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Knicks Sign Beno Udrih
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LivingLegend
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8/8/2013  1:00 PM
callmened wrote:dj augustine sucks

Yep - Augustine handled the ball like a hot-potato in the playoffs against the Knicks.

It got bad enough that Pacer's just pulled him.

Only thing that kept Knicks in that series was Pacer's turnover issues.

Udrih greater than Augustine....especially off the high-pick & roll Knicks use.

AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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8/8/2013  1:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/8/2013  1:01 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:He's an OK player. His defensive #s are really bad but he helps on offense. I don't expect him to make a big difference but he's worth the league min.

Man you've got to stop thinking of players in a vacuum. It's like you look at the personal numbers and don't pay attention to the actual impact they can have on the team. I think you have a very flawed take on how this move plays into the way the Knicks will function. For one thing tell me how does Prigs look in the stat sheet as a player in a vacuum? Not good at all!!! However, his actual impact on the way the team plays is greater than his stats and Kidd had a similar positive impact earlier in the season.

Think of what these players do in terms of the Hockey assist before the assist. Often its the pass before the pass that leads to the score that is most important. The Knicks have a very specific way they play based on the flaws of the teams top scorers. We have to find other ways to make the team more efficient and part of that is having guards that can make intelligent decisions with the ball and able to knock down the open 3. Our guards also have to be able to run PnR at a high level but not be shot happy.

Now the Knicks have 2 very smart, high BB IQ PG's again, but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. That's something that worked great for the Knicks and they clearly want to repeat that this year, but to have more endurance at the position than we did last year.


The guy who always overestimates the Knicks win totals by at least ten says I have a very flawed outlook! Thanks!

Typical punk response. Doesn't even begin to address my post but that's OK. Guessing Season win totals mean next to nothing. It's a guess and I tend to guess a bit higher than some. Big deal. What does that have to do with a PLAYER EVALUATION??? Stick to the topic.

The reason the Knicks wanted Beno isn't based on personal stats. There are PG's who could put up bigger numbers but not really fit into the team concept in the same way. We saw how that worked last year with Kidd and Prigs helping the team play winning BB. Kidd was just too old, but the idea was right. Now they want to repeat that kind of chemistry but with a player who should be able to endure an entire season without breaking down like Kidd did. This team needs brains on the court and guys willing to keep the ball moving and making the right decision with the ball.

You started a post by telling me what to do (and what not to do). What kind of response did you expect? Why do I have to stop looking at stats? Maybe you have to stop drastically overrating context?

NYKBocker
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8/8/2013  1:02 PM
DurzoBlint wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
DurzoBlint wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:Very good signing. Beno should start from day one. They should get rid of Felton.

wow, what a very enlightened post. Get rid of a guy that played well and ISN'T overpaid....makes perfect sense if you live in an insane world. Felton is KEEPER.

Felton did play well in spurts last year. Other times he was putrid. He also has a tendency to sulk and cause trouble when he doesn't start. The minute they figure out that Beno is better and should start over Felton then you will see Felton destroy team dynamics. Its in his history. He has done this in Denver and in Portland.

Now your just making stuff up. Felton has been a very good character guy for his career. Larry Brown absolutely loved this guy and he has caused no problems as a Knick. Also, his play dropped when he had the hand injury but, as expected his production increased as his health improved.

Really? You think I am making this stuff up? Google is your friend. Felton was pissed in Denver when he could not supplant Ty Lawson. His time in Portland was a disaster where he ballooned to mini-Curry proportions.

NYY1NYK2
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8/8/2013  1:03 PM
DATE OPP SCORE MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Wed 4/17 @ MIA L 93-105 36 5-8 .625 1-2 .500 2-4 .500 3 14 0 1 4 4 13
Mon 4/15 vsCHI L 84-102 23 2-7 .286 1-2 .500 0-0 .000 0 1 0 0 2 2 5
Sat 4/13 vsBOS L 88-120 35 2-8 .250 1-2 .500 2-2 1.000 5 8 1 0 1 3 7
Wed 4/10 vsMIL W 113-103 47 6-22 .273 1-1 1.000 0-0 .000 4 11 0 2 3 5 13
Sun 4/7 @ CLE L 85-91 43 4-12 .333 0-3 .000 5-5 1.000 4 6 0 2 4 2 13
Fri 4/5 @ CHI L 86-87 36 10-17 .588 3-5 .600 4-4 1.000 5 7 0 2 1 4 27
Wed 4/3 @ SA L 84-98 40 5-11 .455 2-3 .667 2-2 1.000 3 8 0 3 4 4 14
Mon 4/1 @ HOU L 103-111 37 6-10 .600 3-3 1.000 2-2 1.000 1 10 0 1 2 1 17

look at his stats against TOP TALENT
13pts 14 ast against miami
27pts, 7 ast, 5 reb against CHI
14pts, 8 ast against SA
and dont forget 13pts 8ast, against US in 24MINS

ChuckBuck
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8/8/2013  1:07 PM
Can't wait for the Garden chants!

BENO! BENO! BENO!

nixluva
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8/8/2013  1:11 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:He's an OK player. His defensive #s are really bad but he helps on offense. I don't expect him to make a big difference but he's worth the league min.

Man you've got to stop thinking of players in a vacuum. It's like you look at the personal numbers and don't pay attention to the actual impact they can have on the team. I think you have a very flawed take on how this move plays into the way the Knicks will function. For one thing tell me how does Prigs look in the stat sheet as a player in a vacuum? Not good at all!!! However, his actual impact on the way the team plays is greater than his stats and Kidd had a similar positive impact earlier in the season.

Think of what these players do in terms of the Hockey assist before the assist. Often its the pass before the pass that leads to the score that is most important. The Knicks have a very specific way they play based on the flaws of the teams top scorers. We have to find other ways to make the team more efficient and part of that is having guards that can make intelligent decisions with the ball and able to knock down the open 3. Our guards also have to be able to run PnR at a high level but not be shot happy.

Now the Knicks have 2 very smart, high BB IQ PG's again, but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. That's something that worked great for the Knicks and they clearly want to repeat that this year, but to have more endurance at the position than we did last year.


The guy who always overestimates the Knicks win totals by at least ten says I have a very flawed outlook! Thanks!

Typical punk response. Doesn't even begin to address my post but that's OK. Guessing Season win totals mean next to nothing. It's a guess and I tend to guess a bit higher than some. Big deal. What does that have to do with a PLAYER EVALUATION??? Stick to the topic.

The reason the Knicks wanted Beno isn't based on personal stats. There are PG's who could put up bigger numbers but not really fit into the team concept in the same way. We saw how that worked last year with Kidd and Prigs helping the team play winning BB. Kidd was just too old, but the idea was right. Now they want to repeat that kind of chemistry but with a player who should be able to endure an entire season without breaking down like Kidd did. This team needs brains on the court and guys willing to keep the ball moving and making the right decision with the ball.

You started a post by telling me what to do (and what not to do). What kind of response did you expect? Why do I have to stop looking at stats? Maybe you have to stop drastically overrating context?

STILL NOTHING? At least try to address my points or do you just want to insult one aspect of my posting here as if that covers everything i've written about over the years. Nothing else i've ever wrote matters, just my season predictions. Try to address the issue at hand and don't fall into the same lame ass attacks others with less intellect have resorted to when debating with me.

I'm not saying stats are meaningless. My point is that you have to look beyond that with certain players. Some players are more than their stats. ie KG. His intangibles are HUGE. He changes a lockerroom. There are always other things to look at besides individual stats. That was the idea behind Kidd and Prigs proved that as well last year. I think you know i'm right but you can't admit it because I challenged your point. Well grow up. I have my issues with picking season win totals and you have your issue here with seeing anything other than pure statistical value. We can call it even in terms of weaknesses.

Bonn1997
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8/8/2013  1:28 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:He's an OK player. His defensive #s are really bad but he helps on offense. I don't expect him to make a big difference but he's worth the league min.

Man you've got to stop thinking of players in a vacuum. It's like you look at the personal numbers and don't pay attention to the actual impact they can have on the team. I think you have a very flawed take on how this move plays into the way the Knicks will function. For one thing tell me how does Prigs look in the stat sheet as a player in a vacuum? Not good at all!!! However, his actual impact on the way the team plays is greater than his stats and Kidd had a similar positive impact earlier in the season.

Think of what these players do in terms of the Hockey assist before the assist. Often its the pass before the pass that leads to the score that is most important. The Knicks have a very specific way they play based on the flaws of the teams top scorers. We have to find other ways to make the team more efficient and part of that is having guards that can make intelligent decisions with the ball and able to knock down the open 3. Our guards also have to be able to run PnR at a high level but not be shot happy.

Now the Knicks have 2 very smart, high BB IQ PG's again, but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. That's something that worked great for the Knicks and they clearly want to repeat that this year, but to have more endurance at the position than we did last year.


The guy who always overestimates the Knicks win totals by at least ten says I have a very flawed outlook! Thanks!

Typical punk response. Doesn't even begin to address my post but that's OK. Guessing Season win totals mean next to nothing. It's a guess and I tend to guess a bit higher than some. Big deal. What does that have to do with a PLAYER EVALUATION??? Stick to the topic.

The reason the Knicks wanted Beno isn't based on personal stats. There are PG's who could put up bigger numbers but not really fit into the team concept in the same way. We saw how that worked last year with Kidd and Prigs helping the team play winning BB. Kidd was just too old, but the idea was right. Now they want to repeat that kind of chemistry but with a player who should be able to endure an entire season without breaking down like Kidd did. This team needs brains on the court and guys willing to keep the ball moving and making the right decision with the ball.

You started a post by telling me what to do (and what not to do). What kind of response did you expect? Why do I have to stop looking at stats? Maybe you have to stop drastically overrating context?

STILL NOTHING? At least try to address my points or do you just want to insult one aspect of my posting here as if that covers everything i've written about over the years. Nothing else i've ever wrote matters, just my season predictions. Try to address the issue at hand and don't fall into the same lame ass attacks others with less intellect have resorted to when debating with me.

I'm not saying stats are meaningless. My point is that you have to look beyond that with certain players. Some players are more than their stats. ie KG. His intangibles are HUGE. He changes a lockerroom. There are always other things to look at besides individual stats. That was the idea behind Kidd and Prigs proved that as well last year. I think you know i'm right but you can't admit it because I challenged your point. Well grow up. I have my issues with picking season win totals and you have your issue here with seeing anything other than pure statistical value. We can call it even in terms of weaknesses.

No, I simply stopped reading when you said to ignore stats and history and look at vague things like "context." You're just citing a bunch of vague things like "team concept," "chemistry," etc. that make it easier for you to continue your wet dream that every player we acquire will become awesome.

tkf
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8/8/2013  1:41 PM
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
Clean wrote:
tkf wrote:I think beno will be better than prigs... which is why I didn't like giving prigs a dime more..

No one could have thought we would have gotten Beno for the Min. I do think maybe Nate would have been better other signing if we knew we would get Beno later. I don't care about that anymore I am just happy we got a guy I have been wanting for a few years now.

well maybe not beno, but look at the list I posted days ago, there were other options better than prigs IMO.... Dj augustine being one of them..

besides being younger, how is DJ any better?

Speed element, Dj is much faster, and can actually get into the lane and finish, not saying he is great at that, but we don't get that at all from prigs, heck...we don't get enough of that from anyone on our team, especially our guards...

you want to talk pick and roll, DJ is actually good at the pull up jumper off the dribble. one of his few offensive strengths....

defensively he is average, but after watching him blow by our guards last year, it makes you wonder how good defensively we are there as well..

overall, i would take him over prigs not only because he is a decade younger, but he brings another element we need to this team.. youth and speed, and offensively I think he is more of a threat which actually bodes well in the pick and roll.. Isn't that supposed to be a big part of our offense now according to most?

If you want to be honest, all things being equal, which i don't think they are.. why not go younger and cheaper?

so finishing at rim and jump shot % are easy numbers to look up... where did you get your stats that suggest DJ is better in those categories?

Youth and speed are nice when you can put them to good use, but what about effectiveness?

well you can google that martin.. now I will say last year, although DJ got to the lane quite a bit more than pablo he did shoot a poorer percentage, but we do have enough data on DJ to see that historically he is a guy who will get to the basket a lot more. If we take the year before last his shots at the basket more than doubled pablos.. DJ was a bit over 200 shots in the that is almost 100 more shots in the lane than pablo took inside the arc.. that is in the lane and jumpers.. excluding threes..

without getting tied up in to many details. if you honestly believe that pablo is a threat getting into the lane as much as DJ then i can only assume you haven't seen much of DJ.. as far as jumpers.. well it depends where they are on the floor.. the stats are there... DJ is more of a offensive player..we have seen way too many times pablo pass up wide open shots...


for me and for the money.. two things are at play here for me.. the speed of augustine, his ability to get into the lane and his age.....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/8/2013  1:42 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Clean wrote:
tkf wrote:
Clean wrote:So we lose Camby, Novak, Kidd, Cope, Q Rich, Earl Barron

and we gain Beno, MWP, Bargs, Hardaway, CJ Lesie, Jeremy Tyler

This has been an overall good offseason when factoring in the limitations we had on us. MWP covers copes production . Beno is a huge get over the nearly dead Kidd. We got youth for the present and future. If Bargs has anything left I think we can surprise everyone in the east again this year.

we also lose 3 draft picks...

I agree, I hated losing the 3 picks for Bargs and you can see that by my many posts in various other threads on the subject. However, those picks don't help us next year. This is the reason why I did not put them there. This list was purely a talent lost vs talent gained list.

I don't get sweating the picks. One pick is the second rounder from the Thunder for the Brewer trade. It is projected to be the second to last pick in next years draft. The other second rounder is for 2017. Melo will be 33 and Tyson will be 34 when that draft happens and most likely it is a late second rounder again. The first rounder should be a late pick. I am not sure where the Nuggets will be but I think the Knicks will still be a top 3-4 team in the east so the pick should be late.

that is why you should sweat the picks, once we move on from this mess, and tyson and carmelo are gone, you are going to need picks to rebuild with.. don't you think?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/8/2013  1:43 PM
DurzoBlint wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
DurzoBlint wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:Very good signing. Beno should start from day one. They should get rid of Felton.

wow, what a very enlightened post. Get rid of a guy that played well and ISN'T overpaid....makes perfect sense if you live in an insane world. Felton is KEEPER.

Felton did play well in spurts last year. Other times he was putrid. He also has a tendency to sulk and cause trouble when he doesn't start. The minute they figure out that Beno is better and should start over Felton then you will see Felton destroy team dynamics. Its in his history. He has done this in Denver and in Portland.

Now your just making stuff up. Felton has been a very good character guy for his career. Larry Brown absolutely loved this guy and he has caused no problems as a Knick. Also, his play dropped when he had the hand injury but, as expected his production increased as his health improved.

felton didn't want to play behind Ty lawson... Denver did him a favor and moved him to portland..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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8/8/2013  1:44 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:He's an OK player. His defensive #s are really bad but he helps on offense. I don't expect him to make a big difference but he's worth the league min.

Man you've got to stop thinking of players in a vacuum. It's like you look at the personal numbers and don't pay attention to the actual impact they can have on the team. I think you have a very flawed take on how this move plays into the way the Knicks will function. For one thing tell me how does Prigs look in the stat sheet as a player in a vacuum? Not good at all!!! However, his actual impact on the way the team plays is greater than his stats and Kidd had a similar positive impact earlier in the season.

Think of what these players do in terms of the Hockey assist before the assist. Often its the pass before the pass that leads to the score that is most important. The Knicks have a very specific way they play based on the flaws of the teams top scorers. We have to find other ways to make the team more efficient and part of that is having guards that can make intelligent decisions with the ball and able to knock down the open 3. Our guards also have to be able to run PnR at a high level but not be shot happy.

Now the Knicks have 2 very smart, high BB IQ PG's again, but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. That's something that worked great for the Knicks and they clearly want to repeat that this year, but to have more endurance at the position than we did last year.


The guy who always overestimates the Knicks win totals by at least ten says I have a very flawed outlook! Thanks!

Typical punk response. Doesn't even begin to address my post but that's OK. Guessing Season win totals mean next to nothing. It's a guess and I tend to guess a bit higher than some. Big deal. What does that have to do with a PLAYER EVALUATION??? Stick to the topic.

The reason the Knicks wanted Beno isn't based on personal stats. There are PG's who could put up bigger numbers but not really fit into the team concept in the same way. We saw how that worked last year with Kidd and Prigs helping the team play winning BB. Kidd was just too old, but the idea was right. Now they want to repeat that kind of chemistry but with a player who should be able to endure an entire season without breaking down like Kidd did. This team needs brains on the court and guys willing to keep the ball moving and making the right decision with the ball.

You started a post by telling me what to do (and what not to do). What kind of response did you expect? Why do I have to stop looking at stats? Maybe you have to stop drastically overrating context?

STILL NOTHING? At least try to address my points or do you just want to insult one aspect of my posting here as if that covers everything i've written about over the years. Nothing else i've ever wrote matters, just my season predictions. Try to address the issue at hand and don't fall into the same lame ass attacks others with less intellect have resorted to when debating with me.

I'm not saying stats are meaningless. My point is that you have to look beyond that with certain players. Some players are more than their stats. ie KG. His intangibles are HUGE. He changes a lockerroom. There are always other things to look at besides individual stats. That was the idea behind Kidd and Prigs proved that as well last year. I think you know i'm right but you can't admit it because I challenged your point. Well grow up. I have my issues with picking season win totals and you have your issue here with seeing anything other than pure statistical value. We can call it even in terms of weaknesses.

No, I simply stopped reading when you said to ignore stats and history and look at vague things like "context." You're just citing a bunch of vague things like "team concept," "chemistry," etc. that make it easier for you to continue your wet dream that every player we acquire will become awesome.

Still with the lame responses. You seem intent on ignoring the fact that it's well known that Prigs had a positive effect on his teammates despite posting underwhelming personal stats. Kidd also had a positive effect on how the team played when he was on the floor, before he broke down. It's obvious what Grunwald is trying to do with signing Beno. He wants to recreate that kind of positive effect and at the same time it helps the locker room with adding another foreign born player so that they don't feel isolated. It's a very smart move.

Beno knows how to play smart BB. He'll move the ball, can run PnR/PnP, is a good midrange jump shooter and he's got tons of experience playing in a great organization like the Spurs. Those intangible things will really help. You could put a younger and more dynamic PG in there who is capable of scoring better but that doesn't mean that young PG will make the right decision with the ball at the right moment. Individual PG stats won't tell you the whole story with the PG position for the Knicks. As I said it didn't with Prigs and Kidd last year. Both PG's did little things that just lead to wins for the Knicks last year but didn't show up in the box score for them individually.

BigDaddyG
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8/8/2013  1:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/8/2013  2:01 PM
RonRon wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:Very good signing. Beno should start from day one. They should get rid of Felton.

Felton is one of our best penetration with the ability to finish especially with JR possibly missing time, can hit wide open 3pter's, score, and throwing alley hoops to Chandler/Kmart
His weakness is defending a position and isn't a good facilitator vs very good defensive teams that are contenders

Felton is Gary Payton compared to Beno. Both have a tough time staying near quick PGs. That's why I was kind of leaning toward signing Delonte. But who knows, maybe we sign Murray and bring him in as a defender. Also, if THJ comes up to speed, it will put less pressure on Shump to guard wings and he can defend the opposing team's PG.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
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8/8/2013  1:59 PM
tkf wrote:
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
Clean wrote:
tkf wrote:I think beno will be better than prigs... which is why I didn't like giving prigs a dime more..

No one could have thought we would have gotten Beno for the Min. I do think maybe Nate would have been better other signing if we knew we would get Beno later. I don't care about that anymore I am just happy we got a guy I have been wanting for a few years now.

well maybe not beno, but look at the list I posted days ago, there were other options better than prigs IMO.... Dj augustine being one of them..

besides being younger, how is DJ any better?

Speed element, Dj is much faster, and can actually get into the lane and finish, not saying he is great at that, but we don't get that at all from prigs, heck...we don't get enough of that from anyone on our team, especially our guards...

you want to talk pick and roll, DJ is actually good at the pull up jumper off the dribble. one of his few offensive strengths....

defensively he is average, but after watching him blow by our guards last year, it makes you wonder how good defensively we are there as well..

overall, i would take him over prigs not only because he is a decade younger, but he brings another element we need to this team.. youth and speed, and offensively I think he is more of a threat which actually bodes well in the pick and roll.. Isn't that supposed to be a big part of our offense now according to most?

If you want to be honest, all things being equal, which i don't think they are.. why not go younger and cheaper?

so finishing at rim and jump shot % are easy numbers to look up... where did you get your stats that suggest DJ is better in those categories?

Youth and speed are nice when you can put them to good use, but what about effectiveness?

well you can google that martin.. now I will say last year, although DJ got to the lane quite a bit more than pablo he did shoot a poorer percentage, but we do have enough data on DJ to see that historically he is a guy who will get to the basket a lot more. If we take the year before last his shots at the basket more than doubled pablos.. DJ was a bit over 200 shots in the that is almost 100 more shots in the lane than pablo took inside the arc.. that is in the lane and jumpers.. excluding threes..

without getting tied up in to many details. if you honestly believe that pablo is a threat getting into the lane as much as DJ then i can only assume you haven't seen much of DJ.. as far as jumpers.. well it depends where they are on the floor.. the stats are there... DJ is more of a offensive player..we have seen way too many times pablo pass up wide open shots...


for me and for the money.. two things are at play here for me.. the speed of augustine, his ability to get into the lane and his age.....

I asked cause I don't even think you looked it up: you made the statement and I don't think you can back it up with stats. Put them down and stake your claim. I googled and found that Prigs has a far higher percentage of makes than DJ.

If you like younger and faster without regards to making team better etc, Rucker Park is for you. Indiana gave this guy the boot.

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TheGame
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8/8/2013  2:00 PM
The past two years have shown that we need 3 pgs, so this was a welcomed signing. Beno is a decent pg. For the minimum, we could not do much better. We have a solid team. It will be up to the coaching staff to pull this all together to make it work. hopefully, AB and Stat return to a high-level of play and we can make a deep playoff push.
Trust the Process
tkf
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8/8/2013  2:13 PM
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
martin wrote:
tkf wrote:
Clean wrote:
tkf wrote:I think beno will be better than prigs... which is why I didn't like giving prigs a dime more..

No one could have thought we would have gotten Beno for the Min. I do think maybe Nate would have been better other signing if we knew we would get Beno later. I don't care about that anymore I am just happy we got a guy I have been wanting for a few years now.

well maybe not beno, but look at the list I posted days ago, there were other options better than prigs IMO.... Dj augustine being one of them..

besides being younger, how is DJ any better?

Speed element, Dj is much faster, and can actually get into the lane and finish, not saying he is great at that, but we don't get that at all from prigs, heck...we don't get enough of that from anyone on our team, especially our guards...

you want to talk pick and roll, DJ is actually good at the pull up jumper off the dribble. one of his few offensive strengths....

defensively he is average, but after watching him blow by our guards last year, it makes you wonder how good defensively we are there as well..

overall, i would take him over prigs not only because he is a decade younger, but he brings another element we need to this team.. youth and speed, and offensively I think he is more of a threat which actually bodes well in the pick and roll.. Isn't that supposed to be a big part of our offense now according to most?

If you want to be honest, all things being equal, which i don't think they are.. why not go younger and cheaper?

so finishing at rim and jump shot % are easy numbers to look up... where did you get your stats that suggest DJ is better in those categories?

Youth and speed are nice when you can put them to good use, but what about effectiveness?

well you can google that martin.. now I will say last year, although DJ got to the lane quite a bit more than pablo he did shoot a poorer percentage, but we do have enough data on DJ to see that historically he is a guy who will get to the basket a lot more. If we take the year before last his shots at the basket more than doubled pablos.. DJ was a bit over 200 shots in the that is almost 100 more shots in the lane than pablo took inside the arc.. that is in the lane and jumpers.. excluding threes..

without getting tied up in to many details. if you honestly believe that pablo is a threat getting into the lane as much as DJ then i can only assume you haven't seen much of DJ.. as far as jumpers.. well it depends where they are on the floor.. the stats are there... DJ is more of a offensive player..we have seen way too many times pablo pass up wide open shots...


for me and for the money.. two things are at play here for me.. the speed of augustine, his ability to get into the lane and his age.....

I asked cause I don't even think you looked it up: you made the statement and I don't think you can back it up with stats. Put them down and stake your claim. I googled and found that Prigs has a far higher percentage of makes than DJ.

If you like younger and faster without regards to making team better etc, Rucker Park is for you. Indiana gave this guy the boot.

actually I did martin, and as I told you, DJ gets to the rim more.. I will make is more simple.. I will take the playoff numbers for you.. Dj got 20 shots in the paint to pabl's 12.. both shot roughly around 30%. but DJ also was able to get up more midrange jumper and hit them... pablo just didn't take many shots.. but let the eye test do this for you martin.. none of our guards were able to stay in front of DJ.... yet we had trouble getting into the lane vs the pacers...

indy didn't give him the boot he left to play with the raptors, he was a free agent... now beno was given the boot being traded around like a hot potato over the last few years, yet this board is going gaga over him.. so what gives?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
CrushAlot
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8/8/2013  2:17 PM
tkf wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Clean wrote:
tkf wrote:
Clean wrote:So we lose Camby, Novak, Kidd, Cope, Q Rich, Earl Barron

and we gain Beno, MWP, Bargs, Hardaway, CJ Lesie, Jeremy Tyler

This has been an overall good offseason when factoring in the limitations we had on us. MWP covers copes production . Beno is a huge get over the nearly dead Kidd. We got youth for the present and future. If Bargs has anything left I think we can surprise everyone in the east again this year.

we also lose 3 draft picks...

I agree, I hated losing the 3 picks for Bargs and you can see that by my many posts in various other threads on the subject. However, those picks don't help us next year. This is the reason why I did not put them there. This list was purely a talent lost vs talent gained list.

I don't get sweating the picks. One pick is the second rounder from the Thunder for the Brewer trade. It is projected to be the second to last pick in next years draft. The other second rounder is for 2017. Melo will be 33 and Tyson will be 34 when that draft happens and most likely it is a late second rounder again. The first rounder should be a late pick. I am not sure where the Nuggets will be but I think the Knicks will still be a top 3-4 team in the east so the pick should be late.

that is why you should sweat the picks, once we move on from this mess, and tyson and carmelo are gone, you are going to need picks to rebuild with.. don't you think?

It is pretty hard to rebuild with late first round picks. It is almost impossible to rebuild with late second round picks. The 2016 pick right to swap for Denver pretty much insures that the Knicks were picking really late even with Denver's offseason moves.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Bonn1997
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8/8/2013  2:17 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:He's an OK player. His defensive #s are really bad but he helps on offense. I don't expect him to make a big difference but he's worth the league min.

Man you've got to stop thinking of players in a vacuum. It's like you look at the personal numbers and don't pay attention to the actual impact they can have on the team. I think you have a very flawed take on how this move plays into the way the Knicks will function. For one thing tell me how does Prigs look in the stat sheet as a player in a vacuum? Not good at all!!! However, his actual impact on the way the team plays is greater than his stats and Kidd had a similar positive impact earlier in the season.

Think of what these players do in terms of the Hockey assist before the assist. Often its the pass before the pass that leads to the score that is most important. The Knicks have a very specific way they play based on the flaws of the teams top scorers. We have to find other ways to make the team more efficient and part of that is having guards that can make intelligent decisions with the ball and able to knock down the open 3. Our guards also have to be able to run PnR at a high level but not be shot happy.

Now the Knicks have 2 very smart, high BB IQ PG's again, but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. That's something that worked great for the Knicks and they clearly want to repeat that this year, but to have more endurance at the position than we did last year.


The guy who always overestimates the Knicks win totals by at least ten says I have a very flawed outlook! Thanks!

Typical punk response. Doesn't even begin to address my post but that's OK. Guessing Season win totals mean next to nothing. It's a guess and I tend to guess a bit higher than some. Big deal. What does that have to do with a PLAYER EVALUATION??? Stick to the topic.

The reason the Knicks wanted Beno isn't based on personal stats. There are PG's who could put up bigger numbers but not really fit into the team concept in the same way. We saw how that worked last year with Kidd and Prigs helping the team play winning BB. Kidd was just too old, but the idea was right. Now they want to repeat that kind of chemistry but with a player who should be able to endure an entire season without breaking down like Kidd did. This team needs brains on the court and guys willing to keep the ball moving and making the right decision with the ball.

You started a post by telling me what to do (and what not to do). What kind of response did you expect? Why do I have to stop looking at stats? Maybe you have to stop drastically overrating context?

STILL NOTHING? At least try to address my points or do you just want to insult one aspect of my posting here as if that covers everything i've written about over the years. Nothing else i've ever wrote matters, just my season predictions. Try to address the issue at hand and don't fall into the same lame ass attacks others with less intellect have resorted to when debating with me.

I'm not saying stats are meaningless. My point is that you have to look beyond that with certain players. Some players are more than their stats. ie KG. His intangibles are HUGE. He changes a lockerroom. There are always other things to look at besides individual stats. That was the idea behind Kidd and Prigs proved that as well last year. I think you know i'm right but you can't admit it because I challenged your point. Well grow up. I have my issues with picking season win totals and you have your issue here with seeing anything other than pure statistical value. We can call it even in terms of weaknesses.

No, I simply stopped reading when you said to ignore stats and history and look at vague things like "context." You're just citing a bunch of vague things like "team concept," "chemistry," etc. that make it easier for you to continue your wet dream that every player we acquire will become awesome.

Still with the lame responses. You seem intent on ignoring the fact that it's well known that Prigs had a positive effect on his teammates despite posting underwhelming personal stats. Kidd also had a positive effect on how the team played when he was on the floor, before he broke down. It's obvious what Grunwald is trying to do with signing Beno. He wants to recreate that kind of positive effect and at the same time it helps the locker room with adding another foreign born player so that they don't feel isolated. It's a very smart move.

Beno knows how to play smart BB. He'll move the ball, can run PnR/PnP, is a good midrange jump shooter and he's got tons of experience playing in a great organization like the Spurs. Those intangible things will really help. You could put a younger and more dynamic PG in there who is capable of scoring better but that doesn't mean that young PG will make the right decision with the ball at the right moment. Individual PG stats won't tell you the whole story with the PG position for the Knicks. As I said it didn't with Prigs and Kidd last year. Both PG's did little things that just lead to wins for the Knicks last year but didn't show up in the box score for them individually.


No, I would readily agree that Pablo and Kidd played well (and the stats actually *do* support that). I also never criticized Beno's offensive game.
nixluva
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8/8/2013  2:18 PM
Beno is a STEAL at the minimum! He was making $7 mil last year. He definitely didn't come here for the money. He came here for a chance to win and he has a legit chance to play meaningful minutes. The Knicks needed a brain on the floor so that Felton can focus on what he does best. Felton isn't a pure PG, he's more of a SG and thank God he learned how to run PnR under MDA or else he'd really be exposed for his lack of court vision. In any event this allows the Knicks to have much improved ball movement outside of the ISO plays we run so much of. Our Bigs need good PG play. This will help to support AB to get back to his full potential. Same goes for STAT whenever he's in there. STAT needs good passing PG's. Prigs and Beno should be able to keep feeding our finishers and shooters.
Bonn1997
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8/8/2013  2:20 PM
nixluva wrote:Beno is a STEAL at the minimum! He was making $7 mil last year. He definitely didn't come here for the money. He came here for a chance to win and he has a legit chance to play meaningful minutes. The Knicks needed a brain on the floor so that Felton can focus on what he does best. Felton isn't a pure PG, he's more of a SG and thank God he learned how to run PnR under MDA or else he'd really be exposed for his lack of court vision. In any event this allows the Knicks to have much improved ball movement outside of the ISO plays we run so much of. Our Bigs need good PG play. This will help to support AB to get back to his full potential. Same goes for STAT whenever he's in there. STAT needs good passing PG's. Prigs and Beno should be able to keep feeding our finishers and shooters.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a steal but I did say he was worth signing for the min
ChuckBuck
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8/8/2013  2:22 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Beno is a STEAL at the minimum! He was making $7 mil last year. He definitely didn't come here for the money. He came here for a chance to win and he has a legit chance to play meaningful minutes. The Knicks needed a brain on the floor so that Felton can focus on what he does best. Felton isn't a pure PG, he's more of a SG and thank God he learned how to run PnR under MDA or else he'd really be exposed for his lack of court vision. In any event this allows the Knicks to have much improved ball movement outside of the ISO plays we run so much of. Our Bigs need good PG play. This will help to support AB to get back to his full potential. Same goes for STAT whenever he's in there. STAT needs good passing PG's. Prigs and Beno should be able to keep feeding our finishers and shooters.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a steal but I did say he was worth signing for the min

What would be considered a steal for the vet min in Bonn's playbook? Steve Nash circa 2005?

Knicks Sign Beno Udrih

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