knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Bargnani is not the most important problem with the Knicks!!! This tripe that people keep pointing to is just the most recent scapegoating on this forum. All those Turnovers and poor execution aren't because of Bargnani and this crap needs to stop. 3 games in and before we even played the 3rd game people were already pointing at the new guy. This team has way too many returning players from last year to blame one guy for the teams troubles. It's never that simple. His role out there is very basic so it's the execution with the other players like Felton and Melo that are more important. AB is just there as an outlet to catch defenders who aren't paying any attention to him. He doesn't take enough shots to be the main culprit nor play huge minutes so far.

Now look at these numbers from our top scorers and tell me where the problem is so far:

PLAYER	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	AFG%
Carmelo 7.7	20.3	.377	1.3	5.0	.267	4.3	5.3	0.81	6.4	15.3	.413	1.033	0.41
Felton, 5.0	12.7	.395	0.3	2.3	.143	2.7	3.0	0.89	4.7	10.4	.452	1.026	0.41
Iman    4.0	9.0	.444	1.3	3.7	.364	2.3	2.3	1.00	2.7	5.3	.500	1.296	0.52
Metta   4.0	9.3	.429	1.3	3.0	.444	0.3	0.7	0.50	2.7	6.3	.421	1.036	0.50
Andrea  4.3	8.7	.500	1.0	3.0	.333	0.0	0.0	0.00	3.3	5.7	.588	1.115	0.56
Tyson   3.7	6.3	.579	0.0	0.0	.000	1.7	2.0	0.83	3.7	6.3	.579	1.421	0.58

No one else on the team is -31.

You really are clueless, Bargnani is a liability on the floor, but I've already stated he isnt to be blamed for all of it, but he is a major chunk.

Take him out of the starting lineup and I guarantee you the team will play better, ironically the only game we've won is the one he DIDNT START.

You mention turnovers and Bargnani is averaging 3 in a mere 20 minutes, and he isnt making plays...all he does is shoot.

4 made buckets on average against 3 turnovers and zero assists...his per 36 numbers are even worse, please dont increase his minutes.

Bargnani's job is to help the team win...he isnt doing that.

The plus/minus is misleading. The fact that the team has played poorly to start games isn't just about AB. AB is only avg'ing 20 mpg so that leaves a TON of time that the team has sucked even without him on the floor. AB has clearly started off out of sync, but he's been showing improvement in his limited minutes. The point I was making is that his main job is to score the ball as is Melo and Felton and yet AB's been producing more efficiently than either of them despite not even being close to being comfortable yet. What is Melo and Felton's excuse? Look at their shooting production.

With AB I can understand him being a bit turnover prone early, but what is the excuse as a team overall? I'm not trying to say that AB is ballin right now when clearly he's not, but the losing isn't about him. Felton and Melo handle the ball WAY more than AB and take WAY more shots yet we want to blame AB for the failures. SMH.

Inept to such an extreme degree and devoid of any energy to care either side of the fences,

Bargs could be the worst trade in recent league memory if he doesn't shape up asap

IronWillGiroud wrote:-31 can't be misleading, he's a threat to society out there,

Inept to such an extreme degree and devoid of any energy to care either side of the fences,

Bargs could be the worst trade in recent league memory if he doesn't shape up asap

He's not the sole reason that you saw a -31. That is largely proportionate to what Felton and Melo have done in the SL along with him. I doubt that he'll be a source of conversation once the team is winning games. If they had pulled out the Bulls game no one would be talking about him in a negative light. Can't blame that loss on Bargs!!! In the wolves game he shot well and again wasn't the reason the team lost.

STARTERS 	       MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A
Andrea Bargnani, PF	19	6-10	2-4
Carmelo Anthony, SF	44	8-21	2-6
Raymond Felton,  PG	38	3-12	0-3	

You can talk about plus/minus and all that but look at the long minutes Both Felton and Melo have logged verses Bargnani and who is taking and missing the bulk of the shots.

knicks1248 wrote:What's with the defense? The Knicks are still at a loss for how to play "big." Best in the league at defending post-ups in 2012-13, they rank last in that category so far, allowing 62.5% shooting and 1.13 points per play.

Much of Knicks fans' ire on that end has been directed at Bargnani. But the team continued to struggle when Kenyon Martin and Tyson Chandler were on the floor together, too—a showing that bolstered the idea that the Knicks should be using Metta World Peace more at power forward. He's shorter than Bargnani, but World Peace seemed up to the task while he was assigned to guard Minnesota's Kevin Love on Sunday, holding him to 3-of-7 shooting in 16 minutes—a span in which the Knicks outscored the Timberwolves by 10 points.

In Love's other 24 minutes, with World Peace benched, Minnesota outscored the Knicks by 34.

Thats why dolan storm upstairs to steve, can woodson not see this..wow

I watched that game and Love didn't really score on Bargnani. I saw 3 possessions where AB successfully defended Love and caused him problems with his length. If you go back and watch that game you'll see that Love wasn't going off on Bargnani when they were matched up.

nixluva wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:-31 can't be misleading, he's a threat to society out there,

Inept to such an extreme degree and devoid of any energy to care either side of the fences,

Bargs could be the worst trade in recent league memory if he doesn't shape up asap

He's not the sole reason that you saw a -31. That is largely proportionate to what Felton and Melo have done in the SL along with him. I doubt that he'll be a source of conversation once the team is winning games. If they had pulled out the Bulls game no one would be talking about him in a negative light. Can't blame that loss on Bargs!!! In the wolves game he shot well and again wasn't the reason the team lost.

STARTERS 	       MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A
Andrea Bargnani, PF	19	6-10	2-4
Carmelo Anthony, SF	44	8-21	2-6
Raymond Felton,  PG	38	3-12	0-3	

You can talk about plus/minus and all that but look at the long minutes Both Felton and Melo have logged verses Bargnani and who is taking and missing the bulk of the shots.

Bargnani is why he is -31.

Bargnani got booed in a win, thats all you need to know....because everyone and their momma knows he was hurting the team...thus -11.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

djsunyc wrote:i saw the first game with a bunch of degenerates from this board...but haven't seen the last two.

here's the most important thing to take away from bargnani...no matter how he plays,

-11
-9
-11

when he's on the court the past 3 games. this has been the case for all those losing seasons in toronto and now again in new york. there are some statistical anomalies and sometimes, just some bad luck...but it seems in this case, bargs IS the bad luck.

and as predicted... the "bargnani as the scapegoat and whipping boy for what ails the knicks" commences.

meanwhile:

"i want to see what it is like to be a free agent"-- carmelo anthony
"i expect the knicks to win a title this year"-- james dolan

Interesting. Is Bargs being scapegoated by fans? Links?

"links" LOL

i hesitate to ask... but are you blind?

Scapegoating for the teams failures? Haven't seen any of that. Concern about the guys play absolutely but tomorrow is the fourth game of the season. Not ready to have a funeral for Bargs or this team yet. However if you know where there are threads/articles saying the failures of the knicks in the first three games are all related to bargs I would love to read them.

this roster is a flat out mess. woodson is going to drown this season and i am merely echoing what has been mentioned in some quarters.

in everyone's avoidance to hold melo's feet to the fire... and make sure it is never his fault... so that it is felt he has "earned" his max contract:

blame of bargnani comes first since he is the latecomer... in other words he's an easy target as the latest high-priced solution to the fiasco that is the melo era.

felton comes second.

stoudemire is in there lingering somewhere.

shumpert will be blamed eventually, as will chandler.

melo? he is the innocent victim here as you are sure is true.

you should try realgm and hook up with moocow and godshamgod. they are your huckleberries.

have i mentioned yet this season that it is never melo's fault?

tkf wrote:

RonRon wrote:We gave up too much in the deal for Melo

We took on way too much salary, cap space/flexability, solid role players, draft picks, and that is why we are unable to build around Melo with the quality players needed

Look at what Harden and CP3 were acquired for, they didn't take on 40-60m in salaries and poor contracts that hinders their ability to still build a team around them with cap space alone
Instead we gave up the cap space, multiple draft picks, and players that had much higher value than what they were traded for

We overpayed for a want and not a need, that is why we have had to continue to overpay in trades for flawed players and vet min like contractsh

To pair with Melo, we need many quality players

1- SF/PF

We need a SF/PF with guard skills, ability to score inside and out, good speed and athletisicm rebound, and the ability to defend 2-3 positions
A young Shawn Marion would be ideal, had we kept Wilson Chandler or Gallo, we would still have a chance to build a team with the right players to implement a philosophy that would work
Others like Battum, Parsons
Yes, Lebron and Durant would be even better

2- PG

A PG that can demand the trust and respect of Melo that can be a lockdown defender, play on and off the ball, hit a wide open 3pter, and penetrate and facilitate at a high efficient rate
Someone like CP3, at least a Jrue Holiday, or Westbrook without his injury and ego issue

3- 2 PF/C

2 PF/C, one that can play great team DEF with supreme mobility, athleticism, length, can score 1v1 down low and hit a 17 footer effectively
Noah without the injuries would be ideal

Another stretch PF/C that can also defend and rebound at a efficient rate...
Kevin Love, Aldridge

However all these type of players are rare skill sets that cost more than the average player salary
With JR, Iman, and Hardaway JR, we have 3 players that play the same position
We likely would need to trade one of these players for a SF/PF or a upgrade at PG

On top of all this we still have to wait till 2015 to retool, without overpaying for talent, especially for Melo
But getting some of the pieces now would allow us to fill in the holes in order to build a team, with the players needed to build a philosophy that would actually work vs playoff caliber teams
As of right now, we are a 3pt shooting team with many holes as a team

you nailed this spot on!!!!!

people often miss the point, they keep saying we didn't give up stars in gallo and chandler, but we didn't get one back and on top of that, we still haven't replaced the calibre of talent those guys were, and honestly they were somewhat unique talents..

guys like gallo, chandler, Parsons, marion are rare skilled talents with size and those guys cost more than the average salary, what we have found is that they are harder to replace than most expected...

Yes, Melo would be much better when he could concentrate on mainly scoring and rebounding, with team mates that can be lock down defenders and be willing to do all the dirty work, draw double teams, all penetrate/facilitate at high levels, and hit wide open 3pt shots

However, other than TEAM USA, I ask you how can we get such a team to build around Melo??
We have a salary cap and Melo wants a max contract that he is NOT worth nearly as much as he is worth....

nixluva wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:-31 can't be misleading, he's a threat to society out there,

Inept to such an extreme degree and devoid of any energy to care either side of the fences,

Bargs could be the worst trade in recent league memory if he doesn't shape up asap

He's not the sole reason that you saw a -31. That is largely proportionate to what Felton and Melo have done in the SL along with him. I doubt that he'll be a source of conversation once the team is winning games. If they had pulled out the Bulls game no one would be talking about him in a negative light. Can't blame that loss on Bargs!!! In the wolves game he shot well and again wasn't the reason the team lost.

STARTERS 	       MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A
Andrea Bargnani, PF	19	6-10	2-4
Carmelo Anthony, SF	44	8-21	2-6
Raymond Felton,  PG	38	3-12	0-3	

You can talk about plus/minus and all that but look at the long minutes Both Felton and Melo have logged verses Bargnani and who is taking and missing the bulk of the shots.

I agree. In 2040 when Dolan no longer runs the team and the team is actually winning games, no one will even remember Bargnani.

we seriously wont win another game til dude is benched.