Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

The #s don't support any of those claims. Even taking care of the ball - Lin has a much better assist:turnover ratio than Smith.
You should check your claims on basketball-reference.com or any other metrics site before making them

Naturally, Smith will have a lower assist to turnover ratio; he doesn't run point and I never suggested he did (I actually stated the opposite). In turns of turnovers per minute, Smith does a better job in not turning over the ball.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

The #s don't support any of those claims. Even taking care of the ball - Lin has a much better assist:turnover ratio than Smith.
You should check your claims on basketball-reference.com or any other metrics site before making them

Naturally, Smith will have a lower assist to turnover ratio; he doesn't run point and I never suggested he did (I actually stated the opposite). In turns of turnovers per minute, Smith does a better job in not turning over the ball.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

The #s don't support any of those claims. Even taking care of the ball - Lin has a much better assist:turnover ratio than Smith.
You should check your claims on basketball-reference.com or any other metrics site before making them

Naturally, Smith will have a lower assist to turnover ratio; he doesn't run point and I never suggested he did (I actually stated the opposite). In turns of turnovers per minute, Smith does a better job in not turning over the ball.

Right, just like naturally the PG has more turnovers. So, again, none of your claims is supported. Vcoug posted all the relevant data.

Bull****. None of it was conclusive.

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

Let's see if this is actually true. All numbers taken from last season.

Shooting:

JR Smith

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
42.2%   45.8%   35.6%    48.4%   52.2%

Jeremy Lin

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
44.1%   48.3%   33.9%    49.0%   53.8%

Defending:

JR Smith

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.3                0.3                106                   2.7

Jeremy Lin

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.6                0.4                107                   2.5

Finishing

JR Smith

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
147/245   60%                     38/125   30.4%          174/333   52.25%

Jeremy Lin

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
207/356   58.15                   33/111   29.73          324/437   53.55

Drawing Free Throws

JR Smith

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.9          .249

Jeremy Lin

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.4          .307

Better at taking care of the ball

This one isn't a fair comparison. Point guards always more turnovers and higher turnover rates because they're trying to create for others. Gunners who don't pass always have fewer turnovers and lower turnover rates because they're just chucking up shots.

As I told Bonn, offering these statistics without context does not prove a point. None of these metrics take into account the extent that opposing teams gameplan for a player, the respective competition that a player faces (first string vs second string) or their respective roles on the team. The game is too dynamic to sum up entirely with numbers, despite what some are leading us to think. At their best, they tell a very limited story, which is why they can only be used in conjunction with an eye test. If not, we would've arrived at the conclusion that David Lee was better than Kobe Bryant in 2007 based on Wins Per 48 minutes and that Kevin Durant was a cancer in 2009.

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

Let's see if this is actually true. All numbers taken from last season.

Shooting:

JR Smith

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
42.2%   45.8%   35.6%    48.4%   52.2%

Jeremy Lin

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
44.1%   48.3%   33.9%    49.0%   53.8%

Defending:

JR Smith

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.3                0.3                106                   2.7

Jeremy Lin

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.6                0.4                107                   2.5

Finishing

JR Smith

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
147/245   60%                     38/125   30.4%          174/333   52.25%

Jeremy Lin

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
207/356   58.15                   33/111   29.73          324/437   53.55

Drawing Free Throws

JR Smith

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.9          .249

Jeremy Lin

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.4          .307

Better at taking care of the ball

This one isn't a fair comparison. Point guards always more turnovers and higher turnover rates because they're trying to create for others. Gunners who don't pass always have fewer turnovers and lower turnover rates because they're just chucking up shots.

As I told Bonn, offering these statistics without context does not prove a point. None of these metrics take into account the extent that opposing teams gameplan for a player, the respective competition that a player faces (first string vs second string) or their respective roles on the team. The game is too dynamic to sum up entirely with numbers, despite what some are leading us to think. At their best, they tell a very limited story, which is why they can only be used in conjunction with an eye test. If not, we would've arrived at the conclusion that David Lee was better than Kobe Bryant in 2007 based on Wins Per 48 minutes and that Kevin Durant was a cancer in 2009.

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

Let's see if this is actually true. All numbers taken from last season.

Shooting:

JR Smith

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
42.2%   45.8%   35.6%    48.4%   52.2%

Jeremy Lin

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
44.1%   48.3%   33.9%    49.0%   53.8%

Defending:

JR Smith

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.3                0.3                106                   2.7

Jeremy Lin

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.6                0.4                107                   2.5

Finishing

JR Smith

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
147/245   60%                     38/125   30.4%          174/333   52.25%

Jeremy Lin

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
207/356   58.15                   33/111   29.73          324/437   53.55

Drawing Free Throws

JR Smith

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.9          .249

Jeremy Lin

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.4          .307

Better at taking care of the ball

This one isn't a fair comparison. Point guards always more turnovers and higher turnover rates because they're trying to create for others. Gunners who don't pass always have fewer turnovers and lower turnover rates because they're just chucking up shots.

As I told Bonn, offering these statistics without context does not prove a point. None of these metrics take into account the extent that opposing teams gameplan for a player, the respective competition that a player faces (first string vs second string) or their respective roles on the team. The game is too dynamic to sum up entirely with numbers, despite what some are leading us to think. At their best, they tell a very limited story, which is why they can only be used in conjunction with an eye test. If not, we would've arrived at the conclusion that David Lee was better than Kobe Bryant in 2007 based on Wins Per 48 minutes and that Kevin Durant was a cancer in 2009.

A good example of this was a few games ago where JR was + 10. If you watched the game you'd know that he had very little to do with it.

Are you talking about the on/off +/-? That's not one of the stats VCoug cited. There are far better stats to look at - stats that have very little dependence on "context"

Bonn1997 wrote:Well we're not gonna agree on a lot of the things you mentioned. I just want to point out though that you didn't say Lin and JR were comparable but rather that JR is better. Those stats pretty conclusively establish that there is not a clear advantage for JR.
The only area that's not close is the scoring efficiency, which is a large advantage for Lin. Note that scoring efficiency is remarkably constant across contexts (new teams, new seasons, etc.). Scoring volume might change but efficiency is unlikely to change much.
And I give a little but not much credibility to wins produced. I'd give more weight to win shares and the offensive and defensive ratings.

You and I play pickup basketball in our neighborhood. You and I are 3 point specialist. You play against high school varsity, and I play against the junior high school JV. You shoot 33% from deep. I shoot 45%. Should I be considered the better shooter based strictly on the metric?

When talking about JR and Lin, we first have to standardized the conditions to get a good idea of what's what. That is extremely difficult to do because the conditions were so dramatically different for the two players. JR was the 2nd best player on a 54 win team. Lin became an afterthought, losing his spot to a dude that was cut from a team in need of a PG earlier that year. The two players were in vastly different circumstances but based on the context and eye test, I go with Smith every time.

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

JR is the better shooter, defender, finisher, drawer of free throws, better at taking care of the ball. Just about anything that doesn't involve the running of an offense, JR is the better of.

Let's see if this is actually true. All numbers taken from last season.

Shooting:

JR Smith

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
42.2%   45.8%   35.6%    48.4%   52.2%

Jeremy Lin

FG%     2FG%     3FG%     eFG%     TS%
44.1%   48.3%   33.9%    49.0%   53.8%

Defending:

JR Smith

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.3                0.3                106                   2.7

Jeremy Lin

Steals/game     Blocks/game     Defensive Rating     Defensive Win Shares
1.6                0.4                107                   2.5

Finishing

JR Smith

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
147/245   60%                     38/125   30.4%          174/333   52.25%

Jeremy Lin

Shot% in the Restricted Area      Shot% in the Paint      Shot% within 8ft of the Hoop
207/356   58.15                   33/111   29.73          324/437   53.55

Drawing Free Throws

JR Smith

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.9          .249

Jeremy Lin

FTA/game     FTr(FTA/FGA)
3.4          .307

Better at taking care of the ball

This one isn't a fair comparison. Point guards always more turnovers and higher turnover rates because they're trying to create for others. Gunners who don't pass always have fewer turnovers and lower turnover rates because they're just chucking up shots.

As I told Bonn, offering these statistics without context does not prove a point. None of these metrics take into account the extent that opposing teams gameplan for a player, the respective competition that a player faces (first string vs second string) or their respective roles on the team. The game is too dynamic to sum up entirely with numbers, despite what some are leading us to think. At their best, they tell a very limited story, which is why they can only be used in conjunction with an eye test. If not, we would've arrived at the conclusion that David Lee was better than Kobe Bryant in 2007 based on Wins Per 48 minutes and that Kevin Durant was a cancer in 2009.

A good example of this was a few games ago where JR was + 10. If you watched the game you'd know that he had very little to do with it.

Are you talking about the on/off +/-? That's not one of the stats VCoug cited. There are far better stats to look at - stats that have very little dependence on "context"

He didn't use it but the point is to demonstrate that every metric is inherently flawed. I discussed JR being the better defender of the two and he provided stats for steals per unit, blocks per unit and defensive rating, which I have no idea how that number is devised. Chances are that the later metric (and really all of them) fail to encapsulate a ton of things that can't be quantified readily, like intimidation factor, number/quality of contested shots per game, the number of other responsibilities the player has on the floor that sap his energy, the team effect vs individual effect vs the opposing player just having a bad game, etc. And really, I could run down the list with each of those metrics. I'm encouraged that people are taking a more scientific approach to the game, no doubt, BUT the first and most central step in the process is the making of an observations and then working backward from that point.

nycisgreat wrote:I didn't want to lose Lin either, but I hated the way he negotiated his way out of NYC. I was fine with Felton coming back the 2nd time around. He played very well when it was him a Stat. Now Felton is injury riddled. I do wish we had Lin too. I think the guy is done.