Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

Some one has to shoot the ball..So who in your opinion shoould have been shooting instead of Melo??

how about open players who happen to shoot a better percentage than carmelo...

You mean like when Landry Feilds had the wide open jumper from the corner, game 2 against the Celts and air balled a potential game winner?

What? Are you trying to say that Carmelo has never shot an airball?
What's a higher percentage shot, uptown? A contested shot by Melo or an open layup by our 12th man?

Not the point I was trying to make. Point is, other than the season Melo played with a healthy Billups (09?) he has never played along side a proven winner/ and elite player, hence the low fg % and playoff records. Take a look at Durants shooting #'s last years playoffs without Westbrook as well as the early exit. Cant win in the playoffs when your next best player is a 6th man.....

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

Some one has to shoot the ball..So who in your opinion shoould have been shooting instead of Melo??

how about open players who happen to shoot a better percentage than carmelo...

You mean like when Landry Feilds had the wide open jumper from the corner, game 2 against the Celts and air balled a potential game winner?

What? Are you trying to say that Carmelo has never shot an airball?
What's a higher percentage shot, uptown? A contested shot by Melo or an open layup by our 12th man?

Not the point I was trying to make. Point is, other than the season Melo played with a healthy Billups (09?) he has never played along side a proven winner/ and elite player, hence the low fg % and playoff records. Take a look at Durants shooting #'s last years playoffs without Westbrook as well as the early exit. Cant win in the playoffs when your next best player is a 6th man.....

His shooting #s then were still above Melo's average. And if Melo could average 7 assists a game, I'm sure people would be gentler about the shooting. KD's 9 rebs and 1+ blocks and stls helped too. Melo's gotta do something consistently besides inefficient volume shooting in the post-season.

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:when your shot is not hitting, you can choose to exert your energy on DEF, facilitating, REBOUNDS, setting picks, fighting for position, etc

but

for Melo, he would rather shoot his way out of it and try to be the hero in any given scenario, that is what he loves
Yes, he had injuries that may have bothered his abilities but he chose to continue to force shots, even if it was well defended and on a tough defenders
Is that on Woodson or Melo?

For these reasons that is why DK and some posters don't buy in to him and believe in his abilities to be our #1 option but get called as HATERS

Some one has to shoot the ball..So who in your opinion shoould have been shooting instead of Melo??

how about open players who happen to shoot a better percentage than carmelo...

You mean like when Landry Feilds had the wide open jumper from the corner, game 2 against the Celts and air balled a potential game winner?

What? Are you trying to say that Carmelo has never shot an airball?
What's a higher percentage shot, uptown? A contested shot by Melo or an open layup by our 12th man?

Not the point I was trying to make. Point is, other than the season Melo played with a healthy Billups (09?) he has never played along side a proven winner/ and elite player, hence the low fg % and playoff records. Take a look at Durants shooting #'s last years playoffs without Westbrook as well as the early exit. Cant win in the playoffs when your next best player is a 6th man.....

His shooting #s then were still above Melo's average. And if Melo could average 7 assists a game, I'm sure people would be gentler about the shooting. KD's 9 rebs and 1+ blocks and stls helped too. Melo's gotta do something consistently besides inefficient volume shooting in the post-season.

Durant shot in the 40s (% wise) vs the Griz in the 2nd round of the playoffs. The assist #'s are cosmetic because his team still got bumped despite having homecourt advantage. You do not advance in the playoffs with one legit star player. As much as everyone wants to crown Durant, his team got bumped just as Melo's team did, when both teams second best players came off the bench (Kevin Martin for okc and JR for the knicks). Melo has never played with anyone remotely close to the talents of Westbrook since he's been in NY.....Would love to see how Melo's teams might do if he had a legit running mate similar to the one he had in Denver with a Healthy Billups.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:ESPN is garbage and hates NY sports, thats been well documented here and on the Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets and Ranger sites as well. But sure... let that hold more water in your mind than MVP votes. Im sorry your not impressed with a scoring title, all star, the best season for the Knicks since Ewing and 3rd in MVP voting (as opposed say 13th, because while you might not be a math major Im willing to help you here 3 is much better than 13).

Your really good at the magical mix of players thats better than Melo, but you offer no other options that are even remotely better.

Would you split the $10mm between Gallo and Brandon Jennings? Who are these magical guys who are going put up the 50win seasons. Name them.

The whole argument is just "the grass is always greener." There is no alternate plan that makes us a better team, just a theory that flexibility, but nothing tangible, is a better option.

well I think it more than a theory... flexibility is always better, and there is more than enough evidence to show that you don't need carmelo to be a playoff team.... so wouldn't it be better to be just as good as we are now with flexibility?

Yes except for the fact that without him we would not have won a playoff series, won 54 games, or won the division. A broke down amare, gallo and Felton was not getting us there, and if you really believe that then I don't know what else to say.

you don't know that... Denver won 57 games after carmelo left... if you guys truly think we are a bad team without carmelo then this team needs to be blown up because you are never going to win without a good TEAM!!!

I don't care about 57 games and one playoff series..

give me 45 wins, youth, flexibility and a higher ceiling!!!

Fine you can have your 45 win team that will always have you excited for next season. I'll take a 54 win team that wins playoff series and has a better chance to compete for a title. Flexibility and youth doesn't get you wins, it just makes you giddy for all the possibilities of the future that may never happen.

Compete for a title? Now you're stand up comedian?

All I said is better chance, as in better than a team led by gallo with flexibility as the 6th man.

Well you can get almost another max contract player just for the salary difference between Melo and Gallo.

And, even among those who wanted to keep Gallo, people weren't talking about him being the leader of the team. I kept talking about trading for and building around Harden, for example.

exactly!!

Papabear Says

Listen!! Maybe you will learn something. Just because Hardin is doing well in Houston don't mean a thing. This is New York and a tough market. How many players in the past did we bring here and they folded with the pressure because of people like you and the press and the bright lights and party time. New York is a difficult market. We also have an owner who runs a yes man type of company. Look he wants to trade Shump because he got made at him.one of our best players so far. We kept Jr's brother who can't play. The team looks like they have no game plan. We are still fading in the third and fourth quarter and Woody can't change that. I wonder what they do at practice. The way Melo is playing now and if he don't change he won't get his 20 million and the fans and press will chase him out of New York and no one will be willing to pay him big money. The team looks like they never went to training camp.

23 year old, highly versatile star on only $14 mil a season? I'd take those odds. We've only won 1 playoff series in 3 years (7 of 21 playoff games) in this Melo era anyway. There's no reason to gamble on a 10 year vet who only does one thing well.

Yes Harden would have been a great option. Problem is there were many other teams competing for his services. Odds of us having a package to entice okc above all others are slim to none. Only reason we got Melo was because of the situation he put Denver in. They preferred Brooklyn's package of players, that was clear.

We had plenty. Fields had won Rookie of the Month where he averaged 12 and 7 as an SG. He was being this productive on the small salary of a 2nd round pick. Gallo was a lottery pick already playing at a high level. And we had several picks to offer. Felton was averaging 17 and 9. Instead OKC only got 1 functional player (Kevin Martin) who stayed for 1 season, and some picks.

As Knicks fans we have always had a tendency to overrate the value of our players/assets. I am at fault as much as anyone. I don't think our package was good enough for any star player other than Melo and that was only because he forced their hand.

Most people didn't realize Harden was a star at the time. I wish I had bookmarked the thread from a year ago where you can see all the outrage expressed over the fact that he was offered $14 mil a season. We certainly could have beaten an offer of Kevin Martin and some picks.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:ESPN is garbage and hates NY sports, thats been well documented here and on the Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets and Ranger sites as well. But sure... let that hold more water in your mind than MVP votes. Im sorry your not impressed with a scoring title, all star, the best season for the Knicks since Ewing and 3rd in MVP voting (as opposed say 13th, because while you might not be a math major Im willing to help you here 3 is much better than 13).

Your really good at the magical mix of players thats better than Melo, but you offer no other options that are even remotely better.

Would you split the $10mm between Gallo and Brandon Jennings? Who are these magical guys who are going put up the 50win seasons. Name them.

The whole argument is just "the grass is always greener." There is no alternate plan that makes us a better team, just a theory that flexibility, but nothing tangible, is a better option.

well I think it more than a theory... flexibility is always better, and there is more than enough evidence to show that you don't need carmelo to be a playoff team.... so wouldn't it be better to be just as good as we are now with flexibility?

Yes except for the fact that without him we would not have won a playoff series, won 54 games, or won the division. A broke down amare, gallo and Felton was not getting us there, and if you really believe that then I don't know what else to say.

you don't know that... Denver won 57 games after carmelo left... if you guys truly think we are a bad team without carmelo then this team needs to be blown up because you are never going to win without a good TEAM!!!

I don't care about 57 games and one playoff series..

give me 45 wins, youth, flexibility and a higher ceiling!!!

Fine you can have your 45 win team that will always have you excited for next season. I'll take a 54 win team that wins playoff series and has a better chance to compete for a title. Flexibility and youth doesn't get you wins, it just makes you giddy for all the possibilities of the future that may never happen.

Compete for a title? Now you're stand up comedian?

All I said is better chance, as in better than a team led by gallo with flexibility as the 6th man.

Well you can get almost another max contract player just for the salary difference between Melo and Gallo.

And, even among those who wanted to keep Gallo, people weren't talking about him being the leader of the team. I kept talking about trading for and building around Harden, for example.

exactly!!

Papabear Says

Listen!! Maybe you will learn something. Just because Hardin is doing well in Houston don't mean a thing. This is New York and a tough market. How many players in the past did we bring here and they folded with the pressure because of people like you and the press and the bright lights and party time. New York is a difficult market. We also have an owner who runs a yes man type of company. Look he wants to trade Shump because he got made at him.one of our best players so far. We kept Jr's brother who can't play. The team looks like they have no game plan. We are still fading in the third and fourth quarter and Woody can't change that. I wonder what they do at practice. The way Melo is playing now and if he don't change he won't get his 20 million and the fans and press will chase him out of New York and no one will be willing to pay him big money. The team looks like they never went to training camp.

23 year old, highly versatile star on only $14 mil a season? I'd take those odds. We've only won 1 playoff series in 3 years (7 of 21 playoff games) in this Melo era anyway. There's no reason to gamble on a 10 year vet who only does one thing well.

Yes Harden would have been a great option. Problem is there were many other teams competing for his services. Odds of us having a package to entice okc above all others are slim to none. Only reason we got Melo was because of the situation he put Denver in. They preferred Brooklyn's package of players, that was clear.

We had plenty. Fields had won Rookie of the Month where he averaged 12 and 7 as an SG. He was being this productive on the small salary of a 2nd round pick. Gallo was a lottery pick already playing at a high level. And we had several picks to offer. Felton was averaging 17 and 9. Instead OKC only got 1 functional player (Kevin Martin) who stayed for 1 season, and some picks.

As Knicks fans we have always had a tendency to overrate the value of our players/assets. I am at fault as much as anyone. I don't think our package was good enough for any star player other than Melo and that was only because he forced their hand.

Most people didn't realize Harden was a star at the time. I wish I had bookmarked the thread from a year ago where you can see all the outrage expressed over the fact that he was offered $14 mil a season. We certainly could have beaten an offer of Kevin Martin and some picks.

I disagree. Okc got a lottery pick as well as lamb who will be on a rookie contract for awhile. Gallo and chandler were due paydays, something that okc wants nothing to do with. Houston offered the better draft picks than we could have and talent that would be on rookie contracts for longer. Consider what okc is looking for and our package couldn't ever compete. They wanted high draft picks and talent on rookie contracts and we could offer neither.

Well Fields was playing like a mid lottery pick on a 2nd round player's salary.
Realistically, you're probably right. We probably would have to have made better decisions in the year before too in order to get Harden but it certainly was doable.