GustavBahler wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

That's a good point. Novak was rendered useless last season for that very reason. The ball moved under Dantoni and Lin and Novak lit the Garden up

So we should have kept MDA and not promoted the man who in one season as coach has done a better job than MDA since before or after he left Phoenix?

No. I think both coaches are flawed. I hated Dantoni stubbornness to adjust to his roster but at least Dantoni has proven that his brand of basketball is entertaining and while it may not ultimately lead to a championship against the big boy teams of the west at the time. The spurs and lakers. Dantoni at least had some deep runs

Woodson's ISO system is condusive to fattening up on the bobcats and magic of the world during the regular season but then getting completely out coached and exposed in the playoffs. Knicks were lucky to even get out of the 1st round last year. I'm not even going into his time in Atlanta.

Give me a great young coaching mind that understands today's game and players. Gets the most out of the development if his young players and doesn't alienate them like he's some kind of Bob Knight in the 1980s.

A coach that understands both ends if the floor

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

gunsnewing wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

That's a good point. Novak was rendered useless last season for that very reason. The ball moved under Dantoni and Lin and Novak lit the Garden up

So we should have kept MDA and not promoted the man who in one season as coach has done a better job than MDA since before or after he left Phoenix?

No. I think both coaches are flawed. I hated Dantoni stubbornness to adjust to his roster but at least Dantoni has proven that his brand of basketball is entertaining and while it may not ultimately lead to a championship against the big boy teams of the west at the time. The spurs and lakers. Dantoni at least had some deep runs

Woodson's ISO system is condusive to fattening up on the bobcats and magic of the world during the regular season but then getting completely out coached and exposed in the playoffs. Knicks were lucky to even get out of the 1st round last year. I'm not even going into his time in Atlanta.

Give me a great young coaching mind that understands today's game and players. Gets the most out of the development if his young players and doesn't alienate them like he's some kind of Bob Knight in the 1980s.

A coach that understands both ends if the floor

Fair enough on your criticism of both coaches although MDA got 4 years, well almost 4 before he bailed. You might want a new coach and looking at the picture now I can't blame you but if d'Antoni can get 4 years with all the poor decisions he made during that span with very little to show for it, I think Woodson should have more than a quarter a season removed from our best year in ages. Seems only fair.

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

gunsnewing wrote:The inability to spread the floor is one if our many problems

Thats because there is no ball movement. You saw what happened in the first half against the clips when we shared the rock, we looked like a real team. Shows we can do it without Novak. Its on Woodson and the players to do it for 4 quarters.

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

gunsnewing wrote:Shumpert has stopped playing for the coach after the Indiana game when Woodson threw him under the bus and defended Melo and took a $25k fine

Yeah, that doesn't help.

GustavBahler wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Shumpert has stopped playing for the coach after the Indiana game when Woodson threw him under the bus and defended Melo and took a $25k fine

Yeah, that doesn't help.

It started with the summer league games and Dolan. The rumors he wanted Shump gone. He never played better this season. They threw him under the bus at the summer games and he had surgery and probably couldn't play. Dolan messed up the season before it got started by the Signing of Chriss Smith, not signing another big center, getting rid of the GM and messing with Shumps head.

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

if this is Shump, the kid has checked out, he knows he's gone, no need to break a sweat.

I really don't believe Shump is tanking, I think Woodson has handled him poorly and is inside his head. Some players respond differently to the drill sergeant approach, especially if he believes more established vets are getting a pass. I believe Shump really loves playing in NYC and the thought of leaving for maybe some small market hell has him panicked. Just hope he can get his confidence back soon or he will be sent packing.

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

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knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

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knickscity wrote:

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knickscity wrote:

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knickscity wrote:

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knickscity wrote:

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raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

if this is Shump, the kid has checked out, he knows he's gone, no need to break a sweat.

I really don't believe Shump is tanking, I think Woodson has handled him poorly and is inside his head. Some players respond differently to the drill sergeant approach, especially if he believes more established vets are getting a pass. I believe Shump really loves playing in NYC and the thought of leaving for maybe some small market hell has him panicked. Just hope he can get his confidence back soon or he will be sent packing.

I honestly dont think Shump forgot how to defend, thats the area that is most glaring.

I wonder if his knees are giving him problems? Lateral movement isn't what it was, isn't fast enough to slide and take charges this season, he hasn't shown much lift when he elevates either.

Don't know if you watched the last game but he looked much livelier on D, Shump put in the effort. The offense however is still ca ca. He's playing so poorly that they don't look to pass to him anymore. Until Shump can earn their trust again he's going to be on the outside looking in.

But yes, i would expect his defense to be somewhat better against a good team, all of them do that from time to time.