crazy.