yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:Firstly, I do want to commend you for being able to temper your expectations, it makes it easier to respond.

nixluva wrote:The important point is that AB is NOT a bad defender when it comes to guarding his man. There's statistical proof suggests that he's a very good man defender at the PF spot. What he doesn't do well is help defense, which is what Tyson and KMart are here for. If you start Bargnani with Tyson and Melo you can still let Melo get to post up cuz it won't really effect AB who can score form anywhere on the floor.

I dont think this should be Woody's approach, the guy that should be free to roam the floor if anyone should be Melo.

Bargnani doesnt hit the three ball as well as melo, even though I'm not a fan of him taking 6 a game either, but he hits them at a high rate.

Bargnani needs to have a defined role, and that role is low post, make the defense pay to free up the wing.

nixluva wrote:The question of rebounds is a legit concern, however, let's also put that into perspective. Spurs were #20, Knicks were #26 and Heat were #30 in rebounds. Being a top rebounding team doesn't guarantee you will win. It's one aspect of the game. Of course you don't want to be bad at rebounding but you don't win the title on that aspect alone. The point of bringing in AB is to get him back to scoring the ball and making the team harder to defend. This team can't go further in the playoffs without more scoring variety.

Being a poor rebounding team makes it harder to win, and the Spurs and Heat arent bad at all....they dont miss shots...thus less OFFENSIVE rebounds to get......

But in the regular season the Spurs were 4th in DEFENSIVE rebounds...the Knicks were 25....a major difference, and that 4th was fractions away from #1, and a hair above the Pacers.

Miami was middle of the pack on defensive boards, and thats expected with no center, but ironically ranked higher than Memphis.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgDefensiveRebounds

You dont find it odd that the worst shooting teams are the best rebounding ones by stats? Indy and Chi cant shoot to save their life.

But Miami and Spurs get the boards the need to because they have good rebounders on their teams.

The Spurs were tied with Indy for top 5 in defensive rebounding, so yes, once again, they get the boards they should.

Our defensive rebounding was awful in the regular and post season....that has to change.

nixluva wrote:Of course we'd love it if Bargnani was a 20/10 guy but then we'd have zero chance of getting him if he was. We're not getting optimal position players here. The Knicks have to figure out ways to win despite the flawed nature of their players. Last year they were pretty successful despite being a poor rebounding team. The same was true for the Spurs and Heat. Teams today have flaws. Fans here just don't like the flaws the Knicks have because traditionally rebounding is a core belief of what it takes to win. It's a tough sell. To make it work the Knicks have to be superior in other aspects of the game to make up for the weak rebounding. That's what the Spurs do and the Heat, who just happen to have played in the NBA Finals. To get to the Finals they had to beat the #1 and the #12 rebounding teams in the NBA, Indy and Memphis.

Yes, rebounding is a core element as I explained above, but elite defense is a paramount along with efficient scoring....something Miami and Spurs are very good at.

More defense if the offense is poor....see Bulls and Pacers.

I know folks look at the Mavs to show yes, an offensive minded team can do it...

But the year they won....

Top 10 in defensive rebounding....-1.7 margin total.....and also 6th best in opponents PPS....they did more than score.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/scoringEfficiencyOpponent/year/2011/seasontype/3

To get a true view of where we were....

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game/sort/scoringEfficiencyOpponent/seasontype/3

Although, they ranked 25th in defensive rebounds per game they had the 4th best defensive rebounding percentage at .747. SO the kNicks were not a bad defensive rebounding team.

Yeah the team was much worse at offensive rebounding

Is that what the discussion was about? I thought it was about defensive rebouning. Yes, they were a bad offensive rebounding team (19th OREB%) which can be attributed to the players but it can also be attributed to team scheme.

It was about Bargs' bad rebounding in general, until you (strategically?) redirected it towards just defensive rebounding.

It was brought up when city posted about the spurs being a good defensive rebounding team despite their low ranking overall and that the knicks where not a good defensive rebounding team so Nix should not use the spurs or the Heat, two bad rebounding teams, to justify his argument.

So no I did not strategically redirect the argument but good try or just an easy oversight due to the many quotes.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:Firstly, I do want to commend you for being able to temper your expectations, it makes it easier to respond.

nixluva wrote:The important point is that AB is NOT a bad defender when it comes to guarding his man. There's statistical proof suggests that he's a very good man defender at the PF spot. What he doesn't do well is help defense, which is what Tyson and KMart are here for. If you start Bargnani with Tyson and Melo you can still let Melo get to post up cuz it won't really effect AB who can score form anywhere on the floor.

I dont think this should be Woody's approach, the guy that should be free to roam the floor if anyone should be Melo.

Bargnani doesnt hit the three ball as well as melo, even though I'm not a fan of him taking 6 a game either, but he hits them at a high rate.

Bargnani needs to have a defined role, and that role is low post, make the defense pay to free up the wing.

nixluva wrote:The question of rebounds is a legit concern, however, let's also put that into perspective. Spurs were #20, Knicks were #26 and Heat were #30 in rebounds. Being a top rebounding team doesn't guarantee you will win. It's one aspect of the game. Of course you don't want to be bad at rebounding but you don't win the title on that aspect alone. The point of bringing in AB is to get him back to scoring the ball and making the team harder to defend. This team can't go further in the playoffs without more scoring variety.

Being a poor rebounding team makes it harder to win, and the Spurs and Heat arent bad at all....they dont miss shots...thus less OFFENSIVE rebounds to get......

But in the regular season the Spurs were 4th in DEFENSIVE rebounds...the Knicks were 25....a major difference, and that 4th was fractions away from #1, and a hair above the Pacers.

Miami was middle of the pack on defensive boards, and thats expected with no center, but ironically ranked higher than Memphis.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgDefensiveRebounds

You dont find it odd that the worst shooting teams are the best rebounding ones by stats? Indy and Chi cant shoot to save their life.

But Miami and Spurs get the boards the need to because they have good rebounders on their teams.

The Spurs were tied with Indy for top 5 in defensive rebounding, so yes, once again, they get the boards they should.

Our defensive rebounding was awful in the regular and post season....that has to change.

nixluva wrote:Of course we'd love it if Bargnani was a 20/10 guy but then we'd have zero chance of getting him if he was. We're not getting optimal position players here. The Knicks have to figure out ways to win despite the flawed nature of their players. Last year they were pretty successful despite being a poor rebounding team. The same was true for the Spurs and Heat. Teams today have flaws. Fans here just don't like the flaws the Knicks have because traditionally rebounding is a core belief of what it takes to win. It's a tough sell. To make it work the Knicks have to be superior in other aspects of the game to make up for the weak rebounding. That's what the Spurs do and the Heat, who just happen to have played in the NBA Finals. To get to the Finals they had to beat the #1 and the #12 rebounding teams in the NBA, Indy and Memphis.

Yes, rebounding is a core element as I explained above, but elite defense is a paramount along with efficient scoring....something Miami and Spurs are very good at.

More defense if the offense is poor....see Bulls and Pacers.

I know folks look at the Mavs to show yes, an offensive minded team can do it...

But the year they won....

Top 10 in defensive rebounding....-1.7 margin total.....and also 6th best in opponents PPS....they did more than score.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/scoringEfficiencyOpponent/year/2011/seasontype/3

To get a true view of where we were....

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/defense-per-game/sort/scoringEfficiencyOpponent/seasontype/3

Although, they ranked 25th in defensive rebounds per game they had the 4th best defensive rebounding percentage at .747. SO the kNicks were not a bad defensive rebounding team.

Yeah the team was much worse at offensive rebounding

Is that what the discussion was about? I thought it was about defensive rebouning. Yes, they were a bad offensive rebounding team (19th OREB%) which can be attributed to the players but it can also be attributed to team scheme.

It was about Bargs' bad rebounding in general, until you (strategically?) redirected it towards just defensive rebounding.

It was brought up when city posted about the spurs being a good defensive rebounding team despite their low ranking overall and that the knicks where not a good defensive rebounding team so Nix should not use the spurs or the Heat, two bad rebounding teams, to justify his argument.

So no I did not strategically redirect the argument but good try or just an easy oversight due to the many quotes.

City was discussing both offensive and defensive rebounding. You're the one who pushed it to entirely defensive rebounding.

Yup. I was in disagreement with the poster i quoted.

nixluva wrote:There are some players who are preternaturally gifted at tracking the ball and grabbing the rebound. Then there are guys who just work hard and fight off their man to grab the rebounds that fall in their direction. One thing to note about Bargnani is that he doesn't get any Offensive rebounds due to how he's used away from the basket so much. If a coach uses him in the post more often perhaps that would help him rebounding on the offensive boards more. IMO he's not going to be a good offensive rebounder as long as he's used mostly on the perimeter. It remains to be seen exactly how Woody is going to use AB.

IMO the best way to use AB is to start him with Melo and Tyson. It's a very good mix in terms of their skills and weaknesses. AB is a capable man defender against PF's. AB has good size for a PF and seems to use that size well defensively. He is not a good help defender and with Tyson in there to cover that role it works. AB also keeps Melo from having to bang against bigger PF's. All the while AB can play offensively with both Tyson and Melo cuz he can score comfortably from anywhere on the floor.

But that only one side of the ball...he doesnt guard wings, so why is his defensive boards so low?

The key for him toe rebound is to care about it, something he's admitted to not doing on several occassions to the point of being quoted as "i play basketball, not rebound ball", and self admitted "lazy".

But i doubt Woody does any of this....Melo is likely to be the 4, at this point it's HIS best position, and Woody isnt likely to put his star player at a disadvantage just to cater to Bargnani.

If Bargs plays the 4, is Melo back to getting tore to shreds guarding wing players? Woody might as well turn in his badge.

Keep in mind melo has yet to be hurt GUARDING bigs, his injuries were while he had to ball and fighting for position....all on offense.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:There are some players who are preternaturally gifted at tracking the ball and grabbing the rebound. Then there are guys who just work hard and fight off their man to grab the rebounds that fall in their direction. One thing to note about Bargnani is that he doesn't get any Offensive rebounds due to how he's used away from the basket so much. If a coach uses him in the post more often perhaps that would help him rebounding on the offensive boards more. IMO he's not going to be a good offensive rebounder as long as he's used mostly on the perimeter. It remains to be seen exactly how Woody is going to use AB.

IMO the best way to use AB is to start him with Melo and Tyson. It's a very good mix in terms of their skills and weaknesses. AB is a capable man defender against PF's. AB has good size for a PF and seems to use that size well defensively. He is not a good help defender and with Tyson in there to cover that role it works. AB also keeps Melo from having to bang against bigger PF's. All the while AB can play offensively with both Tyson and Melo cuz he can score comfortably from anywhere on the floor.

Offensive rebounds are more likely to carum farther out with a jump shooting team....long jumpers, long rebounds.

But that only one side of the ball...he doesnt guard wings, so why is his defensive boards so low?

The key for him toe rebound is to care about it, something he's admitted to not doing on several occassions to the point of being quoted as "i play basketball, not rebound ball", and self admitted "lazy".

But i doubt Woody does any of this....Melo is likely to be the 4, at this point it's HIS best position, and Woody isnt likely to put his star player at a disadvantage just to cater to Bargnani.

If Bargs plays the 4, is Melo back to getting tore to shreds guarding wing players? Woody might as well turn in his badge.

Keep in mind melo has yet to be hurt GUARDING bigs, his injuries were while he had to ball and fighting for position....all on offense.

Melo playing the 4 is really not as big of an issue as you're making it out to be. Melo will still get some minutes where he can play the 4. Dude played the 3 most of his career. The point is to find a way of playing that leads to WINS and not just what makes Melo get off more. We need more variety of scoring and not more Melo. We're gonna have a more potent roster with Beno in place of Kidd, a full strength Shump and THJ instead of White. Now with AB in the lineup at PF you are actually moving production from Melo to our SF spot which was lacking last year.

POS	          STARTER	     2ND	           3RD	
Point Guard	Raymond Felton	     Pablo Prigioni	   Beno Udrih		
Shooting Guard	Iman Shumpert	     J.R. Smith	           Tim Hardaway Jr.		
Small Forward	Carmelo Anthony	     Metta World Peace	   C.J. Leslie		
Power Forward	Andrea Bargnani	     Amar'e Stoudemire	   Kenyon Martin		
Center	        Tyson Chandler	     Jeremy Tyler

Looking at the depth chart it's clear that Woody is going to have to change what he looked to do last year with the small ball look. The roster has too much traditional depth now to play that way. He'll still be able to do it but not as much. It's really going to be interesting to see how Woody plays it.

Melo will be the starting PF, Woody has seen how well it works, he wont revert just to cater to Bargnani.

The team wont win more than they did last season...they hope should be to have an easier 50-55 win regular season instead of the "pedal to the floor, everybody broke down trying to get more wins season.

What the team needs is a playbook on offense and players playing where they are most efficient....and thats merely on offense.

But without consistent defense and rebounding, the offense wont matter.....the playoffs should be the goal, and the teams who defend rebound and score in that order are the ones whom usually are triumphant.

I honestly dont even feel like having a Bargnani discussion...we'll talk about how nice his warm up suits look on him when he gets the "Novak" treatment.....I'm sorry dude is garbage.....just talented in one aspect type of garbage.

This is how I see it 10 man rotation

C-Tyson
F Bargs
F Anthony
G Shumpert
G Felton
C/PF Kmart
F Amare
G Hardaway (until JR gets back)
G Udrih
G Prigioni

bench
CJ Leslie (D league)
Murry?
Injured JR Smith Jeremy Tyler

Were likely going to need to fill out 15 and add in a vet because of Smith and Tylers injuries.

Now we can mix and match as the season goes on--but this is honestly how I see it. 2 units and more shared minutes taxing players less to help avoid last years late season problems.