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This SI article sums up the state of Melo and the Knicks well
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CrushAlot
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11/25/2013  8:42 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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CrushAlot
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11/25/2013  8:52 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

you and the author are not looking at matters from a bigger picture. maybe you are both incapable. these were assets that could have either been parlayed into something better for carmelo anthony or whose services could have been retained for him here. you can't predict injury or health but developing young players is constantly being deferred with the knicks.

as soon as melo was acquired through trade the knicks were forced into win-now mode because of the players traded away. and the players brought in to take their place have not been up to snuff. had he come as a free agent a year later the knicks could have continued to build something to the future instead of being sucked back into irrelevance and suffering turmoil.

Again you are living in a fantasy world when you paint this picture of Melo as the villain that robbed the Knicks youth and assets that could have been spared if only he had more character and was a big picture guy. Why do you keep posting this silliness? The economic climate at the time has been explained to you over and over again. Owners were telling players they were reigning in free agency. The Raptors and Cavs had just lost their franchise players for nothing. Your expectation was for Ujiri to let Melo walk for nothing. For Melo to take 33 million less so that he could play with Gallo, Chandler and the 2014 pick. Not sure how these deals where the only party involved wins is the Knicks keep getting reposted. Its like posting fantasy trades. Nothing is real life about it. None of it was going down the way you think it should have. Too much to lose for too many parties involved for everyone to just stand pat at the time. But post it again a thousand times more. It just makes you look less credible like your post about how Amare's back injury and micro fractured knees being reinjured were psychosomatic and caused by the presence of Melo.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
dk7th
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11/25/2013  9:34 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
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11/25/2013  9:38 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

you and the author are not looking at matters from a bigger picture. maybe you are both incapable. these were assets that could have either been parlayed into something better for carmelo anthony or whose services could have been retained for him here. you can't predict injury or health but developing young players is constantly being deferred with the knicks.

as soon as melo was acquired through trade the knicks were forced into win-now mode because of the players traded away. and the players brought in to take their place have not been up to snuff. had he come as a free agent a year later the knicks could have continued to build something to the future instead of being sucked back into irrelevance and suffering turmoil.

Again you are living in a fantasy world when you paint this picture of Melo as the villain that robbed the Knicks youth and assets that could have been spared if only he had more character and was a big picture guy. Why do you keep posting this silliness? The economic climate at the time has been explained to you over and over again. Owners were telling players they were reigning in free agency. The Raptors and Cavs had just lost their franchise players for nothing. Your expectation was for Ujiri to let Melo walk for nothing. For Melo to take 33 million less so that he could play with Gallo, Chandler and the 2014 pick. Not sure how these deals where the only party involved wins is the Knicks keep getting reposted. Its like posting fantasy trades. Nothing is real life about it. None of it was going down the way you think it should have. Too much to lose for too many parties involved for everyone to just stand pat at the time. But post it again a thousand times more. It just makes you look less credible like your post about how Amare's back injury and micro fractured knees being reinjured were psychosomatic and caused by the presence of Melo.

you need to bone up on poker and leverage. this stuff is way over your head.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
CrushAlot
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11/25/2013  9:44 PM
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Papabear
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11/25/2013  10:09 PM
tkf wrote:The paul pierce comparison is a joke.. as pierce was always a willing defender and passer.. pierce was always around the 4-5 assist mark most years..

Another thing, the writer trying to mitigate the pieces in the trade is another fail.. gallo having a torn ACL has what to do with his talent? ok, carmelo has a bum shoulder..

the team won 57 games, remember they were supposed to be the losers in this trade.... eddy curry was just cap fodder, so why mention him? I think denver got what they wanted in the end..

this article is a pipe dream, carmelo has no desire to be a supporting cast, he wants max money and the glory of being "the man"... good luck with that...


Papabear Says

If Paul Pierce was all that why did he need Garnet and Ray Allen? What would have happen if Melo had them. And also If Melo and Pierce were free agents who do you think would get the most attention and the best offers? Hands down it would be Melo. So stop your Paul Pierce loving. I see he ain't doing so good for the Nets.

Papabear
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11/25/2013  10:35 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.
• A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

This list just goes to show that we didn't give up that much to acquire him, definitely much less than we initially thought. We can now say that with hinesight. The most valuable asset will be this year's draft pick. Last year's pick turned into Royce White, and their were very few productive players drafted behind him. In addition, i don't think we would want to have big money tied into Gallo and Chandler right now. Paying them thru 2016 and being tied into the duration of Stoudemire's contract over the last 4 years of it would have been a disaster. The opposing theory that another better deal would have come up instead of Melo is of course possible, but was always wishful thinking, especially given how good the deals for Paul, Dwight, and Harden were. Hell, even Iguodala brought back Bynum, who at the time was the 2nd best center in the league. We would be in a far tougher place than we are right now, still fresh off a 54-win season, thats for sure.

I agree with you post but the Royce White pick was traded with Jordan Hill to get the cap space that became Amare.

U are right

dk7th
Posts: 30006
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11/25/2013  10:54 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  10:57 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

backpedaling and fake outrage... i do neither so cut the crap. you value the wrong things in this sport so people like you worship dinosaurs and relics. that is who melo is and that is the truth.

so far as my injuries, the next best thing to being a trained professional is to be an interested patient. having had my share of injuries, and being interested in the hows and whys of things, i can safely pronounce myself something of an expert relative to others who are not actual physicians/orthopedists... such as yourself.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
tkf
Posts: 36487
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Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
11/25/2013  11:03 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
why are constantly peevish and uncivil?

Is it possible for you to just answer the two questions this comment raises?

dk7th wrote:assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) please provide meaningful stats to disprove the value the author assigned to the human assets that were used to get Melo.

2) given that you have not done (and most likely cannot do) #1, explain how Melo is a greedy fool for coming to NYC.

how about this: any writer worth his salt should not be providing PPG in this day and age as this is the most useless statistic. it's HOW those points are gotten that matters and melo's ppg are inflated points because his TS%, let alone his FG%, is so low. the rebounds he has been getting lately are admirable, save for one slight problem: he is getting offensive rebounds by having to follow his own missed shots after getting the ball crammed back in his face. still he is doing a decent job there. but has been noted by wally and coach collins-- he needs to get his shooting percentage up closer to 50%. collins also added he is working too hard for his points because he insists on going iso. he is a relic, a dinosaur...

knicks are 3-9 and you have every reason to be upset-- i am giving you data that you may not like to see but there is no question that carmelo anthony is a very problematic player even without noting how overmatched he is on defense at either forward position.

he is a fool for grossly overestimating his own value to a team. i can't state it any simpler than that.

in every circumstance except the one where he is the third option on a team his net value on the court is close to zero. as a second option you can almost get away with him but the deeper into the playoffs you go with him as a second option the more trouble you will be in. you can't get him to move without the ball and he won't keep the ball moving no matter who he is playing alongside. he doesn't create for others either. then there's the defense he allegedly plays.

as a third player, a la bosh or allen, carmelo would be a really good value. i can see that. it means the decision-making is taken off his shoulders that much more, which would be a good thing since his BBIQ is very low. but then he should only be looking for 13-14 million a year so he can have an opportunity to get better players than himself here to new york.


Yeah, he should be looking to be a team's third best player taking something like 12 to 14 high quality shots a game.

And making 12-13 mil a game.. He would have to embrace that role, but I doubt that ever happens.. winning the NCAA championship was the worst thing to ever happen to carmelo, he came into the league with so much attached to him, and he really wasn't that kind of player....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Knixkik
Posts: 35476
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11/25/2013  11:19 PM
tkf wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
why are constantly peevish and uncivil?

Is it possible for you to just answer the two questions this comment raises?

dk7th wrote:assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) please provide meaningful stats to disprove the value the author assigned to the human assets that were used to get Melo.

2) given that you have not done (and most likely cannot do) #1, explain how Melo is a greedy fool for coming to NYC.

how about this: any writer worth his salt should not be providing PPG in this day and age as this is the most useless statistic. it's HOW those points are gotten that matters and melo's ppg are inflated points because his TS%, let alone his FG%, is so low. the rebounds he has been getting lately are admirable, save for one slight problem: he is getting offensive rebounds by having to follow his own missed shots after getting the ball crammed back in his face. still he is doing a decent job there. but has been noted by wally and coach collins-- he needs to get his shooting percentage up closer to 50%. collins also added he is working too hard for his points because he insists on going iso. he is a relic, a dinosaur...

knicks are 3-9 and you have every reason to be upset-- i am giving you data that you may not like to see but there is no question that carmelo anthony is a very problematic player even without noting how overmatched he is on defense at either forward position.

he is a fool for grossly overestimating his own value to a team. i can't state it any simpler than that.

in every circumstance except the one where he is the third option on a team his net value on the court is close to zero. as a second option you can almost get away with him but the deeper into the playoffs you go with him as a second option the more trouble you will be in. you can't get him to move without the ball and he won't keep the ball moving no matter who he is playing alongside. he doesn't create for others either. then there's the defense he allegedly plays.

as a third player, a la bosh or allen, carmelo would be a really good value. i can see that. it means the decision-making is taken off his shoulders that much more, which would be a good thing since his BBIQ is very low. but then he should only be looking for 13-14 million a year so he can have an opportunity to get better players than himself here to new york.


Yeah, he should be looking to be a team's third best player taking something like 12 to 14 high quality shots a game.

And making 12-13 mil a game.. He would have to embrace that role, but I doubt that ever happens.. winning the NCAA championship was the worst thing to ever happen to carmelo, he came into the league with so much attached to him, and he really wasn't that kind of player....

What you make is based on market value. Every team with appropriate cap space will pay Melo more than 12-13 million, so that makes him worth much more. I think he belongs as the second best player on a team with championship aspirations. Even in Miami he is possibly second best, so not sure if it's realistic to expect him to be a 3rd fiddle like Bosh.

CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
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Member: #452
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11/25/2013  11:28 PM
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

backpedaling and fake outrage... i do neither so cut the crap. you value the wrong things in this sport so people like you worship dinosaurs and relics. that is who melo is and that is the truth.

so far as my injuries, the next best thing to being a trained professional is to be an interested patient. having had my share of injuries, and being interested in the hows and whys of things, i can safely pronounce myself something of an expert relative to others who are not actual physicians/orthopedists... such as yourself.


Do you believe the stuff you post? Also, some friendly advice. Don't make assumptions about things you know nothing about.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
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11/26/2013  9:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2013  9:44 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Knixkik
Posts: 35476
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
11/26/2013  9:55 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2013  9:59 AM
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
11/26/2013  10:09 AM
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

So true. I mean, for someone who suhucks so bad, he sure exerts a tremendous amount of negative force on everything around him. How many dogs could this guy have killed in one 30 year span? Now it's bad that he won an NCAA championship. Unfricking believeable.

At least he hasn't been blamed for Dolan yet. Or has he?

NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

11/26/2013  10:17 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2013  10:22 AM
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another trade to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks were far more compelling than the offer NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

Knixkik
Posts: 35476
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
11/26/2013  10:28 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

11/26/2013  10:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2013  11:09 AM
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

Knixkik
Posts: 35476
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
11/26/2013  11:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2013  11:22 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?
much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

Yes, Gordon was an expiring contract as well. Difference is, they viewed him as a future superstar. Obviously injuries and possibly attitude/fit have prevented that, but NO wanted him badly because they thought he was a player you could build around. While teams liked Gallo, no one saw him as anything near that. Everything else i agree with you. I don't think our issue has been as much about trading away picks, it's wasting assets and not getting anything in return. Lin and Fields are the biggest examples of that. Getting Melo for Gallo, Chandler, and a couple picks is far from the problem. Any assets we had left over are gone without compensation. Melo is the only thing we have to show for it, plus Chandler possible.

tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
11/26/2013  11:30 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

you and the author are not looking at matters from a bigger picture. maybe you are both incapable. these were assets that could have either been parlayed into something better for carmelo anthony or whose services could have been retained for him here. you can't predict injury or health but developing young players is constantly being deferred with the knicks.

as soon as melo was acquired through trade the knicks were forced into win-now mode because of the players traded away. and the players brought in to take their place have not been up to snuff. had he come as a free agent a year later the knicks could have continued to build something to the future instead of being sucked back into irrelevance and suffering turmoil.

Again you are living in a fantasy world when you paint this picture of Melo as the villain that robbed the Knicks youth and assets that could have been spared if only he had more character and was a big picture guy. Why do you keep posting this silliness? The economic climate at the time has been explained to you over and over again. Owners were telling players they were reigning in free agency. The Raptors and Cavs had just lost their franchise players for nothing. Your expectation was for Ujiri to let Melo walk for nothing. For Melo to take 33 million less so that he could play with Gallo, Chandler and the 2014 pick. Not sure how these deals where the only party involved wins is the Knicks keep getting reposted. Its like posting fantasy trades. Nothing is real life about it. None of it was going down the way you think it should have. Too much to lose for too many parties involved for everyone to just stand pat at the time. But post it again a thousand times more. It just makes you look less credible like your post about how Amare's back injury and micro fractured knees being reinjured were psychosomatic and caused by the presence of Melo.

so I ask you, he has his money now and the knicks have no picks, not even protected as some fans are just finding out(look at the threads.. LOL), an old lineup that lacks talent... so is this better? maybe better for carmelo's pockets.. but since you guys seem so concerned that he gets paid, I guess you are happy at the situation we are in.. right?

Having gallo, chandler, moz, and the picks don't seem that bad afterall.. but like kobe, another selfish player, carmelo will always seek the money, but he doesn't have kobe talent, and he will continue to fall short, and people will continue to make excuses..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
11/26/2013  11:31 AM
Papabear wrote:
tkf wrote:The paul pierce comparison is a joke.. as pierce was always a willing defender and passer.. pierce was always around the 4-5 assist mark most years..

Another thing, the writer trying to mitigate the pieces in the trade is another fail.. gallo having a torn ACL has what to do with his talent? ok, carmelo has a bum shoulder..

the team won 57 games, remember they were supposed to be the losers in this trade.... eddy curry was just cap fodder, so why mention him? I think denver got what they wanted in the end..

this article is a pipe dream, carmelo has no desire to be a supporting cast, he wants max money and the glory of being "the man"... good luck with that...


Papabear Says

If Paul Pierce was all that why did he need Garnet and Ray Allen? What would have happen if Melo had them. And also If Melo and Pierce were free agents who do you think would get the most attention and the best offers? Hands down it would be Melo. So stop your Paul Pierce loving. I see he ain't doing so good for the Nets.

carmelo had iverson... where is his ring?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
This SI article sums up the state of Melo and the Knicks well

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