Vmart wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea I can see the David Lee comparisons. Good players but less cornerstones than Melo. We wouldn't want Melo and Lee as our 2 best players so I can see not wanting Love either

Lee is a pale imitation of Love IMO. Love's a more physical player, doesn't shy away from contact the way that Lee does.He's also more clutch in the 4th quarter. Would be great to have him play along side Melo if he's still playing at the same level in 2015.

+1. I disagree about Love being a fit with Melo but everything else you said is spot on IMO. Lee can't hold a torch to Love but they are cut from the same cloth.

I believe they compliment each other because they both can score under the rim or from well beyond the arc. Let's whoever is coaching mix things up.

They seem to have the same sweet spots and are ball dominant. In theory they should work together but in theory, Kobe and Dwight should've done so as well. Defensively, those guys would be awful even though I think Love is not that bad at the 4 spot. Either way, having two stars on the team is not a bad problem to have. We could always trade one, if they don't work out.

Dwight is a first class diva and never really committed himself to making it work in LA. Melo has shown he's willing to share the rock if he's passing to players who are putting pts on the board. Love can do that. Then again I thought that Marbury/Crawford might work. They both play with fire but stay in control for the most part. Who is coaching them could be the deciding factor on whether or not it would work.

Agreed. Woodson is not an elite coach, which is why I find it to be so weird that he ended up with the job when Rick Adelman and Phil Jackson were available. I hope this is addressed, if we actually look to build upon what we have. Personally, I think Rick Carlisle would be perfect for this team and might be available soon if the Mavs suck.

Good choice for Carlisle. He's come a long way as far as how he relates to players,and he's a very good tactician on the fly. Something we haven't had in the playoffs going back many coaches.

Carlisle would be good choice but remember his best coach was Woodson's best coach Kidd. They both have done very little since Kidd.

He made the Pistons Eastern Conference contenders with Ben Wallace and did the same for the Jermaine O'Neal led Pacers. He is and always has been a damn good coach.

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd be down with that only if those guys were are #2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

Really? Who is #1 Lebron and Durant? lol

Put it this way. Look at the annual ESPN player rankings. I know some here will call the rankings hate but there are many in the statistical community who would say they're overly generous to CA and maybe KL.
Using those rankings, we'd have two players in the 11 to 20 bracket and we'd be building around them with league min guys since that's all the money that will be left over. And they ranked Melo 15 after his tenth season. Most likely, he will drop then since it's his thirteenth season.

By building around 11 and 20 we will be in same range as a team. So playoffs with 1st round exit should be the result.
Probably this is all Dolan and MSG can muster. So I guess they have realistic plan.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd be down with that only if those guys were are #2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

Really? Who is #1 Lebron and Durant? lol

Put it this way. Look at the annual ESPN player rankings. I know some here will call the rankings hate but there are many in the statistical community who would say they're overly generous to CA and maybe KL.
Using those rankings, we'd have two players in the 11 to 20 bracket and we'd be building around them with league min guys since that's all the money that will be left over. And they ranked Melo 15 after his tenth season. Most likely, he will drop then since it's his thirteenth season.

The Pistons were built under a similar strategy during the 2000s and had more success during that stretch than we ever did during any stretch post '73. There is no one way to build a contender/championship team and I hope the Knicks utilize whatever means they have at their disposal to do so.

And without picks or any room for other top FA signings after Love and Anthony, we're certainly not going to have five excellent starters like the Pistons did. Even if you want to replicate the Pistons, this is a bad strategy. This strategy will only replicate the past 13 years.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd be down with that only if those guys were are #2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

Really? Who is #1 Lebron and Durant? lol

Put it this way. Look at the annual ESPN player rankings. I know some here will call the rankings hate but there are many in the statistical community who would say they're overly generous to CA and maybe KL.
Using those rankings, we'd have two players in the 11 to 20 bracket and we'd be building around them with league min guys since that's all the money that will be left over. And they ranked Melo 15 after his tenth season. Most likely, he will drop then since it's his thirteenth season.

The Pistons were built under a similar strategy during the 2000s and had more success during that stretch than we ever did during any stretch post '73. There is no one way to build a contender/championship team and I hope the Knicks utilize whatever means they have at their disposal to do so.

No, the Pistons had top 10 if not top 5 players. They just didn't get recognition because their PPG totals were too low. Being a superstar and being labelled a superstar are two separate things.

And without picks or any room for other top FA signings after Love and Anthony, we're certainly not going to have five excellent starters like the Pistons did. Even if you want to replicate the Pistons, this is a bad strategy. This strategy will only replicate the past 13 years.

No they didn't. Tayshaun Prince was never that. Richard Hamilton was never that. Billups and the Wallace duo were impressive but they were never superstars. Though they are not defensive stalwarts, Kevin Love and Carmelo are certainly of that echelon of player. It'll be costly but I'm sure we'd be able to accommodate both, while fielding a solid team.

Well most of the stat systems had Billups and Wallace as top 10 players, and you don't have an argument - just a statement. So there's really nothing to discuss.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd be down with that only if those guys were are #2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

Really? Who is #1 Lebron and Durant? lol

Put it this way. Look at the annual ESPN player rankings. I know some here will call the rankings hate but there are many in the statistical community who would say they're overly generous to CA and maybe KL.
Using those rankings, we'd have two players in the 11 to 20 bracket and we'd be building around them with league min guys since that's all the money that will be left over. And they ranked Melo 15 after his tenth season. Most likely, he will drop then since it's his thirteenth season.

The Pistons were built under a similar strategy during the 2000s and had more success during that stretch than we ever did during any stretch post '73. There is no one way to build a contender/championship team and I hope the Knicks utilize whatever means they have at their disposal to do so.

No, the Pistons had top 10 if not top 5 players. They just didn't get recognition because their PPG totals were too low. Being a superstar and being labelled a superstar are two separate things.

And without picks or any room for other top FA signings after Love and Anthony, we're certainly not going to have five excellent starters like the Pistons did. Even if you want to replicate the Pistons, this is a bad strategy. This strategy will only replicate the past 13 years.

No they didn't. Tayshaun Prince was never that. Richard Hamilton was never that. Billups and the Wallace duo were impressive but they were never superstars. Though they are not defensive stalwarts, Kevin Love and Carmelo are certainly of that echelon of player. It'll be costly but I'm sure we'd be able to accommodate both, while fielding a solid team.

Well most of the stat systems had Billups and Wallace as top 10 players, and you don't have an argument - just a statement. So there's really nothing to discuss.

Referring to some ambiguous analytics from nearly a decade does not constituent an argument. It is why my response was fashioned the way it was.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'd be down with that only if those guys were are #2 and 3, not 1 and 2.

Really? Who is #1 Lebron and Durant? lol

Put it this way. Look at the annual ESPN player rankings. I know some here will call the rankings hate but there are many in the statistical community who would say they're overly generous to CA and maybe KL.
Using those rankings, we'd have two players in the 11 to 20 bracket and we'd be building around them with league min guys since that's all the money that will be left over. And they ranked Melo 15 after his tenth season. Most likely, he will drop then since it's his thirteenth season.

The Pistons were built under a similar strategy during the 2000s and had more success during that stretch than we ever did during any stretch post '73. There is no one way to build a contender/championship team and I hope the Knicks utilize whatever means they have at their disposal to do so.

No, the Pistons had top 10 if not top 5 players. They just didn't get recognition because their PPG totals were too low. Being a superstar and being labelled a superstar are two separate things.

And without picks or any room for other top FA signings after Love and Anthony, we're certainly not going to have five excellent starters like the Pistons did. Even if you want to replicate the Pistons, this is a bad strategy. This strategy will only replicate the past 13 years.

No they didn't. Tayshaun Prince was never that. Richard Hamilton was never that. Billups and the Wallace duo were impressive but they were never superstars. Though they are not defensive stalwarts, Kevin Love and Carmelo are certainly of that echelon of player. It'll be costly but I'm sure we'd be able to accommodate both, while fielding a solid team.

Nard Dog. I admire your optimism but let's say the 2016 cap is $65M (it's currently $58M). Love, after 8 years in the league, will be eligible to get a max salary of 30% of the cap.That's 19.5 M

PG:
SG:
SF: Love $$19.5
PF: Melo $25M
C:

That adds up to 44.5M. We'll never get a high draft pick because we'll always spend to try to make the playoffs.

The league is filled with elite PGs so I'd say you want a pretty decent one.

Neither Love or Melo are known for their defense or shotblocking so you're going to need a center than can block shots, defend and not totally ignored on offense so either he can shoot or attract defenders by being a pick and roll force like Tyson.

Let's assume you can go cheapo on a shooting guard.

You still need to get 3 starters and quality backups with $23 M remaining. I think it's possible if you have a competent front office/ownership.

Dolan and his GMs have a habit of overpaying in every single transaction they make (FA signing, trades, etc).

So I admire your optimisim but....

Where does it say you MUST pay them the max they are eligible to receive to acquire both Melo and Love??
If that was true, Lebron/Wade/Bosh would have never been able to team up together...

Where as if they are willing to take slightly less to form a TEAM that can actually compete and make up their difference through incentives, endorsements, and other OFF the court activities is what we should be focusing on with PLAYER OPTIONS after 3 years of service when we have their bird rights and abilities to give them another deal...

This is where Dolan should be focusing on using his connections/ establishments/ and wealth to give them incentives/business opportunities off the court to entice them, while allowing the TEAM/GM/Coaching decisions to be dealt with by personnel that have shown much success and NOT interfere their decision/contract negotiations

We don't have less tax like Houston and FLorida does but
Utilizing NYC, the advertisements/endorsements, and business opportunities other ways to generate more $$$ to make up for their contracts
If we can provide that, then many players will be willing to come and we will get our choice and combinations of who we think will give us the best fitting team
Along with that, provide a plan and the right personnel to market, convince our targets that we are the correct decision for today, tomorrow, and the future by providing PLAN for the best chances of improvements and winning a ring
That is what we should have learned from missing out on Lebron in 2010 and D12 choosing Houston in the summer....

And if that is what it takes to resign Melo, we are better of trading him for cap space, and draft picks, while convincing the next player to sign with Love, Melo having a change in heart is not out of the question with a return after a trade as well....

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Nard Dog. I admire your optimism but let's say the 2016 cap is $65M (it's currently $58M). Love, after 8 years in the league, will be eligible to get a max salary of 30% of the cap.That's 19.5 M

PG:
SG:
SF: Love $$19.5
PF: Melo $25M
C:

That adds up to 44.5M. We'll never get a high draft pick because we'll always spend to try to make the playoffs.

The league is filled with elite PGs so I'd say you want a pretty decent one.

Neither Love or Melo are known for their defense or shotblocking so you're going to need a center than can block shots, defend and not totally ignored on offense so either he can shoot or attract defenders by being a pick and roll force like Tyson.

Let's assume you can go cheapo on a shooting guard.

You still need to get 3 starters and quality backups with $23 M remaining. I think it's possible if you have a competent front office/ownership.

Dolan and his GMs have a habit of overpaying in every single transaction they make (FA signing, trades, etc).

So I admire your optimisim but....

There is a way man. It's called Bird's rights. The reason for Bird's rights is for teams to compete by keeping the same teammates together. If the Knicks stop bringing in new guys and just hold onto the majority of the guys they have, they won't experience a huge cap hit in the offseason enabling them to have a ton of room to work with even with a larger payroll. But hey, let's just keep making moves and playing musical chairs like so many of these trolls suggest.

RonRon wrote:
Where does it say you MUST pay them the max they are eligible to receive to acquire both Melo and Love??
If that was true, Lebron/Wade/Bosh would have never been able to team up together...

Where as if they are willing to take slightly less to form a TEAM that can actually compete and make up their difference through incentives, endorsements, and other OFF the court activities is what we should be focusing on with PLAYER OPTIONS after 3 years of service when we have their bird rights and abilities to give them another deal...

This is where Dolan should be focusing on using his connections/ establishments/ and wealth to give them incentives/business opportunities off the court to entice them, while allowing the TEAM/GM/Coaching decisions to be dealt with by personnel that have shown much success and NOT interfere their decision/contract negotiations

We don't have less tax like Houston and FLorida does but
Utilizing NYC, the advertisements/endorsements, and business opportunities other ways to generate more $$$ to make up for their contracts
If we can provide that, then many players will be willing to come and we will get our choice and combinations of who we think will give us the best fitting team
Along with that, provide a plan and the right personnel to market, convince our targets that we are the correct decision for today, tomorrow, and the future by providing PLAN for the best chances of improvements and winning a ring
That is what we should have learned from missing out on Lebron in 2010 and D12 choosing Houston in the summer....

And if that is what it takes to resign Melo, we are better of trading him for cap space, and draft picks, while convincing the next player to sign with Love, Melo having a change in heart is not out of the question with a return after a trade as well....

It's possible that Melo and Love will take the max. Possible but highly unlikely.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that both Melo and Love will get the max.

NardDogNation wrote:We're having two different arguments. I'm only suggesting that it is possible to build a competitive roster through committee and smart cap management. I never said it was likely given our situation, with all the other factors involved in the process (e.g. Dolan).

Let's call them conversations, not arguments. I agree it is quite possible to build a competitive roster through committee and smart cap management. If you're saying that Dolan prevents that from happening, I strongly agree with you on that one as well.

JohnStarksFan wrote:
There is a way man. It's called Bird's rights. The reason for Bird's rights is for teams to compete by keeping the same teammates together. If the Knicks stop bringing in new guys and just hold onto the majority of the guys they have, they won't experience a huge cap hit in the offseason enabling them to have a ton of room to work with even with a larger payroll. But hey, let's just keep making moves and playing musical chairs like so many of these trolls suggest.

I like that you're bringing in some specific provisions of the CBA. Let's get more specific though.

Other than Melo and Shump, is there anyone else on the roster you'd use Bird rights to keep?

The subject of this entire thread is actually depressing. We all know the Knicks don't have any type of consistent philosophy on offense, defense, drafting, coaching or team building. There is no plan.

There are a few things our beloved team consistently does:

1) Overpay for players in trades and FA signings, often for players who are good but have clearly PEAKED. we pay for what you've alrady done, not what you'll do.

2) Make horrible horrible mistakes in the draft.

3) Trade away draft picks and young players.

The Hawks get Paul Millsap for 9.5M per.
The Knicks trade draft picks to pay Bargnani at 11-13M per.

The Blazers got a capable backup PG and a shooter in Mo Williams and Dorell Wright for $5.2M combined.
The Knicks pay JR Smith $6M and guarantee a contract for Chris Smith. $491,000 + 1.6M ibn luxury tax for a team that couldn't keep Jeremy Lin (with BIRD RIGHTS btw) because of the luxury tax.

Overpaying. It's the Knicks way!

If you're going to build around stars, you need to be savvy. You need some bargain FA signings, some draft picks that you develop into contributors while thy're still getting paid peanuts.